Divine Serpent man only?
 

I noticed Nature is the only path in which you can't get a stating level 3 pretender in the generally available templates.

Why no lvl3 in the toolkit? Is the nature bless effect "better" than the others?

I'm sure there are many other examples of arbitarily restricted pretenders.

But Man is hardly a weak race, so it seemed odd.

Anyone else find pretenders they think should be more widely available? (i.e. thematically appropriate, but not listed?)

Or have a theory as to why this might be?

Especially nature oriented nations like Pangaea and Machaka (and C'tis?) should have DS as an option, I would think.

Thanks for all replies,

Rabe


level-3 pretenders
------

moloch
titan
nereid/son of sea-aquatic
cyclops
oracle
divine serpent Man ONLY?
PoD/Lich
FoB

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

I believe it has less to do with balance and more to do with the historical/thematic element.

C'tis should get anything reptile. I also wouldn't feel too bad about Mictlan having access to the DS. I'd hope they would allow every race a higher dominion (3-4) and higher starting magic (3) in at least one field, so that they can more appropriately use some of those blessing effects.

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cernunnos was a celtic god sometimes represented by a ramsheaded serpent. That's the main reason why only Man has it.

OTOH there are some gods that aren't restricted that should be (thematically). JK has disallowed me from restricting gods too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . Lacking in mythological education he comes up with the most disturbingly unthematic pretender designs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif . Fortunately I can bypass the problem by adding more gods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point. Pretender magic levels are older than bless effects, so this has not been considered.

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

Yes I know, I'm horrendously subtle in bringing up such things. Don't let one sneak by you.

*Puts a "Good Point" sticker on his chart*

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

so does anyone in this discussion have any specific designs to offer? not just good god designs but things that are thematic. I would love to offer one but Im drawing a blank on a Man deity who would start as 3 nature. Maybe "Green Man" (please dont laugh, there really is such a thing)
http://www.greenmanpress.com/gmplogo.gif

[ January 18, 2004, 15:13: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

Well I think that the Divine Serpent is fine for Man.

Some things that are Irish in base that might be used for Man (since it's primarily Celtic).

Fomorians
Diedre of Sorrows

Perhaps not Pretenders as such, since I don't have enough mytholgical information on them. Just some things that might have some historical reference where they could be used as either pretenders or heroes.

... Hohoho Green Giant.

[ January 18, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

Hmm.. one new pretender did occur to me, an Eagle Spirit from native american mythology. It could be relatively weak physically but be flying and ethereal. Air and astral seem the most liekly choices for magic, though nature could also work. I was also thinking it might be thematic as well as fun to give it vastness-like ten province flying.

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

I smell an informal competition around the corner. Design a Nation specific pretender! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I was saving this one for a possible mod for Mictlan but couldn't find any images to use for it. I'll just toss it in here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Coatlicue (nabbed from Aztec mythology)

Coatlicue, whose name means "Serpent Skirt," is a mighty earth demigoddess with powers over both life and death. Coatlicue's appearance is so horrible only the bravest of warriors dares face her wrath. She wears skirt made out of living snakes and around her neck lies a string of hearts torn from her victims. Long sharp claws adorn her hands and feet. Coatlicue is a goddess thirsty for human sacrifices.

Stats are yet to be balanced but she is a Titan pretender, size 5. Cause fear +8, Claw, Claw, Snake Skirt (Same stats as Medusa Snake Hair). Earth 3, Nature 1 and Death 1. Dominion 2. Cost 125.

[ January 18, 2004, 17:41: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

I always thought Ermor should be able to use the dracolich....I know it turns into a bog mummy which is a Jotun thing, but maybe Ermors Version could turn into a lich? ;p

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

If I were being exceptionally silly I might suggest a pretender based on Ratatosk, for Vanheim or Jotunheim. Not terribly imposing...

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

I'd like to see more in theme pretenders for R'lyeh (based on void summons maybe). Cthulhu mythos has many interesting creatures. Things like son of sea and nerid just dont fit.

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

Dierdriu of the Sorrows would be a really strange choice. She was the most beautiful woman of her day, but had no other superhuman traits than that.

The Fomoriach/Fomorians were deformed sea monsters. They drove away one race of man from Ireland (the Nemedians) who would later return as the Fir Bolg to win their land back. The Tuatha de Danaan also warred against the Fomoriach after they'd displaced the Fir Bolg as rulers of most of Ireland.

(I've got a Fomoriach mod planned, actually.)

The Greenman is a major figure in modern psuedo-pagan worship. You'll see his image around quite a lot if you come into contact with anything even closely related to paganism, Celtic studies, or even the bastardized stuff they try to pass off as Celtic in trendy New Age stores. It would make a rather good Pretender choice, IMO, and would definitely have strong Nature magic.

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

A Poseidon-like for Atlantis (and Arco?).

I've made a Warrior King mod for Ulm, though it isn't perfect due to some mod limits. One for Man could work too (a King Arthur type).

Seems like Allfather would be somewhat appropriate for Ulm as well.

I'd like to see a Hammadryad queen for Pangaea.

Maybe some sort of nutso High Inquisitor for Marignon?

An evil seductress for Ermor (succubus ability on pretender)?

A giant death spirit for Ermor with reaper scythe?

... or just, add more complete modding abilities for pretenders (leadership, path costs, dominion level, ability to add pretender choices and link them to themes, and add/remove the availability of them) to let us go nuts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

PvK

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

Can we get a water-path pretender for man?

While we're at it .. there aren't much landlubbers left with a skill in water .. I really miss the Daughter of the River.

Why was she changed to Mother of Tuatha / Lady of Luck (which man doesn't get as well?)

And the Mother of Tuatha is correct as far as the game-logic is concerned (glamor = illusions = air), but is thoroughly wrong as far as mythology goes. Danoine Sidhe (which are in fact Tuatha de Dannan, or Danoine, childs of the godess DANA, also called the "seely sidhe" ?sp?) don't have that much to do with Air Magic, but with nature, water, earth, blood and death. Fire and Air is more the way of the Fomorians ("unseely sidhe" ?sp?), which are somehow related to the Alfar, or Alben (which gave the name to Tolkiens Elven Folk .. very much like the Dwarves from Tyrol - King Laurin and his Rose Garden - where the templates for . guess whom? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

So .. can we get another water-path pretender besides the Frost Father, especially but not exclusivly, for Man?

A.

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

The daughter is still there, but she has been restricted by the thematic-god-restrictor (myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) to a few nations.

* Edit: Air magic is the way illusions and glamour is represented in dominions. Thats the main reason tuatha has air magic. Mythological magicians have powers over most aspects of life, nature, emotions, death, fate, elements, etc. *

[ January 18, 2004, 22:23: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now your talking, excellent ideas...Ermor with it's very different themes shoud have a few more Pretender choices! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

Yes. How about a large black ethereal cloud with drain life attacks? Or a levitating skull? Or an immobile graveyard and/or crypt? Or a giant pit with foul vapors coming out of it?

PvK

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

I want them all...excellent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

Im glad others think Green Man would work tofill the 3nature need of Man.

I would also like to see something more "animal" for Pangaea. It has lords of the bacchanal and lords of the plant. I wonder if the Lord of the Wild Hunt would work?

Subnote. I think that one guys cornucopia could have been more weaponish. How about filling the enemys bellys till they cant move (+20 fatigure per hit?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Who is on the list that doesnt have 1 or 2 special gods?

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

I know the Vastness is based on Yog-Sothoth, but really, he was always my favorite Cthulhu god.

As for Man... well, hmmm. I don't know about nature magic. Given the druidic elements a Version of Pan would be appropriate. (Do they get the fertility god?) But a definitely perfect theme god for them would be the High King. Regular size, not a good mage, but with massive attack and defense skill - possibly a special weapon 'Excalibur' since you're modding, although I don't know if you can give someone varying levels of regen. Should be pretty massive on him, since Excalibur was supposed to protect him from harm. Putting it on the weapon would be cute, too, since if you gave him another weapon - poof, no more regen. Maybe if his dominion is high he spontaneously generates knights, like the ghost king does ghosts.

Sorry. I can come up with these bloody things all day. It's ideas that suit a particular need that are harder. And hardest of all, of course - actually coding these guys.

Re: Divine Serpent man only?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sort of like these guys?

New Unit:
Evil Mist (Base creature: Evil Mist)

HP: 45 Str: 5
Prot: 0 Att: 16
Mrl: 30 Def: 16
Mrst: 18 Prec: 9
Enc: 0 AP: 18

Resistances:

Fire: -50 Cold: 100
Shock: 50 Poison: 100

God, Magical, Amphibian 2, Ethereal, Permanent Mistform
Chill 6, Fear 0

Magic: Air 1, Water 2
Weapons: Suffocate, Freeze

*********************************

New Unit:
Darkness (Base creature: Darkness)

HP: 30 Str: 5
Prot: 0 Att: 16
Mrl: 30 Def: 16
Mrst: 18 Prec: 10
Enc: 0 AP: 18

Resistances:

Fire: -50 Cold: 100
Shock: 0 Poison: 100

God, Undead, Magical, Ethereal, Fear 13

Magic: Death 3
Weapons: Dominate

*********************************