A Song of Ice and Fire
 

I dont know if anybody has read this amazing (unfinished) book series of George R.R. Martin, if not i really encourage you to do it!!.Its so popular that it already has a card game, a board game and they are preparing the rpg.

The fact is that i am preparing a mod based on these novels, and maybe someone that is also a fan wants to help http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

My idea is to prepare a map/scenario+mod, to reach as much as possible the feeling of the 'Game of Thrones' universe. I have done the map part and i am focusing in the scenario stuff.When im done i'll do the nation/unit modding.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

I like it.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

George R.R. Martin is one of the best fantasy writers out there right now. While he has heroes, the all have flaws http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Aw nuts! I thought you started another AAR. Thanks for the tip though. Always good to find more excuses to read books.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

I thought it was pretty good. But I have not bought the sequel... it (the first one) has a big, epic scope, but he makes his characters suffer a lot.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Ya I was thinking the thread would be a story about Caelum in the 2.06 patch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Sounds like a good idea for a mod, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

A mod in this theme would be welcome. I can only agree with UNIVAC. The series is a very good read.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Gasp! Be still my beating heart! Can it be that winter is coming? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... yes, as a matter of fact, winter IS coming. Dominions needs Dire Wolves... they were so cute and cuddly-sounding!

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Valar morghulis


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...but there was only one direwolf for each child, not hordes of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Wolves? Dominions II needs penguins. Penguins....of DOOM. Swarms of enraged, berserker penguins, swarming across the frozen fields to peck their enemies to death.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Awwww... go play Age of Wonders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The word you use to make that sound cool is "gritty." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

GRRM certainly has that grittyness, in spades. Things certainly don't get any nicer in the next couple of books, believe you me.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice understatement ...

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

George R.R. Martin is the only one fantasy writers I know in whose books the future is unpredictable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif His other books, for example Windhaven and Fever Dream are very good too. And some old short story (Sandkings?) is almost a scenario for some strategy game (Warlords?) :-)

But does anybody know another author of similar quality?

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

As Cherry said, the Riftwar Saga by Raymond E. Fiest is very good and I enjoy that series along with his others, though not as much as the original. I mean, who has the balls to call their hero Pug? Not many. Though Milamber was a good change, you got to love ol' Pug. Macros is very good as well.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Robin Hobb, David Gemmel, David Drake, Raymond Feist. All quite good, and their stories are not always predictable. But GRRM, unlike any other author I know, truly isn't attached to his characters. heh

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

I have a lot of trouble finding good fantasy books, but I may try out some of those. Recently, the only one I liked enough to buy a sequel was Terry Goodkind (Wizard's First Rule) but I didn't finish the second book... Other than that, and Feist's first two books... The Last Unicorn (Peter Beagle) is exceptional.

SF, on the other hand, is another matter. I really liked David Brin's first Uplift trilogy (and more recently, Kiln People), and Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon The Deep". Joe Haldeman's "Forever War" is excellent as well. And we mustn't forget Niven, but I expect most people here would have read Ringworld... at least the ones who came from the SEIV forum=)

Does the Riftwar series stay high quality after the initial two books?

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

The 3rd Book is more emphasis on the lesser characters in Arutha and Jimmy the Hand and has alot of connectivity to why things happened in the way they happened. The 4th book is excellent and has massive battles and fantastic richness to it. I enjoyed the entire series.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In a word: yes!

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

By the way, a SF book by G.R.R. Martin called Tuf Voyaging, a set of short stories about the character Tuf, is memorable.

As for other fantasy works that are good, try the David Eddings single novel The Redemption of Athalus. Arguably his best work, and one of the finest pieces of fantasy lit I have ever read. It distills the best of Eddings' wit, what normally takes him 3-5 books to accomplish (such as the Belgariad, Mallorien, or Sparhawk novels), into a single most-pleasant book to read.

Of course, no list of fantasy would be complete without mention of The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by S. Donaldson.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

David Eddings left me a little cold. Especially the trivial 'boys and girls' talk along with stereotypes that he portrayed. Though I did like Athalus quite a bit, before the woman got a hold of him.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The trivial 'talk' is trademark Eddings. (I also think that's the influence of Leigh Edddings, his writing partner.) He specializes in the byplay between his characters. He does it to death in the Belgariad (Silk, Polgara, anyone?) and his other 3-5 volume sets. The Athalus novel is short enough (700+ pages), and has enough action, that you don't get sick of it as you do with his other works. However, since major characters in his works are gods, or demigods, his stories bear a slight resemblence to Dominions (if you look at it from a certain perspective).

I do highly recommend David Gemmell though. You won't be disappointed with any of his books. Deep characters, background, et cetera. And they are fast-paced.

Raymond Feist's stories are even deeper, but by the same token not 'casual reads'.

The series by David Drake that I recommend begins with the book Lord of the Isles. Good stuff. Not quite George Martin-caliber, but then only Feist comes close to that, IMHO.

Another set of books you can't go wrong with is L.E. Modesitt's "fantasy" books dealing with Recluce. I put fantasy in quotes because the deep backdrop of the story (without giving anything away) is actually science fiction. But you have to read about 5-7 books into the series, to a set of prequel novels, before you discover that the fantasy world he's set up isn't fantasy at all. But it reads and feels like fantasy, which is all that really matters. Also, unlike many other authors, the characters in his series change as the series takes you through different times and places on the world. Half the series is even from the point of view of the "enemy" (white) wizards, given that the series begins with the black (aka good) wizards. Just goes to show that perspective makes a huge difference. There's a lesson in there, somewhere. heh

My fantasy/SF library numbers over 3000 books, so I can give an opinion on most anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Go for Wheel Of Time, by Robert Jordan, if you have a few spare months to read. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Great story, brilliant writing. Very twisted story, too, though the main characters are a bit too flat for my taste (they're all governed by two or three emotions each), but he more than makes it up with the tons of supporting chars.


Anyhow, for a Song Of Fire And Ice mod, have a look at the great boardgame conVersion which came out autumn Last year. Dominions players should like it, it's all about causing your opponents' armies to retreat, and not to extinguish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

I second (or third, or...) the recomendation on G.R.R.Martin, A Song of Ice & Fire is IMO the best Epic fantasy series currently in development.
Excellent characters, plot & credible World-building.
Nº4, 'A Feast for Crows', should be out this year.
His old shorter works like 'Fevre Dream' or 'Windhaven' did not catch me so much.

I cannot stand D. Eddings same as Zen, all that teasing each other from the characters while they are saving the world gets old after a while.

Terry Goodkind is a Robert Jordan hack, and that sado-masochist fetish he has doesn't attract me much.

Robert Jordan started Wheel of Time very strong (although nº1, The Eye of the World draws from Tolkien a bit too much), but he's lost control of the story in the latter books. Books 1-5 up to 'Lord of Chaos' are very enjoyable however, if slightly soap operish.

Light reads, good to introduct your kids to Fantasy literature: Terry Brooks (Shanara) & Margaret Weiss (Dragonlance).

If you like swords & sorcery stuff you cannot go wrong with the original Conan stories, by Robert L Howard.

A writer that is gaining momentum is Steven Erikson (Malazan Empire books), he's up to nº4. His work is almost archeologic in scope, with an ancient world walked by multiple races & Gods, and the power levels are slightly out of control IMO (basically, everybody is an ascendant, powerful mage/warrior or a human capable of dealing with the previous). It's fantasy on steroids, entertaining anyway if you do not get lost following the stories.
Each book has a kind of self-contained story, which is kind of refreshing in this age of long waits until the next installment in a series.

Cheers,
Pepe

edit: typo with names

[ January 22, 2004, 15:09: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMO, it's highly boring. And I'm a patient reader, so that's saying a lot about just how much of a chore these books are. If anyone dislikes Eddings, then run, don't walk, away from Jordan. 10 books thus far and he's still at least 2 books away from a wrap. It's obvious he's writing these books just to make money for himself and his publsher. (Lots of money.) The story just drags on, and on, and on. Dozens of admittedly interesting and well-developed characters, like Eddings (only more so). The story is big on telling you what the characters think, but they don't do much. Just talk, debate, ponder, and drag their butts occasionally someplace else to talk some more to each other.

Fair warning.

[ January 20, 2004, 10:55: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

George R R Martin is great. Other very good writers are:
Steven Erikson
Robin Hobb
Raymond E Feist
J V Jones
Harry Turtledove (Not really fantasy)
Peter F Hamilton (Sci-Fi)

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMO, it's highly boring. And I'm a patient reader, so that's saying a lot about just how much of a chore these books are. If anyone dislikes Eddings, then run, don't walk, away from Jordan. 10 books thus far and he's still at least 2 books away from a wrap. It's obvious he's writing these books just to make money for himself and his publsher. (Lots of money.) The story just drags on, and on, and on. Dozens of admittedly interesting and well-developed characters, like Eddings (only more so). The story is big on telling you what the characters think, but they don't do much. Just talk, debate, ponder, and drag their butts occasionally someplace else to talk some more to each other.

Fair warning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your milage may vary. Wheel of Time isn't action/adventure, it's a drama with action/adventure in it. And it doesn't change the fact that the Wheel of Time is a continuous, consistantly good narative.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um... What sado-masochist fetish? (heh heh) You're not fantasizing about Mord-Sith between chapters now, are you?

I've got a strange thing with Goodkind's Sword of Truth. It keeps dropping off my 'Good Fantasy' list between books, and it keeps rocketting back up it every time I read a new one. I guess the conclusion is while the weight of opinion wears me down, the product will speak for itself. Just finished 'Naked Empire', and am still thinking 'Cool. That man knows how to turn a phrase into a meaning.'

Or you could just ignore all the white noise and bear in mind that nowhere in the words 'Sword of Truth' are the words 'Wheel of Time', and sit down and enjoy the book without trying to create new analogies.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen. He's even better than Martin, especially if you like a world with loads of magic and non-human races. Much more "fantastic" than A Song of Ice and Fire, and just as gritty.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A bit of an overstatement. There are several central human characters without superhuman abilities. Whiskeyjack, Crokus/Cutter, Dujek Onearm, Murillio, etc.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Quote:

Your milage may vary. Wheel of Time isn't action/adventure, it's a drama with action/adventure in it. And it doesn't change the fact that the Wheel of Time is a continuous, consistantly good narative.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">WoT was enjoyable up to (and mostly including) Lord of Chaos, but after that the story just got completely bogged down.

[ January 21, 2004, 13:16: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">WoT was enjoyable up to (and mostly including) Lord of Chaos, but after that the story just got completely bogged down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A drama unfolding at a glacial pace. Lord of Chaos is book 6 (of 10 thus far). Given that his books average 800+ pages, that's well over 3000 more pages one has to endure just to discover the story isn't any closer to the climax he started towards 8000+ pages earlier.

It's unreasonable to expect your children (if you have any) to be born, grow up, and go off to college before this silly story reaches a conclusion. Which could well happen at Jordan's pacing.

Have I beaten this (slowly) dying horse dead yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

I liked A Song of Ice and Fire for a while. Then my favorite characters died, or suddenly became less appealing as they started doing horrible things. There's a few exceptions, but not enough to make me want to buy A Feast for Crows. It's just too depressing to read that story.

I think Robert Jordan is the best fantasy author around today. But why limit yourself to fantasy?

If you can find it you should read "The Long Run" by Daniel Keys Moran. My favorite book, bar none.
It's a near-future sci-fi story. The world was united under one government after world war 3. The main character is a genetically enigneered thief and hacker whose "family" was wiped out by a nuclear weapon. His apartment came with a bazooka. The bad guy is french.

Not sure what else to say without spoiling the story. Read it!

Oh, and it works quite well without reading the other books in the series. There's different main characters and the first and third books suffer slightly because of some strange aspects in the story. They're still damn good, but if you want to start reading Moran start on The Long Run.

[ January 21, 2004, 16:53: Message edited by: mr.white ]

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're obviously not a hardcore interaction roleplayer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I love Jordan's work because of the intricate character interactions, the brilliant descriptions of lands and situations (his combat descriptions are par to non), and the very cool dialogues.

Who needs action!


By the way, check out "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman for a current-era-fantasy story of very dark origin... Just finished reading it. Wow. It even has some (minor) action. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You haven't read House of Chains yet have you 8)

With regards to Jordan's work - IMO it is an excellent fantasy series that peaks at book 4 and then begins a gradual slide down into a deep pit of aimless tedium. Book 10, Crossroads of Mediocrity, managed to have an entire chapter devoted to one of the main characters having a bath and the *entire book* managed to not advance a single outstanding plot line in the slightest.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Song of Ice and Fire, is my favorite fantasy series to date. Game of Thrones specifically has to go down as one of the finest fantasy novels ever.

Raymond Fiest is my second favorite author. I have every book of his related to Krondor and loved every one. I was a little dissapointed that he went with the Eastern Empire for his new book, but in the end I loved it, as I did with every one of his other books.

Wheel of time was good for a while, but it kept going, and going, and going. His Last few books were just really long run-on-sentances. Its like watching the other 20 hours of footage for a 30 min reality TV episode.

Terry Goodkind must be taking estragen. I am sorry, but I really can't get into a book where the hero weeps about everything. Actually it wouldn't be that bad, except every character weeps. Its like his shrink told him to write a book for therapy, and he his dealing with unresolved issues with his mother.

When I was a kid I really liked Robert Asprin and Piers Anthony. I still like Robert Asprin, I am glad he picked up the Myth series again. I also digged the Shanarra series. The new book was quite good.

But the only other work besides Song of Ice and Fire that even comes close are the various "Sagas" from Raymod Fiest.

[ January 22, 2004, 02:14: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You haven't read House of Chains yet have you 8)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif If you mean

*SPOILER WARNING*
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the ascension of the Bridgeburners, for long a time before it happened they were just soldiers. Also, only one of the characters I mentioned is a Bridgeburner, so... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 13:05: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

A little bit off topic, but the recent "Game of Thrones" boardgame is excellent. Simultaneous orders and supply similar to Diplomacy, but a much better game overall.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
 

Also little of topic, but Sierra's Betrayal at Krondor (excellent rpg that I unfortunately have never finished (3! times my computer crashed and had to be formatted). It's free nowadays.