Unit Spreadsheet
 

Has anyone compiled a list of units/stats? I'd like to do some analysis of Jotunheim, but don't care to waste time compiling data if it has already been done. Something like:

neutral units
jotun units
abysia units

e.g.

heavy infantry: gold/res/supplies/att/def/armor/mvmnt/etc.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

the closest thing is a game where you can see all the units.
http://www.freewebs.com/sunray_dom2/

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

Sunray actually has some national unit spreadsheets as well.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

Thanks--there are spreadsheets for several of the races on this site. Exactly what I wanted!

I will check their veracity first--as they are based on Dom I. Then I will analyse the Jotunn as compared to the generic units (militia, light infantry, heavy infantry, archers, lt cav, hv cav, etc.). I have a sneaking suspicion that they are more trouble than they are worth.... E.g. hv inf vs. jotun axeman: 3Xhits, 2Xst, 50% more armor, 30% more morale, 2Xcost in rp, 4Xcost in gold. I think that morale is the killer. If you have 1/4'th the units, then each one dying is that much harder on morale. If morale fails, then all the units run away. I think having 4X as many units will make for a less cowardly army, but I will have to check it.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

Having played Jotun extensively (the first race I tried in Dom 2) I can tell you that each Jot spearman or huskarl is worth at least 3-4x any mere human troop. Do not discount that 3x hits, 2x str, 1.5x armor, 1.3x morale. The way it works is thus:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the giants and humans crash together</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">humans inflict minor damage on giants, which doesn't bother them much (more hits and better armor)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">giants each kill a human in one blow (high strength)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">repeat, until humans rout after 2-3 turns of such exchanges (human morale is dropping due to losses far faster than giant morale, and humans will break sooner due to the lower morale they start with)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you will typically come out of such a battle with no losses to your giants whatsoever.</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jot (and R'lyeh) simply plow through independents very quickly in the early, crucial stages of the game. You just have to be careful to avoid engaging more than 3x the numbers of your own troops, unless you have strong magical support.

[ January 20, 2004, 01:37: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

Jotun has level 3 priests, so they can cast sermon of courage. But what Arryn says is true - protection does not scale like other stats, which means the change in strength is huge.

Running the combat sim:

'JO Hirdman' versus 'Heavy Inf Chain' in 40000 bouts.

~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~

Score: ---------------------- 999
Wins: ----------------------- 99.99%
Losses: --------------------- .02%
Kills per battle: ----------- 1.00
Kills per round: ------------ .45
Deaths per battle: ---------- .01
Life expectancy (rounds): --- INF
Life expectancy (battles): -- 4999.78
Avg. Rounds Elapsed: -------- 2.27
Avg. Rounds to Win: --------- 2.27
Avg. Rounds to Lose: -------- 4.29
Hit Rate: ------------------- 49.96%
Evade Rate: ----------------- 73.37%
Repel Rate: ----------------- 28.40%
Damage done per swing: ------ 7.55
Damage done per hit: -------- 15.10
Damage taken per hit: ------- 2.71
Total damage taken per life: 4938.38

'JO Hirdman' versus '4*Heavy Inf Chain' in 40000 bouts.

~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~

Score: ---------------------- 898
Wins: ----------------------- 89.85%
Losses: --------------------- 10.16%
Kills per battle: ----------- 3.75
Kills per round: ------------ .52
Deaths per battle: ---------- .11
Life expectancy (rounds): --- 71.13
Life expectancy (battles): -- 9.78
Avg. Rounds Elapsed: -------- 7.28
Avg. Rounds to Win: --------- 7.42
Avg. Rounds to Lose: -------- 6.07
Hit Rate: ------------------- 57.55%
Evade Rate: ----------------- 64.84%
Repel Rate: ----------------- 31.29%
Damage done per swing: ------ 8.91
Damage done per hit: -------- 15.48
Damage taken per hit: ------- 2.82
Total damage taken per life: 129.66


So. A hirdman does an average of 15 damage per hit, and takes around 2.5 damage per hit. And 90% of the time he beats 4 of the heaviest independant infantry, assuming nobody routs. It takes 6 HI to usually beat the Hirdman, which is 60 gold, 120 resources, and 6 supply versus 40 gold, 34 resources, and 3 supply.

Morale is a terrible problem with Jotun militia - they always rout when they could actually win. But the jotun elites, backed by Godes, do quite well.

-Cherry

P.S. Note that the Hirdman is bugged - he's supposed to wear Chain, like the other heavy Jotun units.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Morale is the main reason why I build Jotun Huskarls (spear) and Jotun Spearmen, exclusively. The spears, while doing less damage than axes, are useful for repel. I've noticed that my spear-carriers tend to outLast my axemen.

I command the troops with Jarls, until I have expanded enough (20-25 turns) to have excess cash and can then justify buying Godes. Plus the Jarls can command more troops. I have no use for Herses. I prefer sacred commanders, which can also build temples in a pinch.

My mages sit at home and research, research, research (occasionally making research-boosting items as my gem income permits) until I reach a point (about turn 40-50) when I begin to run out of things I think are worth the effort to study. At which point I begin to crank out combat items and/or send the mages out with troops of their own to assist the Jarls/Godes at my borders.

As for the pretender? I use the Son of Niefel. I mainly use him as a mage, but also as a SC as needed.

Please bear in mind that I have zero experience in playing Dom in MP. But the above technique has worked quite well for me in SP. YMMV.

My 2gp worth.


Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excuse me, I tried that link on Sunray's page, and I got this,
http://www.freewebs.com/sunray_dom2/UnitView.map
a really really long page of html (?) or sometihng I dont understand. Is this supposed to be downloadable or do I need to be a computer person to understand what to do with that?
thanks

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try right-clicking on the link from your browser and select the option from the pop-up menu that says "save link target as". Then download the file to someplace appropriate. If you have further questions feel free to PM me.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All "nations" DB are based on Dom2. I'm currently working on a large update, after the new patch. Please wait 24h before downloading and checking all the stuff so you'll get the latest Version.
And yes, please, LMK if you find any mistake !
Cheers

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

Thanks Arryn, and of course Sunray too -- I will try to do what you said but I will wait 24 hours as sunray suggested.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

sunray...is there any chance that they will be all combined into one file, like someone did with the dom1 unit database????

hoping it will happen....

especially with Mercs and Independents stats....

Chris

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

Brief segue,not quite on topic, not quite off.... I am not sure I agree with the analysis you did tween HI and JH. Four points to make on this subject.

First, I have found that 30 HI will surround 10 JH and do extra dge that circumvents def and prot. If surrounded, JH take dge fast--and tend to route. Next point--JH take dge, route, and live to fight another day, but with *perm dge* done. All of them have less morale. A few of them have permanent problems (limp, lost eye, lost st, etc.). Third, the next time you go into battle with them--they route even faster. Final point--although they have taken dge, they still cost 3X that new HI, the one that died in combat, in supplies. And mid to late game supplies matter, especially for Jotunn.

HI, on the other hand, tend to die just as often as get permanently damaged. Which means they may cost more in gold and resources, but less in defeats, routes, and supplies--all of which matter.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

As I said in my earlier post, avoid engaging more than 3x. As for 3x, it's relatively easy to not get surrounded. Careful pre-battle formation, and battle orders helps.

By the way, sure, some of the units will take afflictions. That's natural in combat. I never said that the same group of giants could go through 3x combat after 3x combat indefinately. What I said was that there would be very little chance of losses -- in the one combat. As the units go through consecutive battles, there will be some attrition. But you'll be building replacements (even expensive Jotuns) far faster than you'll be taking losses.

If you'd compare apples to apples, you'd see that a second battle with with now-injured giants is still skewed in favor of the giants ... if you match them up against a fair opponent (such as the wounded or depleted remains of a 3x human force that just routed from another battle).

What you need to do is make sure that the giant force is not outmatched by more than 3x in their current state. Takes a while to get a feel for this. Or cast Gift of Health and the problem becomes moot.


Cheers!

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are some differences between the simulator and the game - primarily wounding and spacing. Neither are simulated yet. So, it may not be as rosy for the Jotuns at the simulator makes it seem... wounding does get to be a big issue. Spacing should not be very important in this instance, though.

Still, I'd be surprised if 1 or 10 fanatacised JH's lost to 4 or 40 fanaticised HI.

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've now posted all nations, including the latest new themes from the patch, only Ermor is missing for now. And yes I'll try to combine all nations into one (huge) xls sheet. I dunno what to do with the pretenders list of each nation. Maybe a separate file. Any suggestion ?
I'm also working on a 'creature' file, but nothing on the indies for the moment (did they changed BTW ? I still use the dom1 list).

TIA

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Question : does your simulator puts 4 HI against one giant at the same time, or one after the other ?

More importantly, the HI is probably backed by crossbows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif How would the giant fare against 2 HI and 2 crossbows at the same time ?

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

honestly, sunray, i don't know about the independents stats, as to whether or not they changed. I like the Pretenders stuff too....hell, i like all of it.

I would like to see EVERYTHING in one huge file, divided up by pages or whatever it is. All of it together makes it easier for me it seems to look at and "study". Only problem, I am not good at doing that kind of stuff....how do you guys go through and find all the stats for each and every unit???

Chris

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Creating a view game isnt hard using the commands for the .map files. If you have any kindof programming language, even a free basic, you can do it. Might even be able to do it in something like Word (isnt that semi-scriptable?)
for x = 1 to 1010
print "#commander "+x
next x

That does OK for me to find 1 unit for something. Special pretender not usually offered, a unit I want to snag the image of for a mod, looking at heroes or summons, compare stats.

Do the lists flag each unit for land or water, troop or commander? Thats where a list would be handy for me. Now that #terrain is part of the maps I would like to make the random generators smarter. Not put drowning units in the water and water-breathers on land.

[ January 21, 2004, 13:09: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Unit Spreadsheet
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1) It's all simultaneous, and everything is considered in striking range of everything else. So the Jotun kills 4 HI easily while all 4 strike him each round.

2) Ranged weapons are not modeled http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But they aren't really better against Jotuns than indy HI.