Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

And hear the lamentation of their women!!

Why am I posting this, you ask? Why do you care? Because Unwise, a possible enemy/ally in our first MP game is already asking for advice on the Arco's in another thread. And he has gotten some good advice. Ominously good. Curse him, and may his elephants always rout! Except for that get drunk and let the other players win, that I like.

I will be Tien Chi (with a couple missing apostrophes) in this game. The other players are Caelum and Pangaea (satyrs and such), and the aforementioned Arcosephale (played by Unwise). I am a newbie (to D2, have MP experience in others), with a penchant for screaming and leaping instead of slow build ups and steamrolling. My god, the Great Crouching Tigger, is an Archmage who dabbles in almost all elements of magic, but concentrates on Astral. My realm, soon to cover the backwater world of "The Sundering", is an orderly realm, where everything is average but the dominion is high.

So, o sages of the Dominons, please give me some pointers on how to use my Han infantry and Mongol hordes to drive my enemies before me!
Besides, cold beer is at stake, and I much rather prefer they buy it than I.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vs Arco, use your superior firepower. Wind Guide and Flaming Arrows are your best friends here. Don't forget to order part of your bowmen to fire at 'large enemy monsters'. And beware Mind Duellists.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Dispossessed Spirits are a good early 'bulk' summon for a front line; they're very cheap (15 for 4 death gems), easy to summon (death-1 mage can do it IIRC), are ethereal (so even hypasists and hoplites will do no damage 75% of hits), can do slight paralyze damage, don't need food (better for bulk). They'll give you time for your missile troops to do more damage.
Arco astrologers, mystics will be a problem due to Astral Duel. I'd want a Banner of the Northern Star ASAP just to better the odds slightly. Some indy mages can also help with this.
Demon of Heavenly Fires is fun and not too pricey, might be theme-restricted to Spring and Autumn (don't recall).
The three national heroes of T'ien C'hi are immortal. Take advantage of this, but be aware of the shifting dominion. One of 'em makes a decent good warrior-mage when armored, with suitable power-up like Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, Fire Shield.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Demon of Heavenly Rivers/Fires are Spring and Autumn only. Basic Tien Chi gets the Celestial Soldiers and Servants.

It's fun send the immortal, disease spreading, Master with the Iron Crutch on suicide missions inside your dominion.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Oh, BTW -- access to death magic (needs at least 2 points; 'course, even 2 pts can summon a Revenant and give him a Skull Staff) + Construction 4 => Skull Mentors for a hefty research bonus. Air, fire provide items with lesser bonuses as well. Good for ramping up if you expect the game to Last that long.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In Ti'en C'hi, i have just entered the new year: Monkey year.
Say to myself,HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Glad Språng Festival / 愉快 弥生 祝い / Glücklich Quelle Fest / Joyeux Émaner Fête / Счастливый Прыгать Празднество ^^

Vs Arco,Spring and Autumn is a easier choice...^^

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Thanks for the responses, guys, good food for thought!
Well, I went basic Tien Chi. I have been doing a single player with Tien Chi, am I am on about turn 22. Have been using infantry almost exclusively, and have what I think is a massive research pool, 102 points. Problem is, they are all researching and no one is out helping the Eunuch's lead.
I have been doing ok with mixed Groups of the 10g/10r shield and spear and the 10/10 glaive in the center, with composite bows on the flanks.
I did a 'circle the wagons' setup vs caelum, where the melee guys were the outer ring, and the inner were the priests and archers.
So, I think I have the early game down, but after that I am at a loss. I have arbitarily decided on Evocation (up to level 5) as the main school, but after eliminating caelum I am getting prepped to go vs Jotunhiem or Ermor. Both have vampires, which I hope my level 3 priests are good vs.
I gather that the mid to late games have more emphasis on summoned troops, and less on the normals.

The master of the iron crutch, he is nice, and I got the lady who is partially ethereal, but lost her to a horde of knights. havent used them to thier fullest extent by any means yet, though.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

If you are going to be playing T'ien Ch'i on such a small map as the Sundering you may want to look towards another nation. If not, and you got the HEART and the WILL to play the thematically rich while less than balanced T'ien Ch'i, is to hide and use your Rainbow pretender to try to get enough gems to create a summonable army before you get crushed. The basic Celstial Masters (if you're not playing a theme) are a crutch if you are playing against an astrally strong Arcosephale. If you've already set and determined to be TC, and that particular pretender I hope you are able to build up a summon string before he can march on you.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

"When death is certain, they will live."
Wu-tzu tactical manual

It was a randomized pick algorithim that made me Tien Chi, and having only picked up the game Last week, I decided not to complicate things with a theme. I value your advice, and will heed, but I am going to have a lot of fun regardless of what happens.
All of the players are inexperienced with the game, so it might come down to who makes the least amount of errors (hear that, Unwise?). Arco, Caelum, and Pangaea share Sundering with me, and alliances might happen, so who knows?

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Okay, well let me specific then for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you happen to find a Lizard Province, build a Lab and recruit Lizard Shamans to use as Communion Slaves and Celestial Masters as communion Masters. Good spells to look and use are Acid Rain, Flaming Arrows, Wind Guide, Relief.

If you can get a semi-decent gem income fairly quickly, rely on your Celestial Soldiers, Summer Lions, Fall Bears, Winter Wolves and others to back up your national units.

In general the more archers the better. Since you have 2 types, the normal compositebowman and the imperial. It's generally a better idea to go with the normal and use spells like Wind Guide and Flaming Arrows to cause havok. Unless you have alot of resources and can afford the normal ones. But in that case I'd probably get X-bows instead of normal bowmen.

TC has poor repellers, they have no long weapons in which to repel with or fight against repellers, so it's a better choice to go with the more damaging Falchions than normal spear Imperial Infantry.

Unless you have enough to make a very good blessing, stay away from most the mounted troops. Even Red Guard are not that impressive. If you get into a situation where your opponents are not using fodder, pick up some Imperial Horseman and use the lances to tear up a flank.

Other than that, I can't really offer any help. One of the ways to play TC more effectively is to have a SC take provinces early in order to take the edge off of having naturally weaker troops, but since you can't do that, you are going to have to manage however you can until you get a good strong core beneath you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And by all means, have fun no matter what. That is of course what the game is about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, aside from their glaives and pikes... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Let me change that by saying "Heavily Armored Repellers".

Glaives leave me wanting, even though they do good damage. Mostly because they get massacred by arrowfire and can only repel normal spear length and lower (4 and under). Though I don't have the latest Version of the Combat Sim or I'd do a series of tests.

[ January 22, 2004, 03:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, the combat sim has repeatedly shown Glaives to be terrible. I think it is the worst weapon.

In terms of badness of normal weapons, it was something like:

(worst)
fist
glaive
halberd
maul
machaka spear
axe
hammer
(almost decent)
...

Note that 1-h weapons get a big bonus, and halberd beats glaive simply because it is cheaper. This is somewhat arbitrary... but don't use any of those weapons unless you have to.

..and glaive is length 4, so it cannot repel spears.

[ January 22, 2004, 04:22: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Machaka Spear is rated that low?

WTF? I've had nothing but success with it on Machakan hoplites. Maybe it's the combination of the Hide Shield and the unit that makes it decent.

That is to say I've never actually used the Lord of the Desert Sun to fight anything, either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Isn't it the longer the weapon they can repel weapons below it's length? Or is it differen't. I can't remember exactly the thread that had the repel issues. But if a Glaive is Length 4 and a Spear is Length 3, I'd think it would repel it. Unless Spears are special.

[ January 22, 2004, 04:25: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...spears are length 4. Machaka Hoplites have excellent shields; their spears are terrible. A normal spear or longspear is better (though the longspear is pretty bad too).

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Must have just been one of those things. Ah well.

I'm still trying to figure out how the:

Machaka Spear 5, -1, -1, 5

is worse than the

Spear 3, 0, 0, 4

If you put them both on the same stat units (as opposed to the fantastic hoplites), does the Machaka Spear lose?

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. Try it in the sim! There are some times when the machaka spear is better (against low-morale, heavy-armor, low-attack, low-defense units with length 4 weapons) but that rarely occurs. Possibly machaka spear would be better against armored soulless warriors.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

It's weird but true. Good thing the only thing with the Machaka Spear is on the very hip Machaka Hoplites which are very gravytrain and have naturally higher Morale and Defense.

Either way, my statement still stands. TC sucks at repelling. Their Pikemen have such icky morale (10) and defense (8) and armor, that they die by the truckloads. Stay away from them.

Though in this light you may want to try using the TC Tower Shield and Spear Infantry instead of the Falchion. But I have never in my experience had it make a notable difference.

[ January 22, 2004, 05:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

Where is this fabled "sim"? I haven't seen it on any of the sites linked to Illwinter.

Re: Crush my enemies and drive them before me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...=000677#000000