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Improving the Arena Death Match event
Currently the Arena Death match really isn't worth sending anyone. The prize appears to be the same artifact which is good but not worth risking the life of a good unit.
Here's some ideas for improving the Arena Death Match event: 1) Give 15 gems of a random type to the winner. 2) Let the winner of the match get empowered with a type of magic. Example= AIR_1 goes to AIR_2 3) Winner gets 250 gold . Feel free to add ideas.... |
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I had the Master Assassin merc when one came up. The guy was too far from my borders at the time so I sent him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Ive done the same with merc leaders that had used up all their troops.
Doesnt anyone else always keep cursed items and exploding amulets around just in case of an arena? |
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5. Become a prophet (the commander who fought the duel) [ January 21, 2004, 18:44: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ] |
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1. the eyes of god.
2. a very powerful hero (a long forgotten master of the arena) 3. decreasing unrest (because you are so popular) |
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I've prepped a Bane with a bane blade, totem shield (eye shield would be even more evil, perhaps), fever fetish and lycanthropy talisman just for the Arena at times.
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I sometimes send a shaman with orders to just cast curse a few times in hopes of getting an AI SC.
A couple of times I've even had the shaman win. I've had times that I sent a guy with an eye of aiming, but even though he was slain by a commander, the other commander didn't get the eye (empty misc. slots present). |
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The chances of winning are very slim unless you're going to risk an important SC or prophet. The AI opponents are sending their pretenders, prophets and strong necromancers... you'd be lucky to get a proper burial. Secondly the prize isn't that great... which is the reason for this topic. The prize needs to be improved so players will have a desire to try and win. |
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You get a decent magic item, permanent quickness enchantment is not to be ignored, and 100xp for the unit PLUS a chance to attack the AI pretenders with the commander of your choice. I always send someone to the arena with some simple magic equipment. So far I won a lot more matches than I lost and even taken out AI pretenders on a regular basis. If I use a vampire queen pretender I send her right in since she'll flatten anything except other undead.
I never send magic Users though. Just beefy fighters with good magic protection and armor. That said I would very much like it if one would get a choice of rewards since the trident is not always the most interesting prize. Especially if your champion doesn't have any hands... [ January 21, 2004, 20:29: Message edited by: Wauthan ] |
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I like heroic abilities. |
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AI opponents shouldn't be sending their pretenders into the arena... hopefully one of the patches will fix this. Quote:
also... even if a player is able to win 75% of the time... it's still not worth risking the life of a commander and his magic items. The prize is only one magic item and some experience. [ January 21, 2004, 21:03: Message edited by: NTJedi ] |
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I like heroic abilities. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not worth risking the LIFE of a good unit. |
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It is more than worth it in some circumstances, while not being worth it at all in others. Depends on what you consider an acceptable risk of loss for a unit.
The Death Match is like a pick and choose Assassination attempt. If you win you even get a prize. Whether or not people think it's 'worth it' doesn't really matter, especially since there are so many different playstyles and perspectives about what is worth losing or their chance to win. The best bet is to take it for what it is; and not for what you want it to be. Then gauge the results. One thing I would like is the trident to make a unit Sacred if not otherwise. The Champion of the God in the Death Tournament would be sacred to a nation that won. He'd be a hero and revered across the land. Of course, Pretenders couldn't use that particular effect. Another good idea would be to change his "Title" to "the Champion" or "the Terminator!" or something similiar. Like how a prophet is changed. [ January 21, 2004, 21:26: Message edited by: Zen ] |
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I like Zen's perspective. And that's pretty much what I do. I will 75% chance send someone. Because quickness is very valuable, even for a mage.
The arena will sometimes even tell you the magic picks of your opposing pretenders. Not a bad thing at all. I'm starting to wonder what folks do in MP. |
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I'm starting to wonder how others play MP as well. Must be a hell of a close battle if you can't afford sending a mere warrior commander (no more than say 80 gp?) to the arena. If he dies then my opponent sent something even worse and lost use of that unit for one turn. If I win I get a better commander.
I don't think it's a big deal. Doesn't really have any impact on the game, save if people send their pretenders to duke it out. Perhaps I've got a bit of a carefree side. I usually don't play to win, just to have fun. Though I seem to win by endurance any way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif This game takes quite a lot of time and people get bored quick when someone seems to get an unbreakable upper hand. In some games we all sent out pretenders with top gear into the arena in a sort of pokemon olympics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Sending someone to the arena... means that unit has to be equipped to win otherwise you're just marching a unit to his death.
No matter how well a unit has been equipped an opponent may have a unit or pretender which is more powerful and wins. (especially during MP) Thus the amount of equipment spent on sending a unit into the arena is usually not worth the value of the prize. (prize= trident and experience) The arena event would be LOTS more tempting and interesting if the prize included gold and/or gems and/or something else. Hopefully the next patch will make the arena event more worthwhile to attend. Quote:
[ January 22, 2004, 19:57: Message edited by: NTJedi ] |
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I agree that there must be a better reward for the risk involved. I almost always send my Pretender, or lately my Prophet, and may skip a match or two until i have good items. I always research construction first in every game no matter what race i'm playing and have only lost once http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . My suggestions are as follows...
1) A Blessed/Sacred Trident 2) A new level for Pretender or Prophet (priestly) 3) A giant shrubbery http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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For a really easy to implement suggestion - how about the champion's trident gets an extra affect of having 1 gladiator melee unit show up per turn.
It makes sense from the point of view of them coming to learn from the greatest fighter in the world. Alternatively have the trident give experience to troops in the province, or troops that are under command of it's owner... |
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I think you should get a pony...
And again, I think there should be a prelim round, where entrants have to beat a gladiator to enter the competition proper. Otherwise nasty people send one-shot booby-trapped assassins... |
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Alright. I'm trying to understand the argument of "Much more reward for the risk"
You get a weapon and can't change it out yes. But winning the Event gets you. Quickness (the best 'ability' out there) and 4 Stars of Experience (if they started with none) and a good percentage of the time a place in the HoF (if they were not in it already) so a HoF ability. That is +4 Att, +4 Def, +4 Prec ... I don't know if I want an event that has a reward so good that if I don't throw my pretender at it, that I have drastically weakened my position. As it is, the winner can pick an already decent supercombatant and put him in the Arena and have him come out even better and potentially much harder to kill. If he had Sacred, or Always Blessed (like a Prophet) even better, but I don't think a big pile of gems or gold would be an answer for it. |
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But the real reason I never send anyone is that to win, you have to beat the AI's favorite SC. And I play at impossible, which means they have had extra design points to build them, and there are 16 of them to beat. Believe me, nothing short of a very well designed SC (or a very, very lucky, tough prophet that gets only fight against banishable pretenders) is going to win against them, and usually I don't have one on hand (I don't use SC pretenders). Even if I did, he'd have to be decked in something as good or better than the trident, and he could make xp (and kills) quite easily with no risk on the battlefields.... Anyway, I don't even have to send him to see most of the AIs SC die : there can be only one winner http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Of course, that's solo play against 16 impossible AI's. I am sure MP play against two human opponents (or easy AIs) is far different. I send the best (unequipped) commander I can spare. Usually the nation equivalent of a Knight, who can sometimes get the drop against a powering up SC and kill him. But I have never come even close to winning. The reward is good, yes. But to have a fair chance of winning I have to risk a lot more. The reward is just nor worth it... |
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I always send someone to the Arena, and I am talking multiplayer here.
The Arena is one of those small details in the game that add to the fun & immersion, it doesn't need any boosting with game-wining rewards. |
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But there is a problem when the human players are not even trying to win, only (sometimes) to curse/horror mark the AI. Either the AI must learn to reevaluate the reward (and stop sending pretenders when the mortality rate is around 80% for them in the Arena), or the reward must be boosted so the one that does survive really gets a leg up. Right now, for me, the Arena is a "Watch 3 AI pretenders die, laughing all the while" event. One problem is that the prize must - not be completely unbalancing when won on turn 3 - have any kind of worth on turn 40, when I'm already forging artifacts at a large discount... I think that : - Pretenders should be Banned from the Arena. Gods, or would-be Gods, have no business slugging it out for the amusement of mortals. And defeat would be far too embarassing for them to risk. - The prize should bear some relation to the level of opposition, and the advancement of the game. For example, a gold prize equal to the gold value of every unit that was defeated in the arena (or part of that value), and/or the winner's choice of three magical items that belonged to the defeated ones, to be sent directly to the lab... I agree that the arena adds dimension. It probably works fine in multiplayer (although in 17 mp game there will be a lot of competition and only one winner, but the same prize). But in SP, it's just a AI trap, and not because the player always win; in fact, he never does... [ January 23, 2004, 10:35: Message edited by: General Tacticus ] |
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In reality the games I play don't Last much longer than 60+ turns. It's a rare game that Lasts beyond this, even in MP.
So the most I usually see this event is 2 or 3 times. At each stage in the game, that the trident is availiable there is always a reason for someone in my army to have that trident and experiance and possible ousting of someone out of the HoF. It must just be my 'non SP' mentality as far as the event. While I enjoy them, I don't want the event to have such a dramatic impact on the game in multiple ways. It's enough for me that whoever wins gets unit enhancements as such. Though it may be that you could upgrade the Trident as the tourny progresses. Have it gain a "On Hit" ability as the game progresses. I wouldn't mind the top end Trident having Life Drain. I'm sure someone would throw good units at the opportunity to have a Quickness, Lifedraining weapon especially late in the game. |
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There is one more reward factor that has not been discussed. If you win, you deny the prize to your opponents. The value of this does depend on how you value the prize in the first place, but if you can stop one of your opponents getting an All Star and ensure you get it instead, it is value added.
Certain races are better suited to this than others. Jotun and Vanheim seem to make a mash out of me. Does anyone know what happens if you use the bodyguard ring or if you have units on guard commander? It would be a bug if it allowed them in, but it might be worth checking. |
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Of course, in MP, the problem is different, since I am not up against rabid AIs recklessly sending their steroid-enhanced pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Quote:
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Yes the trident and experience are nice... but certainly not worth risking the life of a good commander.
Hopefully gems and/or gold and/or one of the other suggestions listed previously will be added to the reward of the arena. Think of the long term events of attending 5 death match arenas. Even if you win 3 times... it means that you had 2 good commanders die! Having a good commander die is not worth the price of that trident... something more needs to be added to the arena prize. |
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I had fun in the arena with living ermor, a 3astral/2 death grand thaumaturg casting raise skeletins, later paralyze and soul slay as well. Won the arena a few times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I have no idea how well the arena works in multiplayer though. |
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Don't think of it as a deathmatch. Think of it as a free assassination attempt, where you can send any unit of your choice to attempt to assassinate a random enemy unit. You don't even need an assassin-capable unit, and your opponent doesn't get the benefit of any bodyguards. Against the AI, I don't see the deathmatch tournament as a place to get an unremovable trident or some experience and fame: I see it as a shot at assassinating some pretenders, prophets, and a few random nobodies.
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I've been wondering....if both units in a deathmatch die, who wins? Does it end in a draw? Or does the next combatant fight the now-deceased "winner", winning by default when his opponent begins dead?
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think one of the earlier people said it best. It depends on each game. I do not play impossible and I rarely play with more than four enemies. For me, it is not as hard to win and the chance that the winner will use it on me is very real. In a huge game at a high level, it is tough to win and is unlikely to bother you afterwards.
The game is played different ways by different people, so each part of it will have a different impact on each person. To judge a part based upon your own style may not give a balanced view of how it is viewed by all players. Your view is still valid, but it may not represent “the truth.” My idea for a change would go the other way from many of the other suggestions. Instead of a huge prize to make it tempting, place a penalty on those who do not enter! “Gee Bilbo, I guess Gandolf isn’t as tough as we thought, he is afraid to take on the bad guys.” “Yes Sam, you are right. Why are we busting our butts to get the Ring to Mt. Doom when the big guy is slacking off? Let’s go back to the Prancing Pony and have a beer!” Maybe a big jump in unrest for those who do not enter with smaller penalties for those who fight and lose. After all, everyone is bummed when your team is knocked out of the first round. |
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Here is a spin-off thought,
How about a random or annual event where you can host an tournament for your own people? Here is how it might work. - you get a notice about the possibility of hosting such a tournament. - the catch is that you need to pay gold & gem. You may also get to choose how big a tournament and what kind of tournament to host, which affects how much gold & gem you need to pay, perhaps even the type of participants allowed. - the participants will mostly be your own leaders, the Pretender can't participate. You can send up to 4 of them (or some other number depending on the size of tournament you decided to pay for) - in addition to your participants, up to 4 other independent leaders (not to be confused with Bogus and other scripted ones) of types that are recruitable anyway on the map will also participate (again, depend on how much resources you pay to "invite" them.) Their skill level will also depends on the type and size of tournament (can't really expect a powerful mage to come to your little "show" in your backyard) - the participants don't fight each other, but against generated "target" (one of the reasons you pay gold & gem) that may or may not retaliate and/or rout. In the case of non-retaliating target, they may have such high HPs (and non-routabl) that failure to destroy them in 40 turns will result in participant routing and thus lose. - Alternate thought, to prevent your units from dying, could make all targets non-routable, non-retaliating constructs, but may force the kind of weapons/attacks allowed (e.g. "Archery" section may allow all leaders to participate, but they are momentarily given a kind of bow and have the "Fire" override command assainged to them) - winning participants are cycled to next "battle" where they face harder targets. do this for a number of times depending on the event you choose to host. - Alternate thought 2, instead of losing and be disqualified, perhaps leaders can be assigned winning points on the # of targets they destroyed in battle round. But this would require a bit mroe extra coding work. So you tally all the points to determine the final winner. - any participants suriving all the rounds are declared winners, and gain extra exps. (different scheme than Alternate thought 2) - regardless of winning or losing, all participants gain extra exp just for participating. - the best part, you may get to keep some or all of the participating independent leaders. The chance may depend on how well your leaders performed (a "wow! I sure can learn something from them" inspiration effect perhaps), the type of events you hosted (how big/impressive it is, which also mostly affect the quantity & quality of independent participants), and some other things. Should an independent participant be willing to join, he/she/it will ask for a price depending on their qualities and if they won or not. If you opt to pay, the paid leaders became yours permanently and appear in your capitol the next turn. Anyway, this is a very rough idea to creates a spin-off event that more players may find interesting/fun/useful (getting a mage not in your national path and not recruitable can be really beneficial). Hope you guys like the idea. -Gateway103 |
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And of course versus 4 opponents you'll have only 2 or 3 match to win, against 17 you'll often have 6 or more... Quote:
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Hey, I have 10 unique artifacts gathering dust in my lab, not to mention a few jade knives if somebody is unhappy, who cares about that stupid trident ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Now that I think of it, I also have (finally) somebody who has a chance of winning. Plus the 16 AIs are now 11, one of which is mising a Pretender. Bring it on ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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[ January 27, 2004, 16:14: Message edited by: Lord_Devi ] |
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In addition to improving the prize, you could attack the problem from another direction as well.
1. Each nation can choose a National Champion the same way they choose a Prophet. The Champions get Standard (+10), Recuperation, and Sacred. All National Champions must fight whenever the Arena event comes up. 2. All fighters entering the Arena auto-berserk (+1) 3. Prize is a Cursed misc. object Heart of a Champion that gives 30 morale and 5 reinvigoration. [ January 28, 2004, 07:46: Message edited by: Catquiet ] |
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Hopefully the developers can give us a clue if the prize will be enhanced for the Arena Death Match event in the next patch.
Right now it's not worth risking the life of a good commander for the prize. |
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Should I take the lack of reply to my idea as a sign that people aren't interested?
-Gateway103 |
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Gateway: I personally think your idea is cool. I like little extras like that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
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Certainly the arena death match event needs something more then that one trident and slice of experience. |
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I know another patch is being developed... and it may be the Last patch so I'm bumping this topic.
Even a simple reward for winning the death match like 200 gold and +2 for each gem type would greatly encourage every human player to send someone. |
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While I agree with Saber Cherry in that you should always send someone, just in case the comps (in all their mechanic glory) all send Eunuchs, friars, those dismounted undead kings, and scouts, I find it unprofitable to have someone prepped in case there's ever an arena match. I once bought a Lord Warden and had him train for years at a site just to never see the arena event again. I've just wasted a turn where I could build a witch and get extra research.
It'd be cool if you learn about the deathmatch 2 turns before it happens. |
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Wait, Saber Cherry's alive? I thought he was killed in some sort of horrifically gruesome accident some months ago. Certainly I haven't seen him anywhere, unless you're referring to the Longdead Saber Cherry in the bottom of this ancient thread.
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he/she/it was actually raised as a Bane Lord. I mean, who could kick that much *** and become Longdead after death?
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