Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

First of all, thanks so much for all of you answering my questions I have been posting here.

I hope this is the Last really newbie one. OK here goes:

Learning which magic schools to invest in and when, and how to set up my Pretender (rainbow, same-as-nation-mages, whatever) has been getting better, especially with the couple of races I have been trying and having some success with (namely: Pangaia, Man, and Ulm). I also think these may be the "easier" races to do ok with (my newbie impression) since the magic is straightforward and fairly limited in scope (two paths). I can deal with that.

I am failing at Machaka. Perhaps someone can help?

What I find really hard to deal with is the magic being so broad but not potent. Pangaia has its main mage having 2 nature and 3 earth, plus 1 random -- simple, and high. But Machaka has most of its mages spread out with ONE point in THREE paths (exception: black sorceror). I find this very tough, because now it seems I have to rely on my Pretender to forge items they cant even MAKE in order to get them the +1 boost in a path so that they can forge the items themselves AND/OR forge items to give them the +1 boost to cast those "power of" spells giving them the +1 path they need to cast other spells.
Otherwise, one point in a path just doesnt get me far. What is the point of having all those great varied paths when you have no power in them?

This of course is NOT a rhetorical question: can anyone help me out with their experience here?

It doesnt have to be Machaka, any multi-but-weak-path race tips would be good, but I sure would like to play them, they seem so.... interesting. I kind of like the tribal motif.

thank you

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Attack all provinces that say they have amazons in them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You forgot the 190 gold Sorceror - 2 nature, 1 ?. There aren't that many nations that can get mages with 2-3 levels in 3 different paths.

Quote:

it seems I have to rely on my Pretender to forge items they cant even MAKE in order to get them the +1 boost in a path so that they can forge the items themselves AND/OR forge items to give them the +1 boost to cast those "power of" spells giving them the +1 path they need to cast other spells.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorcerors can forge Thistle Maces (+1 nature)
Black Sorcs can forge Earth Boots (+1 earth)
All mages can forge Fire Skulls (+1 fire)
Black Sorcs with a Fire Skull can forge Flame Helmets (+1 fire)

That's without even considering random magic picks. Quite a decent list I'd say.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Oh right fire skull -- but that's a "very" powerful item, right? So would you suggest going "construction" all the way for a long time first -- and use the casters for research and searching only? And rely on spiders till then?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont understand.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a Construction 6 item, yes, if that's what you mean. There aren't that many accessible items earlier.

Quote:

So would you suggest going "construction" all the way for a long time first -- and use the casters for research and searching only?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You still get the Earth Boots, Mace and (if you find a +fire Black Sorc) Flame Helmet at Construction 4. Add Skull Staves if you find a +death Sorc or Black Sorc, or the hero Sorceress. You don't find many other nations that can build so many +skill items at that research level.

Re research: Witch doctors are cheap and good researchers, usually I don't have problems with pushing research with Machaka, and actually I think it's one of the best races in that area. The other mages are free to support troops.

Quote:

And rely on spiders till then?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I prefer to rely on hoplites and bowmen. When I recruit spiders, it's more for the fun than for anything else.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

onomastikon...

if your main concern is forging items then have your pretender start with at least 4 earth magic. The spell 'Forge of the Ancients' will allow your commanders to forge just about any item.
Machaka is my favorite race so far too... the biggest weakness I see is their province defense sucks.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

If you're pretender is built for bless effects, go ahead and build some black hunters, if he is not built for bless effects, stay with hoplites (Machaka has the best hoplites in the game) and archers. You are forced, because you have no access to communion to rely on forged items to increase your magic on your mages.

Spells that work well with Machaka:
Magma Eruption (Put Earth Boots on a Black Sorcerer)
Blight
Relief (Sorcerer with Nature Stick)
Summon Earthpower
Reanimate Archers (Black Sorcerers random is in death)

Eagle Eyes/ Combat spell (For Sorcerers)

There are more ideas in Alex's Tome of Knowledge as well.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Magma Eruption is my favourite with Machaka, too. Blindness is another spell you should learn to rely on, too (no better way to stop hordes of rampaging Niefel giants).

As for units I wouldn't rely on Black Hunters too much. They're too costly for what they do. Ok, they're nice with nature 9 but the spiders' mr5 let them down later in the game. Hoplites with some cheap shortbow archers and maybe some spider knights (I actually find these guys quite good for the cost, web spit is rather nice) make up the majority of my armies.

Alex's strategy of using black sorcerers with invulnerability and fire shield as mini-supercombatants seems rather nice, too. Got to try that one out. In any case, alteration should be your field of research in the early game (gets you those nice protection spells, especially mass protection (!), and probably the best fire combat spell - incineration). Getting construction to high levels early is a good idea, too (actually, I'd consider rushing for const 4 right away). Your mages should be mostly researching for the first 10-20 turns anyway so I'd invest in evocation later.

Example research path:
Construction 4 (critical items)
Alteration 6 (Mass protection)
Enchantment 6 (Relief) or Conjuration 6 (Trolls, Lamias) or Evocation 6 (Magma Eruption)

This is of course a general guideline but that's what I'd go for with Machaka. Depends on the situation, of course.

As for pretender. Since Machaka is so versatile magically it's hard to decide on a good design. Some sort of support mage would probably fit the bill quite nicely. A Prince of Death would be a rather cheap option and would compliment your existing magic quite well (your guys got 1 magic pick and can get more through randoms but you really want to have 4 levels for early sitesearching) and would also allow you to have decent scales. I'd probably go magic 3 and do some heavy research with the witch doctors.

Example pretender:

Prince of Death:

Magic: 4 Death

Scales:

Order: +3
Productivity: +3 (you'll want the resources for the hoplites)
Heat: +2 (preferred)
Growth: +0/+1
Luck: +0/+1 (either this or Growth or additionally 2 extra levels of death magic)
Magic: +3 (you got 90gp research 5 guy but since you're going to buy many witch doctors anyway why not boost your research by nearly 50%).

40admin castle (80pts).

0 points left over

[ January 22, 2004, 07:04: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Windreaper's suggestions are all good. Though in my personal experience, picking up a middleweight air pretender is more to my playstyle. It allows you a little more versatility with easy access to flying units and site searching. Of course you can still use your PoD as a Province grabber early on, which is also very nice. Definitely look at heavy order and production scales and magic are all very nice.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree on order and production, but magic 0/+1 is good enough for me, as buying more gives diminishing returns:

scale - RP cost - delta (assuming Witch Doctor)
-3 ...... 45 ......
-2 ...... 30 ...... (-15)
-1 ...... 22.5 .... (-7.5)
+0 ...... 18 ...... (-4.5)
+1 ...... 15 ...... (-3)
+2 ...... 12.85 ... (-2.25)
+3 ...... 11.25 ... (-1.6)
++ ...... 10 ...... (-1.25)

It's even slightly worse when you factor in experience (shift the costs a row down to get the RP cost for a 1-star WD).

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Hey thanks for all of these tips.

Before I read Windreaper's post (and the later ones), I went ahead and tried a new game, with ok success up till now.

Obviously I do not grasp the importance of the scales yet, but perhaps later.

I went with a Ghost King, and made a good searcher (4 death, 4 earth, 4 nature, 4 fire, 2 water), 2 heat scales and 1 magic. I went with the 2 water perhaps for a stupid Idea, will see how it turns out: there is a Very Powerful Item, I think it is called the Water bracelet, which only costs 5 gems and req. 1 water skill, gives +1 water. With one of these on my pretender or two on a Black Sorc with a Skull of Fire (if he has random water), they can forge a Staff of the Elements (+1 all elements), which I can give to a witchdoctor to let him forge the Flame Helmet. Then my casters can stop researching and join a battle, if my nation survives that long.
I am going for high construction and alteration, middle conjuration and evokation.
Also, water works ok with some alteration and early evocation spells I think.

Well, I am sure it will be much different than I plan (so far havent found any water sites!), and I will try a new game perhaps with some of Windreaper's suggestions. But maybe I would try a Greath Mother instead of PoD. Also, I just sort of *like* the spiders. Maybe they are not so great, I just sort of like the big hunters. And they get nice bless effects with my 4 4s.

Well thanks for listening anyway.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

The best bless effect I've found for the Hunter Spiders is Earth 9. This gives them protection 26, and means the never tire.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

One huge thing, which hasn't cropped up yet: Machaka can make use of Fever Fetishes off the box! Best path to fire gemmity goodness:
- Black Sorceror forges Earth boots (skip, if random was Earth)
- Black Sorceror forges Dwarven hammer
- Someone summons an undead commander, since they don't give a rats @$$ about diseases.
- Witch Doctor w/ D-Hammer hammers away Fever Fetishes a-plenty (req. Fire-1, Nature-1).
- Fever Fetish goes to an undead commander. Black Servants work best (stealth).
- Remember to harvest (F7->pool(fire gems))

Cost to start this is quite a bit (in gems) but I find it *very* worthwhile, especially after recruiting indy-alchemist and forging the Alchemists' Stone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dwarven hammer should be used. Really.

- Humer

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Humer: that sort of goes without saying but is a good point anyway. I admit that I turn quite a hefty amount of the fire gems to cash, too but most of the time I just go to town with Flames/Fires from the sky or build some phoenix rods instead (incinerate = best fire combat spell). Those work especially well against all kinds of big monsies, mass protected ulm troops etc. Also, tested a 4-air Virtue design today and would heartily recommend it for Machaka, too. You actually get the same scales as w/ PoD.

As for Hunter Spiders, I'm still not a big fan of them. Just too easy to take out with magic to be worth the investment. Actually, I find that the mages are Machaka's real strength. I mostly build Hoplites (damn these troops are cool) with some shortbows thrown in with 'fire at archers' to take out longbows/crossbows. Later in the game just mass protect your hoplites for prot 23, have plenty of black sorcerers casting magma eruption and use relief to make their fatigue go away.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">SHHHHHHHH. That was my secret! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

I tried machaka Last night and was doing okay with them, but their province defense was killing me. It did not seem to matter if I had a PD of 1 or a PD of 30, they got destroyed by anything. The low defense and zero protection is a killer. How do you guys keep enemies out of your territory with these guys?

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Use the Holy-3 priests to keep the militia fighting with Surmon of Courage, and/or a magician with group protective or other group-enhancing spells, and/or a small other force whose strength will be multiplied by the enemy also having to deal with the cannon fodder. Cannon fodder is effective, but only as an element of "combined arms" - you generally need some other elements to make it worthwhile.

PvK

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Forgot about the thistle mace, its all making sence now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 08, 2004, 02:34: Message edited by: Pillin ]

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

Well Alteration 6 gets you Invulnerability, Incinerate, Drain Life, Elemental Fortitude, and Mass Protection.

Mass Protection on Hoplites gives them an incredible Protection Value making your normal armies almost invulnerable.

There isn't a reason to not go for Mass Protection after you get Flaming Arrows IMO.

Re: Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?
 

For PD I read somewhere else that someone(I can't remember who) suggested to use archers in equal numbers with the PD. It really works well, especially since the PD absorb so much damage (you really need a lvl 3 priest to make the absorb lots of dmg) while the archers(national or indy, either will do) take apart the enemy. I play machaka ALL the time, use massive armies of hopts and archers(bags of wine and giant cauldrons required) with small amounts of Black Hunters to take out rear units.
What I've been doing to help my hopts with the front row fighting (and my supply issues) is using Vine Ogres, right now with my Druid pretender I can summon 5 at a time, for only 1 nature gem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif