Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

Dominions I and II have a serious flaw that allows host-based cheating, such that it is currently impossible to have a cheat-free game, unless a 3rd-party provides hosting (generally unlikely).

The method:

The host copies the game data to a new folder, and force-hosts. He is able to attack every adjacent province to see exactly what the opponents have, or even build a large army and conquer the entire map, seeing everything - capitol locations, pretenders, theme choices, army locations, lab locations, and so forth. He could even patrol vigorously in every province to find stealthy units or stealthy armies. The simplest information to find, of course, would be opponents' next turn orders... negating the possiblity of sneak attacks. Even on the first turn, the host could try attacking each adjacent province to see if a victory was probable.

The solution:

In the game settings screen (Indy strength, site frequency, world richness, etc) a "Force Host" option could be present, and default to "enabled". A cheating host will ALWAYS be able to see one turn ahead, if he so desires. However, if "Force Host" and "Master Password" are disabled, so that the host could never force-host, one future turn is the maximum he could see... which is a huge, but not insurmountable advantage.

Hopefully this will be integrated into 2.07+, so that semi-secure games are possible...

-Cherry

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

Hmmm. Is there really much to be gained by reducing a fabulous advantage to a merely huge advantage?

I think players will always be forced to decide whether or not they trust their host, and whether or not they want to play in games run by a potentially untrustworthy host.

It is, after all, just a game. What's the point of winning if you secretly exploited your role as host to do it? None that I can see.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

I don't really think this is a problem. The host will always be able to cheat like this in some way, and one of the primary problems of military intelligence is trying to use information without making it known that you know: Often, even if you know about a surprise attack, you have to let it happen as one anyway, or else they'll know you know.

From a practical standpoint, your proposed solution would fail to address the matter anyway: An unscrupulous host can simply start a copy of the game on timed-host, and let it host/set the system clock to induce it to host, thereby seeing future turns anyway.

The real problem is deeper than that: If you have a host which cheats, you're playing with a jerk, as your host. Let's say he can no longer cheat, so his lack of skill is something that he can no longer hide: He'll get wiped out early, then throw a tantrum and kill your game. So if you're playing with a good and reliable, or third party host, you needn't worry about cheating. If you're playing with a git, your problem is there: Either you'll have to give him preferential treatment that's just as good as letting him cheat, so he doesn't get wiped out of the game and kill your game in the process, or you'll just have to let him cheat.

Either way, this is far from the most pressing issue facing Dominions II. If you're playing with smacktards as your host, you're not going to be in for a positive gaming experience, either way.

[ January 25, 2004, 02:31: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When I posted I thought I had a solution - it was not until 1/2-way thru that I realized it was only a partial solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Oh well...

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

Don't worry Cherry! I'll only cheat if I'm playing with you!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

Oh, wait, I figured it out. OK:

"Force Host Disabled"

and

"Master Password Disabled"

will allow perfectly cheatproof network play. Nothing, to my knowledge, can prevent host cheating in pbem. But still, allowing for the possibility of cheatproof play is... in my opinion... more than just a good idea. Obviously, it's best to play with a host who is trustworthy, but in the shady Vegas $50k Dominions II blitz games I play... one can never be too careful, ya know...

-Cherry

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Considering the "Master Password" option is one that was added at the players' request, so that dropping players could at least be turned to AI... I think you're mainly trying to make the devs go nuts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, this is a legitimate concern http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Really! If two people want to play competitively, and one of them is a known cheater... well, that's currently impossible without a 3rd-party host!

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, this is a legitimate concern http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Really! If two people want to play competitively, and one of them is a known cheater... well, that's currently impossible without a 3rd-party host! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not that it is any of my concern with whom you want to play, but why would you play with a known cheater. I would avoid them like the plague.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, this is a legitimate concern http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Really! If two people want to play competitively, and one of them is a known cheater... well, that's currently impossible without a 3rd-party host! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only if both are known cheater. And it should only be a concern to known cheaters. If you absolutely must play with a cheater, and aren't one, you can host.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

There are ways to significantly avert cheating, such that cheating would require a hacked copy of dominions with security turned off. They are a quite a bit more cumbersome however, as they require action from several people to host. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

For a hosted game, it would be enough for hosting to require that several people connect and provide their password over a secure chanel (eg SSH). One would also need to ensure all players have the same .map, to avoid unscruplous editing.

For PBEM this would be more difficult. A host request could send out encyrpted and time stamped requests to several players, and only host after receiving their response.

IMHO this is a significant problem, not so much due to rampant cheating, but to remove the commonplace suspicion of cheating -- especially should the host have even a slightly lucky start. Admitedly it's probably easier to just play with people you trust, or trade hosting so players aren't in games they host.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

Well i just started hosting but from my experience you gotta have master password in case you need to turn someone to AI. If they could allow the server client to change AI status (plus it would be nice to be able to switch back from AI if someone returns)

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

Well i just started hosting but from my experience you gotta have master password in case you need to turn someone to AI. If they could allow the server client to change AI status (plus it would be nice to be able to switch back from AI if someone returns)

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not that it is any of my concern with whom you want to play, but why would you play with a known cheater. I would avoid them like the plague. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Sabre Cherry is being sarcastic -- note the http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

It is a real problem however. In all of the games I've played, I didn't know my opponents beforehand. In such cases accusations of cheating arise easily -- simply because cheating is easy, and regardless of whether the accusation is true.

For me the solution is easy -- I just don't host. But _somebody_ has to host, and who really wants to open themselves up to such a potential headache?

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

Anyone want to develop dominions.pbw.cc? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

See seiv.pbw.cc to see what I mean.

PvK

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lots of conversation on that. Do a search (upper right of this screen) on threads with the word server in the subject. Both I (for a linux web) and Shrapnel (for windows) have offered to host one.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but this doesn´t cover the really serious case -what if no one is a cheater, but if all my friends are paranoid, and so am I, who should now host? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gotcha there: All you have to do: Start a copy of the game: Turn it into a PBEM game as the copy, then force the hosting with the command line or the timer.

The fact of the matter is that you can either get a third party to host for you, and if you're REALLY paranoid, then you have to worry about that third party being in collusion with one or more cheaters, or you can stop playing with shady people.

As a general rule of thumb we use in games that my group plays, including, but not limited to, Dominions II, the person selected to be the host is the player considered to be the best anyway, because if the host gets killed off fast, the quality of your hosting may quickly decline.

The point is that if you're dealing with cheaters, you're just going to have to accept that there's no real solution to this: The harder you make it to cheat, the more lucrative cheating will be.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

If we can get a web-server working that might help. The image I have is a signup page which creates the entire game along with ways to drop off and pick up turn files.

Of course the server host still has access. But if the server is starting a new game every day then it would have to be a pretty addicted Dominions player. WHAT AM I SAYING? We are all addicted Dominions players. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, you can't force host with the copy, either, since the game was created with "Force Host Disabled".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So I can beat him=)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... as Jasper said, "accusations of cheating arise easily -- simply because cheating is easy, and regardless of whether the accusation is true.

For me the solution is easy -- I just don't host. But _somebody_ has to host, and who really wants to open themselves up to such a potential headache? "

and a bit of Coffeedragon's "Yes, but this doesn´t cover the really serious case -what if no one is a cheater, but if all my friends are paranoid, and so am I, who should now host?"

Cheaters, after all, are paranoid - you can't say "Let me host, as I am more trustworthy than you."

Maybe it's more of a logic puzzle than anything, like the question of how to get the cannibals and the missionary across the river with only one 3-person boat. And you could say, "Don't go to the Amazon rainforest in the first place", and while that's a good answer, it is not very helpful to missionaries.

Having a way for a host to be beyond suspicion is, IMO, necessary.

-Cherry

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahhh I wondered what that was. (probably in the docs somwhere but never got around to looking for it). Oh but now I have to bug them to see if its included as a command-line switch.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

to "Force host" means to host without all players submitting turn files?

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">--masterpass password

It's in command_line_switches.txt in the doc folder. I noticed it when I saw that the 2.06 patch modified that *.txt file.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure you can. Just set it to host on a schedule, so that it will host at time X, where X is 2 seconds from now.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's more like the two doors guarded by two guards: One door leads to a great treasure, the other leads to certain doom. The two guards are politicians. One tells half-truths, the other dodges questions. What do you ask them?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So find a third-party host. If you can think of a method to secure a host locally, I can think of a suspicion.

[ January 26, 2004, 04:22: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure you can. Just set it to host on a schedule, so that it will host at time X, where X is 2 seconds from now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahhh... I see. Essentially, the game would have to be locked as "Quickhost Only" (when all turns are in) or "Autohost Only" (at a specified time) when the game is created. Hmmm... for Autohost Only, the only cheating mechanism would be to play with the computer clock, which is a lot of work and can cause problems, unless you dedicate a computer for Dominions cheating and avoiding time-limited software demos. But "Quickhost Only" should work flawlessly... for net games.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now you're opening the opposite problem. Your game is now potentially COMPLETELY SOL if somebody goes AWOL: No master password, due to fear of host cheating, means this player cannot be AI'd. No force host means you can't simply skip him: If you lose one player, your game is FUBAR.

Now you've expanded the potential to ruin the game from the host deliberately attempting to cheat, to anyone, deliberate or not. This is almost, but not entirely, like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, aren't you getting a little overboard here?

Sure, it would be nice. But it's not "necessary" until the Grand Dominions Pro Tour opening, which isn't scheduled until a few months from now.

Seriously - securing PBEM games without severely crippling the option to deal with dropping players, seems a bit hard, and would require the Illwinter crew to probably search deeper in cryptology books than they wish to. There are techniques for "secret sharing", where a secret information (say, a master password) is shared among several participants, and at least X of them (any X) are required to cooperate to obtain such information.

With such a setup, a master password would be generated at game creation, and "shared" among players so that, say, all but 2 would be required to recreate it. The game would, of course, disable forced hosting. Then, when one or two players drop (if 3 drop at the same time, you have to give up), all players are contacted so that they let the dropping players be turned to AI (this could be included in the .2h files, and should be, IMHO).

Still, more trouble than it is worth, IMHO. I'd say this is less important than, say, the inconsistent battle replays.

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

If you are worried about a game being seen to be fair I think the most practical solution suggested is shared hosting. Offer to host a game as long as one of the players in it hosts a pair game run along similar lines (ie line you want to play). In this context the sort of person who will generally take up the host position is some-one who has a responsible inclination.

Does it matter? I wish I could say it doesn't but after years of PBEM and having hosted many games sadly it has - though not often in my experiance. The Last open to the public game I hosted was a highly themetic Stars games where I had put significant time into prep work and got a third party player to do the setup. The game had rrstrictions on diplomacy both pre game and for the first 10 or so turns. An overly competitive player pushed the boundries, then broke them and was dobbed in by other players. He bawled like a stuck pig when caught out and he had a friend playing to back him up . . . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If I had not been playing as well as hosting I think I would have been able to deal with it easier/better. As it was it was very unpleasant. Alot of time, work, and creativity was wasted in the end. I wish I had tried the shared hosting idea.

Hosting can be alot of work - and quite a bit of stress when players are not getting in turns repeatidly or getting overly competitive. Remember this and be nice to your host. Thanking them at the end of the game is a minimum. Accusing them of cheating because you "feel certain" they must have is out - if you are not prepared to trust them don't play with them.

Cheers

Keir

[ January 26, 2004, 08:42: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, security is never perfect. However, finding a _host_ who can't figure out how to copy and _host_ a game is worlds harder than find someone either not able|willing to decompile C.

Honestly, this isn't that hard! The real problem is getting it to work without making hosting a pain in the ***... That, and I'm not sure the demand really warrants it, considering there is only one developer for Dominions.

After some reflection, I see a better way than what I described earlier, based upon notifying players of hosting rather than asking for permision to host. You could have a central server for arranging games and verifying hosting, while still leaving game processing to players' machines. Plus, there's alot of synergy with generating turn info/history XML for sharing or making web pages, collecting game mechanic and AI statistics, bug reporting, etc. Damn, this would really kick ***!

But I digress, and this is probably not the forum for such discussion...

Re: Urgent. Host Cheating: Problem and Solution.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay, maybe I'm somewhat biased on this point, since I have no difficulty finding someone who's able and willing to decompile C, namely, me.