Re: Dominion Spread
 

I've put together a short primer on dominion and its spread and effects. All the mechanisms you ask about are there:

http://www.maladjustite.com/dominion.pdf

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow ceremony, that was great. Really well written and clear. I needed that!

Thanks!

P.S. I'm obsessed with Miasma and had been trying to figure this stuff out with testing: not easy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 14:28: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Re: Dominion Spread
 

Just a quick note to say THANK YOU, Ceremony. This should be part of Illwinter's official docs/downloads. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe the walkthru is there:
http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/docs.html

Not in pdf format though... I guess we should add that as well.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

Actually, what I posted there is the chapter on dominion, Johan. Just to clarify for everyone, this is just one chapter of a strategy guide I'm hoping to complete at some point, which is why the dominion section is Roman numeral III (since I plan to have an intro chapter and a chapter on movement/building etc.) Right now I'm working on a comprehensive chapter on the magic system. I didn't really mean for the dominion chapter to stand alone, but since Saxon asked such a specific set of questions that I had compiled all the answers to, I felt dumb not posting it just because it "isn't finished." Also, I can get some feedback on whether or not people are interested in having the Dom2 game mechanics broken down in this specific manner.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

Awesome job ceremony!

User generated docs really ARE better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Rabe the Grateful

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see. I should start reading the Posts before I post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think they are very much interested.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

I'm really interesting ... thk ceremony! You are making a great job! If the other caps are like that is the kind of uide I always dream about ...

Re: Dominion Spread
 

@ ceremony:

I found the first paragraph particularly interesting in regard to:

".... the game designers did not pursue the possiblity that this [spreading of dominion] could be done through polite discussion.... Instead it can be done militarily ... or through a more abstract mechanism...."

Actually, building temples and preaching are pretty much, indeed, going from door to door and represents the "abstract mechanism" that need not be violent.

This interests me since I often like to explore non-military Versions of wargames. For example, the economic based scenarios in the Stronghold game. Or, more generally, a "war of ideas".

I was just thinking it would be fun to set the victory conditions to "Dominion" and disallow direct combat except for rituals that don't involve melee.

So, while it is true that the game has a huge military component, the flexibility of the settings allow a non-violent Version to be played based only on preaching and sly usage of the gods power through his/her/its followers.

Chalk another point up for Illwinter and for the flexibility they built into D2 so that a game could actually be based on a "conVersion/economics" approach instead of combat, albeit indirectly since the game wouldn't enforce the "no melee" rule.

What would make this fully possible is if, at a certain very high level of dominions (say 9+) the indies would convert and join you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 16:43: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Awesome job. If the section on morale is done, I want it ASAP, because there are a lot of details in there that I'd like to know.

One point you might want to add: in the "i" window for a Province, you will see the name of any special dominion that applies there. It would be nice (devs: hint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ) if you got the name of the nation responsible, too - not a big balance change, IMHO, but it would help sometimes.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The morale section is going to come Last. It will require some work from the devs to hunt through the code and get a definitive answer on how it works, so I guess the deal is that if I can put together a comprehensive guide to the rest of it, they will get an answer for me about morale so that it can be complete!
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good suggestion -- I'll add it.

One thing I really want to do in the guide is get across the fundamental concepts without necessarily burying the reader in detail, BUT having the detail in there for those who want it. For example, a pretender wih low dominion (3, for example) will see his dominion spread much faster initially than one with dominion 6, but once he starts meeting enemy dominions he will have a harder time reducing them, and will see high-dominion pretenders overwhelm his low-dominion provinces, since the chance of random spread to an enemy dominion depends in part on your maximum dominion. However, he can redress this by building a lot of temples. Thus, Man (for instance) can go with slightly lower dominion to start because temples are half the normal cost, and for all purposes, maximum dominion includes # of temples / 5.

None of this requires specific knowledge of the formulae involved. I'm still not sure how I want to end up writing it, but the further I get, the less likely it is to change because the more text would have to be completely re-written.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point. However, the fact remains that unless you have stealthy priests, you're going to have to conquer provinces to be able to preach and build temples, since any provincial defense will likely be able to defend against a solitary priest. Anyway, it was kind of meant as a joke.

Dominion Spread
 

Dominion and how is it spread. I did a search and did not see anything, but, as always, if I missed a good thread, please feel free to point me to it.

Let us say I really want my dominion to spread and I am C’tis. I have a nice choke point with a temple and Ulm has a temple on the other side. I believe the preaching only effects the province I am in.

1. How quickly, if at all, is my dominion going to spread to his province?
2. Does this depend on my dominion strength?
2. The home province effect. How far does it reach?
3. The pretender and prophet effects. Do they reach beyond the province they are in?
4. My dominion strength. How does it really work? (I guess this is my key question)
5. I build more temples. Does the rate of spread go up as your strength goes up, or is it just to maximum total you can have?

My fiendish plan is to take advantage of my control of the oceans to surround him with temples. Then, as I can muster the troops, do hit and run, destroying his temples to reduce his counter to my temples. As you may have guessed, I am having a tough time taking Ulm out in battle, but I seem to have better dominion and have Mimosa, so spreading disease seemed like a nice idea.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

Ceremony,

Thanks a lot for this! I posted Last night before I went home from work and when I checked this morning, I was a bit worried. It had fallen way down the forum list and I thought no one had replied. Then I saw 12 replies and then saw your chapter. I have printed it and will see if I can read it at lunch, things are busy today.

Thanks again!

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Awesome job. If the section on morale is done, I want it ASAP, because there are a lot of details in there that I'd like to know.

One point you might want to add: in the "i" window for a Province, you will see the name of any special dominion that applies there. It would be nice (devs: hint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ) if you got the name of the nation responsible, too - not a big balance change, IMHO, but it would help sometimes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, that is not intentional. It will probably be removed
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point. However, the fact remains that unless you have stealthy priests, you're going to have to conquer provinces to be able to preach and build temples, since any provincial defense will likely be able to defend against a solitary priest. Anyway, it was kind of meant as a joke. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I appreciated your humor! It just got my mind chugging and I always like it when something I read does that.

And, yes, there are ways besides stealthy priests to deal with indies by they are very inefficient e.g. Miasma, using rituals that don't create units but damage things from afar, etc. So, it doesn't work too well. The priests would also have to be set on Retreat to stop them from fighting... It isn't very practical and fighting is, unfortunately, pretty much inevitable as you implied.

edit: actually, it seems you can set indies to zero! Hehehe... maybe it is possible after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 27, 2004, 08:57: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Re: Dominion Spread
 

really good chapter, with some formulae difficult if not impossible to find without feedback from the devs!

* I once read somewhere that victory points provinces help spread the dominions, any infos on this?

* in which order temple spread and priest preaching is done, can be of importance.

* how can it be that a dominions spread can be observed more than one province away from a dominions source? Or is it that a province which is receiving a dominions increase have a chance to redirect this increase to yet another province?

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good document!

One more question: What does 'Restless Worshippers' do exactly? Help Text says that the dominion 'spread quickly into enemy territories'. Is there a greater chance that enemy dominion decrease? ...or is there a greater decrease for each temple check.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Posessing a province with a victory point in will cause that province to spread dominion like a temple."

-from a post by Johan Osterman

Re: Dominion Spread
 

Comprehensive and well-written! Thank you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Posessing a province with a victory point in will cause that province to spread dominion like a temple."

-from a post by Johan Osterman </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, as VP's are intended to be of equal importance to everyone they count as a temple of a god whose dominion strength is 5 (but that matters little - you rarely have many).

[ January 27, 2004, 17:34: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Dominion Spread
 

Do 2 and 3 VP provinces have more effect? Seems like it might be logical for them to spread Dominion a bit more quickly, but that's a minor point.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

No additional effect.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

Kristoffer, I propose than in the next patch, you add the source code as an added bonus. I need to check a thing or two. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Dominion Spread
 

AWESOME guide !

I have still a lot of questions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For some of them, I have (more or less) educated guesses, but I'll post all of the regardless, so that this thread will hopefully contain ALL about dominion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Is there some kind of "domino" effect with temples ? ie : when you get a high dominion in a province with a temple/god/pretender and all surrounding provinces, will dominion spread in provinces 2 squares away ?

Is there a cap on how high or low a dominion can go ? If you have a (base dominion + nb of temples/5 ) > 10, it seems to me that the the additional points/temples (assuming these extra temples are not build on the dominion's frontiers, thus allowing for spread opportunities) are "wasted" ?

Alos, I am not sure how the blood sacrifices, and the Mictlan "penalty" fit in this picture.

When you perform a blood sacrifice (assuming you are not "forced" to do so to increased dominion, eg. abyssia or vanheim), how does it work ? Is it like priestly preaching (only in the province, with a cap ?), or will it "radiate" dominion like a temple or prophet ? How are the different elements (like the jade knife or whatever this magic item is called, or priest's holy level) factored in ?

With Mictlan, which of the following do not spread dominion : pretender, preaching, temples, prophet ? Only blood sacrifices will do anything ?

Also : how do dominion "killers" (like the artifact statue and the arch devils) work ? Automatic decrease, or only a weighted chance to reduce dominion ?

Thanks in advance for all answers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As far as I know, yes - if dominion spreads to a province where the current dominion is already maximum, it will spread to another province.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe dominion is capped at 10.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The whole Mictlan section of dominion is being written - that part of the dominion chapter is still not done, but I put it aside for some moments because I got tired of writing about dominion!

I will add the VP explanation to the section also.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They work like a priest preaching but for reduction only.

[ January 27, 2004, 21:54: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually it's not if you're playing Fires of Faith Marignon. I think it can go to 20 in that case.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure ? I haven't noticed any dominion increase from my God. Of course, it's one of the Mictlan-only ones, and it says in their description that they must have blood to spread Dominion, perhaps a generic pretender still spread dominion ?

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is just awesome; can´t wait for the other chapters!

Reading well-written stuff on a classic game is part of the fun of gaming for me. And your contributions I rate 5 out of 5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Posessing a province with a victory point in will cause that province to spread dominion like a temple."

-from a post by Johan Osterman </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, as VP's are intended to be of equal importance to everyone they count as a temple of a god whose dominion strength is 5 (but that matters little - you rarely have many). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Even for Mictlan? That could be very useful as Mictlan normally pays (in blood) for every candle.

Well, their god gets them SOME dominion. But not much.

Re: Dominion Spread
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hi ... there are some progress in you guide ? Have you wroten some other chapter ?

thank you anyway for that one!
Liga