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Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01
Version 1.01 of my Japanese themed Dominions II mod, the Ashikaga Shogunate, is now complete and ready for download! It replaces the basic nation of Tien'Chi with a feudal shogunate of warriors based on the Ashikaga, or Warring States, era of Japanese history. Version 1.01 of the mod includes 14 completely new units with hand crafted .tga sprites, full (though somewhat rough, in places) unit and nation descriptions and appropriate flags and banners.
Version 2.00, which will be released very quickly after Illwinter makes the improved mod tools availible, will feature national heroes, the ability for ninja to preform assassinations, thematic custom armor and weapons, more realistic leadership values on national commanders (poor Taisho Daimyo, only can lead 25 men!), balance tweaks, unique commander names, and national startic spells & related summon units (Oni). If you have any suggestions on things you'd like to see in v2.00 or balance improvements that would make things more fun, feel free to post them here in this thread. v1.01 of this mod uses unit numbers 2400-2414. It can be downloaded from my website here. Enjoy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif |
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Looks cool! I might wait on Version 2.00, though... the core game is still too compelling for me to give up on!
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First off, I really like the graphics, they fit the units very well. I also like the ideas behind the mod.
I'll just make some quick suggestions as I see the balance issues that might arise here. An initial gem income of 8 puts them above Pythium's 7, and above everyone else's 5. The bowmen should probably only have a composite bow, or long bow, not a great bow, as I can't see a human being able to pull a draw that would be well over 100 pounds. Of course, they have very large resource costs, so you can't have too many of them, and they aren't particularly accurate either. The mundane units look to be priced about right in terms of resources and gold cost. They will be very vulnerable, but not too likely to break with lots of standards thrown in. The Yamabushi monk is clearly superior to the swordsman, as it costs only 2 gold more, only 5 resources vs. 15, has a morale of 15, is sacred to allow it's morale to go up to 18, has two more points of protection, and is immune to both fire and frost. The cost of the unit should probably be increased, as it will likely be better than swordsman in any given situation. You also might want to give them improved defense instead of natural protection, but I'm not sure of any thematic arguments here. The Genin are likely underpriced, as any unit they hit with the bane dagger is guaranteed to die. It should probably be poison instead of decay. You might want to rethink giving them such a large siege bonus, as it would be easy to have dozens in an army, and no walls would stay up more than a turn. The only other unit with such a siege bonus is the Ulmish Siege Engineer, even Ulm's sappers only count double in sieges. The stealth +25 also means that it won't be found by most patrols. The Mahotsukai master is expensive, but looks like he could be useful. The immunity to fire and ice might require the cost to be boosted a bit, but I'm not sure what the standard gold breakpoints are for most mages. The adept is likely priced appropriately. The Senin Master is quite inexpensive considering that it has two nature, compared to the 1 nature of Druid's and Arcoscephalian priestess at the same cost and priest power. The Jonin looks good at about the same price as a Vanheim leader, but should probably only have poison daggers instead of the very deadly bane daggers. Chunin seem to be too inexpensive for the same reasons that Genin are too inexpensive. They have similar stats to the elite units in the game, but don't cost the same. The resource costs probably need to be increased to take into account the bane weapons. |
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I also agree with Graeme's other points for various unit costs, etc. You've done fine work with the mod, Potato. Tweak it a bit as suggested by Graeme and it'll be GREAT. |
Re: Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01
ok....only one question.....are there samurai?????
if there is....then you will be my favorite person in the entire world..... |
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Yes, the game balance portion of the mod is the single area least tested; I have only played through a single game using the most recent v1.01.
Your comments are logical and for the most part I agree with your reasoning, so I have made the following changes and uploaded v1.02, which is availible through the same link. Changelist: 1). Yamabushi Monk's prot is reduced, price raised. 2). Samurai Bowman changed to use composite bow for balance reasons, despite the thematic inaccuracy- Daikyu were often described as "great war bows" and were very large. This will be changed again when equipment modding becomes possible. 3). Genin and Chunin now fight with poison daggers. The siege engineer skill is not possible to mod in yet, but the flavor text has been changed. 4). Jonin's resource cost has increased but his stats and attack remain unchanged. His expense is great, and compared to similarly priced Vans he lacks protection, priestly power, weapon length, and is extremely vulnerable to projectiles. Cheap ranged units like archers or slingers decimate Groups of Genin and Jonin with suprising ease. 5). Chunin's "fist" attack removed and his cost has been greatly increased. 6). Inital gem income reduced. 7). Senin Master's magic is reduced, and his cost is increased. Ashikaga Shogunate v1.02 [ January 27, 2004, 02:36: Message edited by: Potatoman ] |
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when i install this mod...do i just install it to the "mod" folder? my next game will be with this nation i think....
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FYI, if you want to see a good example of the Daikyu in action, watch The Last Samurai (Tom Cruise). While obviously not set in the Shogunate period, the employment of the bow by both mounted and dismounted samurai is pretty well done in the movie. |
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I think you'll be surprised at the diversity. |
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The bane dagger bug has been fixed. It was hiding below #forestsurvival and escaped notice. Now fixed.
Once modding fire and cold resistance values below 100% becomes posible nobody will have 100% immunity. Also keep in mind that the quarterstaff, while great for attack & defense modifiers, does only 3 damage- half of even a standard broad sword. Yamabushi Monk looks great on paper, but he won't even be able to injure armored elite troops. |
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The Great Bow was intended for trolls and exceptional heroes (Fang, one of the troll heroes, used it before he got a lightning bow), but there is currently no one that uses it in the game.
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the graphisms of your mod are excellent. I will wait for the next patch though.
congratulations, very nice work. |
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Awesome work! Really enjoyed reading those unit descriptions. Nice graphics also.
Thanks! |
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Japanese Bows are over 7 feet in length. Historically, they are the largest in the world. They are laminated composite recurves, made of bamboo wood and natural resins. They are labelled according to how many people it took to string them: 7 man bow, 4 man bow.... The tales of the warring states give the impression of their power being akin to siege engines, with great archers destroying ships by puncturing their hulls. The bow is peculiarly suited to mounted combat as well, since it is asymmetric, with 2/3'rds of the bow above the grip, and only 1/3'rd below, it is very manouverable from the saddle. They have dozens of war arrows, each producing a different effect. One howls thru the air producing terror in the enemy, another whistles as it destroys evil spirits, another has an indented curve that allows it to catch and cut ropes/strings, fire arrows were common. Just as with an English longbowman, it takes years and years to train a Japanese bowman.
I suggest that these bowmen be powerful, but expensive. Japanese footsoldiers were essentially draftees. Inexpensive, poorly equipped, and fodder. Samurai were often well-equipped (they routinely looted the dead), well-trained, and deadly. I suggest that the commander samurai be very powerful att/def/armor/weapon, but that the regular samurai come in low/med/high with corresponding stats--and the high being much more expensive than the low. I suggest that bowmen only come in one Category--high. The bow was the weapon of the aristocracy. |
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I have decided to hold off on releasing more changes until the next Dominions II patch comes out, but work continues on the mod.
Thanks for all your compliments and criticisms, they are very helpful. Also, a note to Illwinter: a banner is included in the setup, but it has an odd name. The file is samurai.tga and it extracts to the /ashikaga directory by default. |
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It would be good if they replaced someone besides Tien'Chi, so you wouldn't lose an Asian nation when playing Japan. Though, with present modding tool limits, this may make the most sense for now.
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Re: Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01
Hello.
I'm creating Japanese mod, too, and unit's name of a part in your mod is the same by chance. (e.g. Ashigaru Spearman, Samurai Commander, Yamabushi Monk.. ) May I keep creating mod by using these names ? |
Re: Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01
All the names and titles of the units are historical in origin, and as such are not owned by anybody. So yes, do whatever you want with your mod.
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Thanks.
I was surprised, because class of units chosen from the history was a like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (But, I didn't think of using Falchion for the substitution of Katana. Good Idea. ) I will make Japanese mod which is close to the Fantasy. Cheers, |
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I'm playing Ashikaga on the Orania map with 14 difficult AIs (indies at 5). So far so good. I just captured the Marignon mausoleum (on turn 12). Marignon's home was only 3 provinces away, so they were pretty well doomed. Ulm is 5 away, so they're next. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
It's a great deal of fun playing with these historical type units, but compared to my Favorites of Jotun or R'lyeh, it's definitely slower going. Here are a few early observations: </font>
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In more recent Versions I have been fiddling with the mod balance again. The starting army lacks a scout because, for some reason, the command to add #startscout "Scout" appears to not work. Putting in the unit # doesn't work either. So, if anyone knows how to get this to work, spill the beans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
After having a group of 23+ Samurai wiped out to the Last man by 11 Pangea Revelers (cheap berserking satyrs) I also have decided that they were underpowered. At the moment I'm experimenting with raising their attack up to 13 and seeing how that works. So far the beef seems to be doing about what I want: heavy casualties on both sides when serious battles start. Bowman precision was also increased to 12, as a 15 resource archer with 10 precison would be pretty bad. The movement discrepancies are a good catch. I'll probably change that. About Unwise flags, I don't know. It would be awesome if he did want to make a flag for Ashikaga but I'm wouldn't expect him to, especially when the mod is essentially unfinished. [ January 29, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Potatoman ] |
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I'm finding that the genin are by far more cost-effective than samurai in terms of what they accomplish in combat (due to poison, fast move, etc.) and their higher survival rate. Nevermind their ability to sneak around, or reduce a castle quickly. Simply awesome. Thus I've switched to churning genin out rather than samurai. Also, since it's easier to increase gold than resources, you can build more genin than samurai, which is a bonus feature. I've built no archers, so I can't comment on them. |
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I didn't play this mod for too long, but I'd say samurai archers need more cost over normal samurai. Paying 5 gold for composite bows on all your core army troops makes for some deadly arrow volleys. Just keep in mind that a samurai archer is almost as good as a samurai + an archer, maybe even better. I seemed to have pretty good sucess with my samurai archers.
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The Samurai Archers only cost 3 more gold a pop than normal samurai, but they have reduced attack and defense (especially after standard Samurai were boosted.) I think that the change leaves archers in a support role and still allows the player to amass enough to do some good as pure archers.
I think something that many people may be missing is that Samurai are very vulnerable troops. Without shields and a prot. value significantly less than even standard heavy infantry it is very easy for them to meet death on the battlefield. If you look at other races standard HI, like the Arco Hypaspist, you will see the difference is essentially 4 less protection and no shield to defend against range- this is a very big disadvantage. In order to make them worthy, they must either a) cost less than their adversaries or b) make up for it by having high att, def, or str values. I'm wary about attribute pumping because there really isn't any way to justify a nonmagical recruit fighter having superhuman strength or skill- 13 is as high as is plausible for foot soldier samurai. Thus, I feel the Samurai's low cost and high stats (13 av, 12 dv, 11 str, 16 gold) are more a counterbalance to his vulnerability on the battlefield (Ashikaga has access to air magic for SoS, but it is expensive) than an unbalancing factor. In short, this is my excuse for not making him much more expensive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Genin, on the other hand, are comparable to mini-Vans. They now cost 40 gold. |
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I've noticed that the names given to commanders with this mod don't seem to correspond to chinese, much less japanese, names. Not having played T'ien Ch'i (of any flavor) I don't know if this naming convention is normal for the underlying nation. I had been under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that each nation in Dom had its own names list that the game uses to randomly select from. At least the names I've seen for the many games I've played as Jotunheim and R'lyeh do not have those two nations use any of the same names (so naturally I assume that other nations likewise have their own lists).
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Admittedly bows don't do much against better armored troops, but driving away the fodder and even lightly armored but dangerous units such as elephants, etc. is very useful. The archers do have somewhat lower stats, but IMO, not enough to counteract the power of their bows. The recent boosting of other samurai stats might make them more competative, but since I think you boosted the prec of the archers to 12 as well, they still seem very close in overall usefulness.
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Hrm. I only have one comment so far until the Mod tools are released.
The Genin and other Ninjas are slightly hard to look at. I don't know if it's just me or not; but the neon green and dark purplish just seem 'off'. On the other hand, I like the the Mahotsukai coloring and sprite very much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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The samurai should have some trait that makes them unique and offsets other nation's HI. One thing that is notable about samurai is the bushido code. Routing would be highly dishonorable, so it should be fairly rare. Hence I suggest the following ... (based upon stats for the samurai in v1.02) </font>
With regards to Genin, setting their cost at 40 gold is fine, but they cost too many resources at 9, given the equipment they have. A more reasonable value is 4 or 5. [ January 29, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: Arryn ] |
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Just change the "#selectnation 15" line to whatever other nation number you want (see modding guides for the list). Cool, isn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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Latest observation:
When Ashikaga units are paralyzed (by illithid Mind BLasts), instead of the unit graphic becoming "grayed out", the transparent background of the sprite is replaced by black. It's very odd-looking to see these 2-D vertical black squares with samurai images embedded within them littering the battlefield. It ruins the whole illusion of the sprite (a 2-D object in reality) being thought of as a 3-D object. Just thought you might want to know this in case there's anything you can do about it. |
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The bow the Japanese used is called the "Yumi", it was a fairly unique bow in that the hand grip was about 1/3 of the way up the bow itself. This allowed for a large powerful bow to be fired from horse back. For all intents and purposes it is an assymetrical longbow designed for mounted soldier use.
It was also a very tall bow by most standards some over 200cm tall, the draw on the bow for a strong man was around 18 kilo's whatever that is in pounds, but due to its akward shape I imagine that accounts for the reputed difficulty in drawing. Japanese archers also often used frog crotch arrows, basically an arrow head in the shape of a V so they'd look something like this. These were cutting and slashing arrows. ###--------< The purpose of this arrow was to cut the straps of the bamboo armor that was commonly worn, they also used standard AP arrowheads as well. Firing the Yumi was almost an artform. I've heard that a proper Yumi when fired should actually almost spin out of the holders hand so that bow is pointed towards the archer after the arrow is released. I assume this is due to its assymetrical design. The Yumi was every bit as important to the Samurai as the sword was, and it is an arrow that a Samurai broke in half when he swore an oath of allegiance. Perhaps a mounted horse archer with high precision would fit into this theme? |
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Names: Yeah I noticed too. Don't know how to change them though, so nothing I can do at this point.
Sorry the Ninjas don't look as good as some of the other sprites, they were definately the hardest to make. Trying to make a thin man dressed in a tight black suit look good at 32x32 pixels against a light brown background was a much bigger challenge than I anticipated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Some of the early incarnations of the Ninja were quite startlingly ugly. This is one of the reasons they have glamour in combat- so you can't see them very well. The green knife is from back when they all used bane blades (this is also why their resource cost is relatively high). About the paralyzation problem- I don't know what the cause is. Does the same thing happen with the user created units of other mods? |
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Once again I wish to say that you've done a wonderful job with the mod. The sprite graphics for the various samurai and casters are a joy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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PvK |
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Hi
I have made a jpg banner and moved the Ashikaga mod to complete mods. Is the 1.02 the latest Version? Nice work! |
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(begin quoted text) --- From history I would have to say that the average draw has become much less than it used to be. During the war of the Heike (the middle ages) one master archer sunk two boats with one shot of his massive bow. In those days bows were measured by how many men were required to string it, the average being a three man bow, this monster that sunk two boats being a seven man bow! The old Kyujutsu training was much more rigorous than the modern, with several hundred arrows being shot each day. A good day at the dojo now would be forty arrows, with most students quitting at around twenty or thirty. I myself pull a 13.5 kilogram bow, which is very light. My wrists are weak. The most powerful bow I have heard of being used with any regularity in the modern age is a 42 kilogram bow. My master uses several different bows, but his regular practice bow is 18 kg I believe. All students, no matter which instructor or school, will shoot the same design of Japanese bow which is little changed from the twelfth century. Traditionally made of hardwoods laminated front and back with bamboo the Japanese bow is one of the longest in the world, usually over seven feet in length. It is a natural double recurve bow with the arrow nocked one third of the way from the bottom and the bow actually rotating in the hand at release approx. 270 degrees. The unique design of the bow requires that the bow actually be torqued or twisted in full draw to make the arrow fly straight. --- (end quoted text) Provided FYI, for those that are curious about the subject matter. What I find interesting myself is the high pull strength of these old bows, given that they were never designed to punch through plate or tightly-woven chain steel, as were the western bows of the same era. Potatoman may need to significantly revise (upwards) the damage of the archers in his mod, as well as increase their gold cost. I also agree with Osium that the mod should definitely include mounted archers. [ January 29, 2004, 20:32: Message edited by: Arryn ] |
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Thanks for the link! I put it with my other Dominions links, right next to this armor guide.
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I believe the reason why the pull was around 40 pounds, was due to the fact the grip for the bow was located 1/3 of the way up. This means that significant poundage is going to exert a fair ammount of torque on your wrist to draw the bow and fire it accurately.
A good point was made, the arrows the japanese used were designed not for punching through thick metal armors, but for cutting bambo armor/lamenated armor or punching through it which is significantly less difficult to penetrate than something made of metal. This may also be a reason why the draw is seemingly lower than other bows of equal size, note I am going by modern useage of the bow. In fuedal times the bows very likely were strung more tightly but I still do not think in combat where volume of arrows is required you would want a bow strung THAT tightly simply due to the pressures exerted on the wrists because of its assymetrical design. [ January 30, 2004, 00:06: Message edited by: Osium ] |
Re: Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01
I've noticed a significant omission in the .dm file for the mod:
The mounted units lack the #mounted command signifying they are mounted troops. I found this out when I saw that my Daimyo had a foot slot, and mounted commanders aren't supposed to have feet slots. You will also need to adjust the base enc for both units upwards to a value of 5 (currently they are set to a value of 1), as per the mod instructions (section 6.29 of the doc), in order for the units to have the correct enc values. I edited the Version of the mod that I'm playing with to test all the suggestions I've been making, along with those that Potatoman was making himself, and so far they seem to make things considerably more balanced, at least as far as my present engagement with Ulm (currently on turn 23). I'm an impatient gal and I didn't want to wait for the next mod Version. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif My genin are a fair counter to Ulms HI. The samurai pin them in place from the front and the ninjas hit the HI from the rear, while other ninjas go after enemy archers. Ulm counters my ninjas by shredding them with missile fire as they move. Ninjas are remarkably vulnerable to archery, which really shouldn't be surprising. Given that the ninjas now cost almost 3x a samurai (in gold), you definitely feel the loss of each one. Which should discourage folks from just making ninjas when they should instead build "combined arms" forces. |
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Nice catch on the mounted units. I don't know how I missed it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Thanks for all the resources on Kyudo, very interesting stuff. Version 2.00 will see a more historically accurate representation of the Samurai Archer, with higher cost and attributes to reflect his elite background. Thanks for putting the mod up on Illwinter, Kristoffer. 1.02 is the currently the latest Version availible to download, though Version 2.0 is almost ready for when the next level of modding tools are released. |
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Here's another one for you, also on the mounted units. Both units need the following command added/changed (it's missing for the Daimyo): #weapon "Hoof" 56 Without specifying the number '56', the attack will be with the default unshod hoof (which is nbr 55) doing zero base damage. With 56, the base damage is 10 (see table #3 in the doc). Quite a difference. By the way, in the changes I've made to your mod that I'm playing with, I've replaced the lance of the samurai horseman with a composite bow. Two reasons: (1) AFAIK, the lance (in its western form) was not used in Japan (if you really feel the need, then use a "long spear", which the Japanese did have), and (2) the mod needs a mounted samurai archer. I don't see the need for two separate mounted troops, so I just gave a bow to the existing one. Besides, again AFAIK, all mounted samurai had bows anyway. (Well, most samurai, period, used bows. But that's quibbling.) With regards to the use of the lance or spear by mounted warriors, the traditional employment of cavalry in Japan was to harry the foe from the flanks with archery, and/or with quick dashes culminating in slashing attacks, with the cavalry breaking off to reform and repeat. The terrain in Japan, as well as the lack of a need to punch through heavy steel plate, more or less precluded the use of lancer-style thrusts up the middle to drive wedges into the midst of foes. The lack of the lance is also why the Japanese did not develop the anti-lancer weapon known as the pike. Lack of plate armor is also (in large part) why Japan did not develop firearms. If the weapons you have are good enough to defeat the armor of your opponents, you do not need to spend valuable resources (time, money, intellect) on making better weapons. Well, that's more than enough lecturing for one post. Quote:
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But I think you just specify the number OR the name, not both, so be careful about that. EDIT: Except it looks list the list is wrong; I'll change it. You do in fact want #56. Anyway, I think the problem is that you're double-specifying; just use 56, not 56 and "hoof". [ January 30, 2004, 07:38: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ] |
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