No one does it like the Bull...
 

Finally got a few wins under my belt (vs easy AIs, heh) with Jotunheim and Ulm, so now I want to try every nation to see what I like best.

Well, the first one I have tried so far was Pythium. The Bull seemed like a fairly unique (lol the fertility thing) strong combat pretender, so I chose him.

So far, he is stomping ***. I played around with the Son of Niefel and Titan pretenders as Jotunheim/Ulm, but this guy is way better, at least early. I am sure his relative power declines a lot in the later game as he cant use many items. He is a frigging monster. As long as I have positive dominion he is almost unstoppable. He takes out entire squares of troops per turn, and then some once he goes berserk. He has fairly low defense and protection, but a boatload of HP.

Anyway, what other combat pretenders are similar to, or better than the Great White Bull?

TIA
olaf

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

I have never played the Bull, but 80 points for a new path and only NN to start is rather steep... you may get blown away by magic if the only combatant you really have is your pretender.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Give him "Personal Regeneration" - Nature 2 / Enchantment 2. He'll be even more unstoppable. The only one comparable to the White Bull is (really) his brother the Black Bull of Pangaea. He has Berserk +7 instead of +5, starting with Nature 1, Blood 1 instead of Nature 2, and has no support bonus.

The two bulls are new in Dom 2. They're new even in gameplay as there were no combat monster gods like that in Dom 1. A Wyrm is comparable in terms of survivability but it doesn't trample and thus isn't as destructive. The Great Mother tramples but she's not as powerful as the bulls. The dragons are powerful but they're not as destructive.

It doesn't matter whether they're still powerful in late game. For combat gods like this, you don't invest too much into them. You just send them out to attack to get an early start. It they got killed, you call them back - there is no huge loss. You invest in your scales and economy, using your army and national mages to win.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

I like the Vamp Queen, if you give her at least a point of water and preferably one of earth as well. Then research Alteration 2 (quickness and stoneskin - Alt. 3 for Ironskin) and she can take out virtually any indie in her dominion on her own.

I quite like the dragons too, but you have to be more carefull because they can accumulate afflictions. I was testing a green dragon as a pythium pretender (SP) recently and he lost both eyes in like his second fight.... That's what you get for letting yourself get surrounded by heavy infantry. I find using the breath attack before engaging the enemy really helps (they break and rout sooner). That and casting personal regeneration before the fight.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

The bulls are monsters. A bull with Earth 8, an amulet of resilience and ring of regeneration becomes virtually unstoppable...

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Until he tries to trample Jotuns. The fatigue cost of trample is based on the size difference, and it takes a lot of trampling to kill even a few Jotuns.

It'd be pretty expensive to get either bull to Earth 8, though. You don't really need that much Earth just to cast Invulnerability, so unless you're getting it for your national sacred troops, I'd go with no more than 4 Earth 6 Nature. Plenty for Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, Strength of Gaia, Personal Regeneration (optional but cumulative with SoG's regen and regen items; but you only need one regen to get affliction resistance). Elemental Fortitude depending on what you're facing. All of this is in the first 3-4 levels of Conj and Alt (except Personal Regen, which is Enc).

Nature-9 is viable too, but you can get hurt easier without Invulnerability. You do have Gift of Health later (and Personal Regen to cut down on afflictions in the first place). Given the descriptions I would have expected the Bulls to recuperate without GoH, but oh well, they're pretty good as they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I think they do.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

Ok a couple of more things. I played a bunch of different bulls today, mostly just seeing what types of armies he could take out on his own.

I found that he did very welll versus nearly everything, independent-wise that is.

A couple of things killed him. Solaris, some named badass knight. He had incredible gear and sick stats.

The other thing was a pretty powerful Sorceress, who was leading a crusher and some other stuff.

Then, I entered him in the death match (never a good idea, I know) just to see how he would fare. He lost in the first round to the Vampire Queen. She cast Decay and then 'kited' the bull for lack of a better term. The bull would hit her a lot, but she kept dancing around and I guess was getting HPs back through lifedrain.

The other problem I ran into, was after most fights he would get an affliction. This is not a big problem most of the time, as he heals them on his own. Except the damn never healing wound.

Anyway, it sure is a fun pretender to play around with.

olaf

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, 8 Earth is just for the +8 protection (7+5+8=20 once he berserks). That lets you start taking indies from turn 1, on an indy strength of 7. Though it's much safer to wait for regeneration.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

Arcoscephale's Shedu is also similar.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

I once was playing Ulm, and Pythium had a white bull. Poor thing kept diing against my armies. Each time, it was the fatigue that did it, I think he had acquired a chest wound somewhere. Anyway, better give him a reinvigoration item, or don't ever attack large armies, because once he is tired he becomes a sitting hamburger...

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

It might seem really odd but the most successful combat pretender I made, so far, was a plain Ancient Kraken.

The thing just would not die. Since it didn't have any picks in magic I recklessly send it in to duke it out with independants and enemies alike. Indep set to 9 nonetheless. With whatever few units it could recruit in the province previous it expanded the empire faster than I could defend it. After a while I gave it an amulet of airbreathing and sent it onto dry land where it fared even better due to the lack of angry "teleporting" tritons.

Eventually it did die, going up against a cadre of heavy cavalery, but with so many priests around it jumped right back two turns later. With such a cheap pretender I could afford very good scales.

Never eat squid again! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah. I missed that. It shows I don't play Arco often http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

It's probably even more powerful with the ethereal, luck and invulnerability combo. Though you'd want a "Ring of Regeneration" to go with it and some higher Astral to prevent a quick kill from "Magic Duel". All these together might make him a bit too pricy to risk in frontline.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The immortal pretenders can go into battle... die and not take any losses to their magic as long as their candle is in the province.
The bull is a strong monster but can only use miscelaneous items.
Also by mid and late game it's almost always better to keep your pretender hidden from the enemy/battles to stay away from the mages/items that will horror mark, curse, blind, cast nightmare or some other nasty attack.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

I agree, the Shedu's Astral makes him in practice too expensive, especially considering he can't use most items and so is only effective early on. Unfortunately his relatively low 9 protection also hambers him early, until you've researched at least Iron Skin. IMHO the Shedu is impotent and expensive.

Luck and Body Ethereal are nice, but those can be cast on you by another mage, or easily attained through items. Astral Shield is quite nice however (especially since Paralyzation is broken!), although I'm not sure whether Astral Weapon works with Trampling.

If the Shedu cost 100 and had Air instead of Astral, it might be ok. It would be much cheaper without the need to invest in high Astral, and stronger by adding access to Mist Form, Mirror Image, and Resist Lightning.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

I'm only a newbie but I have had great success with the Earth Mother (or Great Mother? forget name). Particularly with Pangaia, where I almost always set to Restless Worshippers, which gets me faster nice Dominion in provinces not yet controlled by Me (= she even better in combat there), plus gives me more cannon fodder (Maneads from the Pan). I usually equip her with some reinvig items asap (boots of the messenger, girdle or might). She does quite well. Never tried the Bull, because I dont like his magic setup, but the Mother seems like an even better deal to me. Just my two Eurocents.

Edit: oh and if I remember rightly, the Bull doesnt have much magic, but he also doesnt have many item slots. It is nice to be able to put a shield on the Mother, and some armor and boots too. Or give her a Midget Masher, that is fun.

[ January 30, 2004, 09:49: Message edited by: onomastikon ]

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious - what item gives Ethereal to someone with no body slot? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Luck I agree on, but it isn't as important as etherealness, especially early game.

I don't think you need to invest in high Astral - most god SCs are primarily useful for early expansion, and don't want to take the field against players packing Paralyze, Curse, Horror Mark, Black Bow of Botulf, etc. Magic duel would be one more way of bringing down a Shedu with a "mere" 4 Astral (which is pretty cheap) - but you'd likely lose several mages doing it, unless you're Pythium.

Furthermore any astral god that does take the field will probably be leading a communion (especially for astral nations like Arco - it is definitely worth it to send a few mystics on communion slave to back up your God), which IIRC still counts in magic duels.

I think the Shedu could stand to cost a bit less or have higher base protection, but as he is he can take quite a few provinces by himself with no research, and then with a bit of Alteration he can take just about any independent.

Has anyone ever used Gifts from Heaven (Earth 3/Astral 1/Evo 5)? From the description it sounds like it could be quite nasty against heavy troops (150 damage?!, AOE 1, #effects 3) for a fatigue cost of 50-. A Shedu is probably paying no more than 25 - without communion - for a spell that can kill six Black Knights (let alone what that will do to supercombatants - few beings can survive 150 damage).

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wraith Crown. Death-4, Con-6. Not early game item, though (40 gems)...

- Humer

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO Fighting Pretenders can be quite usefull later in the game, and in fact many pretenders are too vulnerable to use during expansion, but with some research and equipment can be fearsome.

Paralyze: Is broken, and I expect will be fixed.
Curse: You can survive being cursed.
Horror Mark: Is a rare and impotent threat.
Black Bow: Can be deflected, and can no longer target commanders anyway

Sure there's more risk later in the game, but you can also afford to lose your pretender more.

Then again, the Shedu isn't very usefull later in the game, so perhaps you're better off just taking Astral 3 and only using him for early expansion. Personally, I prefer to have my pretender usefull both early and late, and IMHO Arcoscephale really benefits from a high Astral pretender to protect Mystics from factions with stronger or more efficient Astral.

Re: No one does it like the Bull...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've never gotten much millage out of Gifts from Heaven, as it's expensive and horribly inaccurate. Against small units it's overkill, and it's very difficult to get it to hit something big that the huge damage matters.

Perhaps if you boosted the mages precision a bunch it would be usefull, but I haven't seriously pursued that. A 2 earth 1 air Mystic leading a communion could work: equip an Aiming Eye, cast Aim, and have someone else cast Wind Guide; actually, I'm not sure all these bonuses stack... Plus, it's usefullness will depend greatly on whether GfH tends to target large monsters or not.

In the end I've always found the more traditional Astral evocations to be more effective, and have regretted the times I've used GfH.