AI colony ship design
 

Most of us have seen in the later game a problem of the AI with its colony ships: the AI sends colony ships to destinations that are to far away to be reached with the limited supply in the ship. Contrary to all other ships, the resupply minister does not care about colony ships to resupply. So what happens is that the colony ships continue to travel at the minimum speed of one move per turn after they run out of their supply. Therefore it can take years till they reach their destination! I don't know how to change the behaviour of the resupply minister so I changed the design of the colony ships as follows:
Name := Colony (Rock)
Design Type := Colony (Rock)
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Don't Get Hurt
Size Minimum Tonnage := 10
Size Maximum Tonnage := 5000
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Colonize Planet - Rock
Minimum Speed := 2
Desired Speed := 3
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Ability := Colonize Planet - Rock
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 3
Misc Ability 1 Name := Quantum Reactor
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Cargo Storage
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 400
Misc Ability 3 Name := Standard Ship Movement
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 50

In the beginning of the game nothing is actually changed in the design. It still has five engines and one cargo component. When in the later game the AI has researched quantom reactor however this will be used in the colony ships and the number of engines are reduced to three to get the necessary space. Because at this level the AI will also have quantum engines the speed remains still one move above the initial value with ion engines. This design needs more resources to be built with the quantum reactor, but I think it is worth-while for the AI. For human player this design is not necessary.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
Contrary to all other ships, the resupply minister does not care about colony ships to resupply.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice idea on the colony ship, but does the above quote mean you have actually seen a resupply minister direct any ship to a resupply base? I haven't ever seen one work. Knowing my luck, I'm just not doing something right...



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Researching the QR is very expensive, though. You'd probably do better to tell the AI to research Stellar Harnessing and put a solar panel on each colonizer. It can be available much earlier in the game.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

White Hojo indeed in my experience the resupply minister works for all the other ships.
Baron Munchhausen you are right, but the problem if you use some solar panel or supply storage components in the early game you will have a quite low speed of the ship if you reduce the number of engines in order to get the necessary space. The other option to omit the cargo component is also not to good in my opinion.
And I really to think the quantom reactor is worth-while the research, because for attact ships it is a huge advantage if they can continue their offensive without resupply problems.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

I may be wrong here as I never use ministers, but I suspect that the real problem with the RM not working on colony ships is that the AI does not cancel orders once given.

The RM is probably ordering the ship to resupply, but until it completes it's first order it won't check for new orders.

If I am correct, a fix for this would require a code change. Perhaps canceling current orders when supply level reaches a certain threshold, like it does now when entering a system with enemies present.

Personally I think it would make sense for the colony coomponent to have supply capacity as well as cargo capacity. That would help them have a longer range, without sacrificing the extra cargo space. This could be done through the text files as well.

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 06 February 2001).]

Re: AI colony ship design
 

That's a nice idea, I have included it into my MOD files.

Geoschmo: Giving extra resources to the colonizer module is a good idea.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Good idea, geoschmo. I'll join Mephisto in adding it to my custom techs... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif 1000 supply is 20 turns of movement with standard ion engines. This should go a long way towards fixing the AI's stupidity about colony ship navigation. Guess I'll have to consider releasing a mod myself one of these days.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 06 February 2001).]

Re: AI colony ship design
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Researching the QR is very expensive, though. You'd probably do better to tell the AI to research Stellar Harnessing and put a solar panel on each colonizer. It can be available much earlier in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't mod yet (you guys doing it are doing an awesome job!!), but I do agree with Baron M. I never research QR - just put Solar Collector III's on all long range ships. I never have to worry 'bout resupply problems except in the longest and "bloodiest" campaigns. Even in a long campaign, I may only have to wait 1 -2 turns to get my tanks full with my Capital Ships (and of course a supply tanker w/ 10 or so SC III's).

I would bet that even in an Ancient galaxy setup, the AI's colonizers would at least triple their range. Even when they do run out, as soon as they get to a system with a sun, they recharge and get moving again. I would think that would more than make up for reduced cargo capacity.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Suggest this to Aaron.
This would be a good addition to the upcoming patch!

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Agreed. Easier fix than others I have seen or implemented in my own mod. I didn't notice this problem as much in my own mod b/c a long time ago I changed the engine components so that the upgraded engines for each engine type consume 10, 9 and 8 supplies, respectively (instead of 10, 10, and 10 in the game). I cannot take credit for the ideal, I think Talenn, Jubala or one of the others in the early days came up with this.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 06 February 2001).]

Re: AI colony ship design
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
Agreed. Easier fix than others I have seen or implemented in my own mod. I didn't notice this problem as much in my own mod b/c a long time ago I changed the engine components so that the upgraded engines for each engine type consume 10, 9 and 8 supplies, respectively (instead of 10, 10, and 10 in the game). I cannot take credit for the ideal, I think Talenn, Jubala or one of the others in the early days came up with this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! Now that's a pretty good idea! I've always hated that the II and III engines of each type just slightly decreased the cost. It seemed like the only reason you researched it was to get the next engine that adds a movement point. But decreasing the supplies used by each successive Version is pretty brilliant! My compliments to whomever came up with this idea.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Great ideas Tampa and geoschmo, I will definitely use them in my mod too. Also, I agree with geoschmo that colonizers should be canceling their orders (or updating to be more accurate), someone could mail this to MM, maybe they will put it in next patch.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
Agreed. Easier fix than others I have seen or implemented in my own mod. I didn't notice this problem as much in my own mod b/c a long time ago I changed the engine components so that the upgraded engines for each engine type consume 10, 9 and 8 supplies, respectively (instead of 10, 10, and 10 in the game). I cannot take credit for the ideal, I think Talenn, Jubala or one of the others in the early days came up with this.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 06 February 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be aware that this decreases the value of the Advanced Power Conservation trait, though.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Argh!!!

I got bit by the stupidity of the AI with that colony module mod. It's putting colony modules in WARSHIPS because they have more supply storage than the standard supply storage component. ()&*$*&*$@*&!$_**_!$!!

So, I had to drop it to standard supply module capacity so the stupid AI won't use a 400kt component in place of a 10kt component with the same supply capacity. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif You'd think there would be some simple comparisons done when putting a ship together.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

ROFL, that's great! Just goes to show why coming up with an "adequate" ai is harder than people think.

Oh, well. Some extra supply is better than none. Won't eliminate the problem of derelict colony ships, but it should help.

Assistant: Chief, why are we putting a colony module on on this cruiser again?

Chief: Cause His Higness feels the extra range is neccesary to expand his empire of course!

Assintant: But want are they going to shoot at the enemy, cans of spam and bottled water?

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: AI colony ship design
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Argh!!!

I got bit by the stupidity of the AI with that colony module mod. It's putting colony modules in WARSHIPS because they have more supply storage than the standard supply storage component. ()&*$*&*$@*&!$_**_!$!!

So, I had to drop it to standard supply module capacity so the stupid AI won't use a 400kt component in place of a 10kt component with the same supply capacity. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif You'd think there would be some simple comparisons done when putting a ship together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I though AI may do something like that. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Anyways, I am using our mod pack and in it the Mephisto has disabled all the supply components. You may, of course, increase the capacity of Supply Storage I to exceed the capacity of the colony module (give them something like 1500 for colony and 1501,2000 and 2500 for storage). Fixes the problem without hassle.

[This message has been edited by Daynarr (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: AI colony ship design
 

I had even more fun when I raised the supply storage of engine components http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. I started running into empires with 7 engines on their ship because the enginge level III had more supplies than a level 1 Supply storage unit. Of course it only takes up 10KT so it didn't overburden their ship a lot but they were definitly faster in combat.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Hum, this sounds like a worth while edit to make. Did you notice any draw backs to what you did? I mean, did the AI screw up and build ships with max engines, but no supplie containers?

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Did some testing how to eliminate AI derelict colony ship problems in Huge galaxies (254 systems). Following changes were enough that the AI never had colony ships that run out of supply.

1. Added 1000 Supply storage to colony ship modules.
2. Changed engines so that they take supplies as 10,9,8 and made it so that AI uses type III engines (8 supply usage) most of the time...
3. Changed colony module size to 180kt so that AI could add Solar collector component to its colony ship designs. Also made sure that the AI researches stellar harnessing III pretty early in the game, its not expensive: 50k+75k=125k.

With these changes i would say that there are practically almost no limits to colony ships range. Standard colony ship with type III ion engines consumes 200 supplies per turn and the solar collector III collects 150 supplies per turn, so the colony ship uses only 50 supplies per turn now. It has an average operating time of 70 turns now and could move 350 sectors. That guarantees that the colony ship can now travel through 31 systems on average... i think that is enough even in the largest galaxies http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Also i made it so that each AI carrier had 3 solar collectors in its designs. As the AI currently likes to include carriers in its fleets these fleets had much more range... i.e AI fleets could attack several different planets/systems until they had to return back to resupply (note that this has almost no effect on AI carriers since they have only 2 less fighter bays). I've also been thinking to add solar collectors on attack ships, and if you play on Huge galaxies (like 200+ systems) i think it would be wise to add 1 or 2 solar collectors to each AI attack ship design too (depending on the size of these attack ships ofcourse).

Re: AI colony ship design
 

I solved this problem and some other annoying issues to my liking by REMOVING most of the supply capacity from engines and making it an ability specific to each VEHICLE! Bigger hulls generally get more supplies.

I also give most my hulls a built in movement allowance and by limiting the number of engines per hull and using the "engines per move" field give my hulls the number of 'engine rooms' I feel comfortable with for each ship.

I feel a Gunboat should have way less engines than a Dreadnought and any one engine hit on a gunboat should have way more impact than a loss of an engine on a big ship.

So, my Gunboats have a max of 2 engines, with 1 move per engine and a built in movement of 2 while my dreadnoughts can have 12 engines, but move 1 per 4 with a built in move of 1.

The built in movement on the hulls simulates, at least to me, that putting a ship dead in the water, so to speak, forever, is pretty hard to do.The crew can usually get the ship to make some way if given enough time and the vessel isn't in imminent danger of floundering.

I left a little bit of supplies on the engines and at each level give them a little more supplies. Starting at Ion I, my sequence is: 50, 55, 60, 60, 65, 70, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95.

Additionally, I gave all my Ship Bridge components 1 extra move, I have Base specific and Ship specific bridges, if you're wondering.

You're a ship, you lose your bridge, you slow down some, even if you have an aux.




[This message has been edited by Tenryu (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: AI colony ship design
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daynarr:
Anyways, I am using our mod pack and in it the Mephisto has disabled all the supply components. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What exactly do you mean here? Normaly I'd ignore my little voice in my head that want's clarification, but if Mephisto is doin it, it is prob'ly worth snoopin into...



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

Just like it says there. In his mod, Mephisto has removed a lot of the extra components from the ship designs in order to make more space for weapons, armor, shields and more weapons. One of the things he removed are supply components.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

If each ship type's built-in supply capacity could increase with your tech level that would be ideal. There ought to be some inherent damage rating for the hull, too, so the ship has "structure" just like in MOO. This is the innate abilities for ships idea again. I hope MM can do something like this in the future when the AI is working decently.

Edit:

But this works well enough for the colony ship problem. I can add the 'extra fuel tanks' to the colony ship hull type and the stupid AI can't cram a colony ship into a battleship because it has 'supply storage'... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: AI colony ship design
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
If each ship type's built-in supply capacity could increase with your tech level that would be ideal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know, but I suspect it could be done easily with the existing code if they just gave vehicles a 'family' line and then handled vehicle upgrades as per other stuff.

Re: AI colony ship design
 

I have removed resupply, emergency movement and cloaking.
My reason were:
1.) Cloaking was not used by the AI.
2.) I don't use emergency movement personally so I excluded it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
3.) The resupply minister for the Ai is -actually- quite good except for the colonizers. Further, the AI does not travel very far with its ships so they had no real use for extra supply. Instead they could use every bit of space for point defence and weapons. So I kicked the extra supply.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
What exactly do you mean here? Normaly I'd ignore my little voice in my head that want's clarification, but if Mephisto is doin it, it is prob'ly worth snoopin into...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: AI colony ship design
 

I have to say that initially I didn't like the supplies taken out of the ships because some of them tend to run out of supplies even with them. But after playing the mod for a while I found that it didn't seem to happen more often than it did before the mod (yes I did see it a few times but not that often). The ships however were "tougher" so overall it did improve the AI. Now with the increased awareness of the building queue problems and other squashed bugs I think I may have a challenge on my hands after the patch (even before if I would download the new mods). Since I am completing my Twin Galaxies tournament game I haven't had a chance to try the new mods yet but it looks like everything is moving in the right direction.

My attempted mod to the engines I wrote about below wouldn't add extra engines to a mod pack game because the AI only added them in the place of supply storage units. So if you want just add a few more supplies to each level of engine and it should work right. If you want to give the AI some bonus engines you have to tell it to add supply storage and put engine supply levels at a higher level than the supply storage units. They will add the extra engines even though a human player could not (you can't design a ship with warnings but apparently an AI can unless this ability gets patched somehow).

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 09 February 2001).]