Re: Atlantis strategy
 

For a pretender I either recommend a plain Ancient Kraken to help with early expansion and being an all around tough guy. With no picks in magic it's even expandable since it can be quickly called back by the powerful atlantean priests. 10 of them brings it back in one turn!
This pick gives you a lot of points to push into growth and productivity scales.

But since Atlantis sports some very tough sacred troops, as well as freaking monsters for priests, a Nereid pretender with 9 water gives you a lot of bang for the buck. Sacred troops can however only be built at the capital but the priests themselves become powerhouses with the blessing of quickness and defence.

For water warfare you can not go wrong with the lobsterriders. These guys can turn any ocean battle, tough not by themselves. Always put a fair number of lighter troops ahead of the riders to absorb the first strike and consentrate the enemy for a trampling charge.

Atlantean infantry is pretty durable, but expensive in resources, so quickly add tritons and summons to the main force. Shamblers are too expensive and hungry to use in large numbers, but mixing them into the main force gives you a little extra punch against heavy critters.

Tritons and sea serpents make an excellent commander busting force if set on hold and attack archers (or rearmost). Always keep a few of these guys in each army to disrupt underwater spellcasters and mindbLasters.

When you shamble onto land you'll be forced to leave your tritons, lobsters and summons behind. Take this into consideration early so you don't waste money each turn to support troops that are now of no use. Build a landbased fortress, lab and temple ASAP. Most rituals can only be used on land and your enemies know this. They WILL try to push you back into the sea as fast as they can.

Make the fortress in a province that lets to recruit archers. Preferably armored archers since your enemies will try and take them out first in each battle, since you can not easily recruit more. Again summons are a good friend.

As I'm sure you noticed summoning is the Atlantean magic of choice. You quickly get access to the powerful seaserpent and the durable kraken, as well as the second best sitescrying ritual.

If possible try to research Water Strike quickly since this spell will let you dominate seabased battles. Quickness is easy to grab and multiversatile. Your starting spell gives you an early edge against R'lyeh as long as you don't forget to bring watergems.

You strength lies in your strong mages and priests, well besides your flexible ability to rule the oceans. An enemy set to attack rearmost will find that your commanders can take a lot of punishment and still prod buttock. Your infantery is above average and can retreat into the water if they face a superior force. You sacred units can take on three times their own numbers and still win. The lobsters will let you tear to shreds anyone silly enough to attack you in the sea, including mighty R'lyeh.

Your glaring weakness is the lack of missile troops. R'Lyeh will mindbLast you to oblivion if you don't bring enough units and crossbows will wither your army. Knowing this you'll be wise to learn air magic since they contain the ways to render bolts and arrows worthless. A staff of storms is a good investment.

Water magic is unfortunatly cold in it's hostile form, which kills your own troops. Script your mages well and keep the apart from eachother and the troops, since the love casting breath of winter.

Buy priests when you can since waterprovinces usually are spread thin and thus targets of a lot of hostile dominion. You need to pray a lot to keep those white candles.

Expand fast and early since you opponents can't reach you, unless they're strong in Death magic or R'lyeh. These guys are your main enemy, especially the squidfaces. Press the attack against them without fail. If allowed to expand they will beat you in the midgame when their summoning and astral magic comes into play. Tritons and Sea Serpents on attack archers eats squids for breakfast so get some allies quickly.

Once you rule the ocean you need to establish a strong land fortress. If you manage this you will be a nightmare to fight since you can basicly pick your battles at your own terms. Harass the coastline and force your enemies to invest tons of gold into provincial defence and patrollers. Never let your enemy know where you will strike next, which will freak them out since they are busy fighting eachother as well.

[ January 29, 2004, 13:24: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Wow, nice write up Wauthan. I think I'll have to try Atlantis this weekend...

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

I found astral magic rather useful in combat. Banner of the northern star + quicknessed deep seers = lots of stellar cascades.
And even initiates can cast frozen heart, so your combat magic should actually be pretty solid.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Thanks for all that info.

Can I take a +3 cold/hot dominion?
in DOM-I there was no economical penalty for cold/hot underwater provinces

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Why is no one talking about Sailor's Death? In Dom1 it was ~16 armor negating damage to troops not breathing water, magic ressitance negates. Thaumaturgy 4, I think, needs a Water-3 mage to cast it. I have never really used it, though, so I can't say anything but that it LOOKS the spell for Atlantis before Murdering Winter...

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Still true.

Nereid for efficency. Mother Guards *almost* move at water-9.

OTOH, the Dagon is expensive, but FUN. InstaSC!

Rabe the Immersed

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

I get the feeling that people prefer the Nereid with 9 water to the ancient kraken.

does water 9 blessing give cold prot beside quickness?
If so, is it feasible to have an army of sacred troops only? this way the mages can use some devestating cold damage dealing spells.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Waterblessing does not give protection from cold. Which is good since it's arguable the best blessing already. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

While heat/cold scale doesn't affect sea provinces they will have an impact on you when you leave the water. Plan accordingly.

If you want to rely on cold spells for damage then use icedrakes and similar summons to provide a screen for your mages.

[ January 29, 2004, 15:55: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From the combat simulator, it seems that Shamblers are totally worthless. A War Shambler generally loses to 2 normal infantry, even really weak ones - the 3 resource Atlantian infantry, triton guards, independant 5-resource infantry, etc. Plain shamblers do even worse. I would not recommend shamblers, and only War Shamblers versus very heavy armor. They do as well against Ulm heavy infantry as against indy light infantry.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Hmmm... that's fairly odd Saber Cherry. While I'm not questioning your simulator I have not found shamblers to be that worthless. In fact most of the trouble I had have been caused by their low morale rather than their inability to kill things. I've seen bands of plain shamblers beat up heavy cavalery and war shamblers have often been the Last one standing in major battles.

Odd no? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

War Shamblers are often the troop of choice for a variety of reasons:

1- Low resource cost allows more firepower to be generated at speed (at a loss of gold, but speed is often worth it).

2- Size 3 prevents being trampled by size-3 tramplers like minotuars and shambler thralls.

3- The high damage is one of the only Atlantean methods of beating high protection values, often used by players.


The combat program is great, and I love it, but it doesn't tell the whole story.


As for my own Atlantean advice:

War lobsters rule underwater (except versus Rlyeh).

For land battle make War Shamblers if constrained by resources. Make Coral Guard if resources are plentiful. Even though they take heavy losses, always consider the potential of mobs of Atlantean Spearmen.

Spells to keep in mind are: Quickness, Frozen Heart, Paralyze, Soul Slay, and Light of the Northern Star.

For a pretender I prefer the Dagon.

I am not a fan of the Mother Guard, and don't feel that going for a bless effect pretender is worthwhile for Atlantis.

Taking heat/cold +3 was very useful in Dom1 but is FAR less useful in Dom2. In Dom1 most water nations could carve out a huge and wealthy empire in the water. Not so in Dom2. Taking heat/cold +3 will be harsh economically, and I don't suggest it.

Sailors death needs to hit, and then offers a saving throw. It looks great on paper, but fails to impress in practice.

I would never take a god that can't leave the water (Kraken, Nereid).

For long term summons consider winter wolves or sea trolls.

Later in the game if you are doing well, make Kings of the Deep in order to expand your magic paths.

A King that comes in with water-5 can cast Murdering Winter. Always a late game consideration.


Hope this helps someone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

I kinda like the Ancient Kraken with an amulet of the fish, but thats just me.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Good advice Apoger. But, as usual, playing styles diverge and experiences differ. Ain't this a great game or what? Just wanted to toss my comments in to show just how differently two players can look at the same feature.

"There's no such thing as an optimal strategy." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

War Lobsters are top of the list of R'Lyeh busters. Why? Well it's not because of the ineffective trampling. It's because every dead War lobster turns into an ordinary lobster essentially having an extra life. This allows lobsters to tie up the mindbLasters long enough for the tritons to finish them off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dagon is as tough as pretender comes but is so expensive that you'll be giving up both magic and scales in return for slightly faster expansion, than say a Kraken. Don't get me wrong. I've seen Dagons wipe out good armies all by themselves but they tend to be on their knees from afflictions afterwards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Since both Neried and Kraken got an extra misc slot they are easily fitted with an amulet of airbreathing, usually available at the time they are needed on land.

Mother Guards are a slow bunch and not exactly blessing material, thus explaining me favoring the plain Kraken. But they can take one heck of a beating, which I've been unfortunate to experience myself in my latest MP game. A powerful blessing simply makes them worse. And waters quickening is the best way to move the sluggers around. Not to mention hitting twice and high defence. Lousy developers favoring atlantis over C'Tis *grumble grumble*. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Sea trolls are a bit less useful for atlantis than for the ones who are fighting them. They are basicly thougher shamblers that cost more in upkeep. Having a horde of angry Sea Trolls show up outside the coral gates is a good way to ruin the Atlantean spirit of invulnerability. It's how I beat my opponent by the way. Guess he didn't count on lizards having such deep pockets eh?

This has been a good thread so far. Should make one about every faction really. But it would propably just drop from view just in time for the next wave of newbies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A king of the deep with his random in air can easily make an amulet of the fish for either of these pretenders though, and since the Kraken has three misc slots (Too bad he doesn't have 8 or 16 arms:)) he can take one pretty easily.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

I've seen shamblers fight very well in Doms I, especially underwater. Not all that great on dry land, but underwater they can be very effective (that is, against typical opponents). As was mentioned, they're expensive but if you have the cash, you can raise many quickly.

PvK

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Keep in mind that the mercenary War Shamblers are highly experienced, and fare much better than ordinary War Shamblers. I have found plain shamblers to be annihilated quickly when facing Tritons, largely due to their low protection and usage of length-0 weapons against poisoned-weapon-wielding enemies. In fact, low protection is their primary problem, and their high damage output has never seemed very useful to me, underwater, where most enemies are unarmored anyway.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

I've done pretty well with a Dagon with no additional magic. I gave him flying boots, luck amulet, and etheral and just had him quickness/breath of winter/ attack archers. Usually he'd take care of the archers and any nearby commanders while my mages knocked the main army unconcious so they couldn't run.

This was against the AI however, so it probably won't work as well against humans.

Atlantis strategy
 

Hi, I'm about to start an MP game using atlantis.
I have never played that nation.
I am asking people that have already tried playing atlantis to dispense some much needed advice.

A few points.
-> pretender design.
-> troops.
-> How to handle land based expansion?
-> worthy spells.
-> known strengths/weaknesses.
etc.

TIA.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From the combat simulator, it seems that Shamblers are totally worthless. A War Shambler generally loses to 2 normal infantry, even really weak ones - the 3 resource Atlantian infantry, triton guards, independant 5-resource infantry, etc. Plain shamblers do even worse. I would not recommend shamblers, and only War Shamblers versus very heavy armor. They do as well against Ulm heavy infantry as against indy light infantry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMO they are useful primarily against heavy armor and size 3 tramplers (being size 3 themselves they cannot be trampled by minotaurs, shambler thralls, etc.) They might be good against size 4 tramplers too - they would take relatively little damage for high fatigue cost to the size 4 trampler (since both damage and fatigue cost are based on the size difference).

Also, 1 war shambler vs 2 infantry isn't an accurate simulation - because even if there are 50 war shamblers and 100 infantry, the actual line of battle will have something like 20 war shamblers vs 30 infantry. War shamblers get relatively more punch into your frontline.

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Here's what I did Last time I played Atlantis that worked pretty well:

-Took Kraken with no magic and put all into scales.

-Focused on pumping out Deep Seers and putting them into research while using Coral Guard and Kraken to take the sea zones (I had no opposition at sea).

-Powered forward as quickly as possible in Evocation to Level 5 in order to get Falling Frost.

-Meanwhile raiding the coast and preparting to set down Groups of about 4 Deep Seers and 30 Coral Guard lead by a Coral Queen. I keep all of the units near the back so that the Seers have plenty of time to get their spells off.

I like Atlantis since it is a real challenge and seems to depend so much on the map and what the landlubbers are up to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Shamblers? They eat too much for my taste...

[ January 30, 2004, 13:28: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Re: Atlantis strategy
 

Ok, I re-checked the game I had in mind, and yes, I think I was partly remembering Yad Taddag's war shamblers, and Shambler chiefs. Shambler chiefs equipped with magic items can be pretty potent melee fighters.

The unarmed Shamblers are fairly strong but vulnerable, expensive, clumsy, and yes they eat a lot. I think they stand up pretty well against Tritons, but that's not saying much! I only have a few here and there, but I would draft some more in a local emergency as high-powered cannon fodder if I had gold to waste.

After I got the appropriate provinces and some time to build up, I tried to switch the backbone of my undersea forces to Amber Clan Guards. This was against independents and the Doms I Ermorian AI, though, with no Ry'leh nor Atlantis (I was a landlubber), and I've only had limited undersea battles with Doms II and other AI's, and no MP experience yet, so I'm sure there is much I don't know.

PvK

[ January 31, 2004, 17:49: Message edited by: PvK ]