Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't tested that, but I suspect it would work.

Magical items CAN give levels in magic to commanders that didn't have any. So I'd imagine that they could also serve as slaves with the item.

edit: I was wrong, only mages can equip it, but apparent any mage can even if they have no astral.

[ January 29, 2004, 13:05: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tried a communion slave/master matrix on my Alchemist pretender (master) and 8 priests (Slaves) and it didnt work. So priests probably dont count for slave purposes.

[ January 29, 2004, 21:57: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

Damn. Outside of Pangaia it is hard to find a stealthy mage.
But any mage will work?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tried a communion slave/master matrix on my Alchemist pretender (master) and 8 priests (Slaves) and it didnt work. So priests probably dont count for slave purposes. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Makes sense. The definition of a mage is probably any commander that starts with at least one level of any sort of magic except divine.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tried a communion slave/master matrix on my Alchemist pretender (master) and 8 priests (Slaves) and it didnt work. So priests probably dont count for slave purposes. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Makes sense. The definition of a mage is probably any commander that starts with at least one level of any sort of magic except divine. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They don't have to start with it, they just have to have it. Empowerment is fine (although a bit pricy for communion slaves!)

The best communion slave, bar none, is Pythium's Theurg Communicant (which *isn't* a mage but gets automatic Communion Slave anyway). Aside from that, any cheap mage with some astral is good, especially if he is also sacred (Lizard shamans; they are available as independents as well as C'tis; also Crystal Amazon Priestesses). Blood can be used in communions, but Sabbath Master *and* Sabbath Slave have a mandatory slave cost (only one, but still, it adds up if all your slaves are using it). So it's better to use the Astral Versions if you can.

Slave matrixes are kind of a steep investment, but if you have to use them, put them on any cheap mage or mage/priest (Arco priestess, Initiate, Inquisitor, Seraph, Dryad, Witch Doctor).

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Star Children come to mind -- R'lyeh's astral-1, amphibious, mind-bLasting assassin-mages.
Elludian Moon Mages and the Grey Seers (? The mages from the Grey Tower, anyway) are also stealthy astral-mages, but you need the matching magical sites to get them in quantity.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Other than those mentioned, SG Ermor has stealthy dusk elders.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

How exactly does the Pythium Theurg Communicant work?

Thanks
olaf

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just like any other communion slave (the numbers required are the same etc.). Think of him as having a slave matrix - he automatically becomes communion slave at the beginning of the battle.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just like any other communion slave (the numbers required are the same etc.). Think of him as having a slave matrix - he automatically becomes communion slave at the beginning of the battle. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So I just need to have a guy cast the communion master spell, or whatever its called?

What kind of benefits does the communion leader draw from one slave? Does it scale linearly with more slaves?

olaf

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

The benefits of Communion/Sabbath for Masters are:

2 Slaves +1 to all Magic Paths, Including Holy/Unholy
4 Slaves +2 to all Magic Paths, Including Holy/Unholy
8 Slaves +3 to all Magic Paths, Including Holy/Unholy
16 Slaves +4 to all Magic Paths, Including Holy/Unholy

And so on and so on. Then of course fatigue is distributed among the slaves by the masters of the sabbath/communion.

You can only have a Crystal item work on someone who has at least 1 path in magic.

There is no benefit of having odd numbers of slaves except for Fatigue distribution.

Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

Hello,

wondering: does a Slave Matrix (forgable item with astral and earth) work on ALL persons who can hold it? I mean: will it also work with commanders who can cast no astral magic, or even no magic whatsoever?

(I am asking because I would like to try using a race such as Pangaia with no astral magic with my rainbow pretender, he forges some slave matrixes and gives them to cheap commanders (e.g. harpies), then my pretender need just cast communion master and his rainbow powers will be revealed?)

thank you for your info

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didnt know it also booosted Holy. Great.

Question: How can I tell if it is working? Normally when you get power-boosting items on a mage, the little numbers with the icons next to them increase -- I have NOT seen this on the various configs with Masters and Slaves. How do I know when my mages get more power? Or the Priests?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

The game does not indicate in any way at all how much power your mage get from the communion. The only way to tell is that he might cast spells he could not cast before.

Remember that you can script spells that are greyed out because you dont have enough skill. For example you can script communion master,smite,smite,smite,smite on a pythium arch-theurg (who only has holy4), and if you bring at least two communicants he will cast the smite.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

An additional Communion Fun Fact -- spells which normally would just affect the Communion Master will also affect the slaves.
Summon Earthpower will make ALL the communicants -- all masters share all communicants -- get reinvigoration 4, for instance. Invulnerability will make them all prot-30. Phoenix Pyre will make them battlefield-immortal unless unconscious. And so forth.
Just be careful about overdoing the master/slave ratio -- masters may continue casting spells even when communicants go 200+ fatigue, take damage, and quite possibly die. It's helpful to bring along a nature caster for Relief.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

...and if you bring in 2 masters and 4 slaves, do both masters get +2 all spheres or just +1?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

All masters get the bonus of the # of slaves. Depending on what exactly you are doing I commonly go 3 or 4 masters per 4 slaves.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At least for Dom 1, I have the general impression that you can only have one Master. If two cast the spell, the Last one should take over. In general the Slaves will just sit there, not doing anything unless the Master has retreated or maybe killed (didn't check the latter). But I seem to have seen slaves doing thing while Master is still around - not sure whether that was replay error or bugs of the program.

I haven't tested very thoroughly. Have anyone tried after Version 2.* came out?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At least for Dom 1, I have the general impression that you can only have one Master. If two cast the spell, the Last one should take over. In general the Slaves will just sit there, not doing anything unless the Master has retreated or maybe killed (didn't check the latter). But I seem to have seen slaves doing thing while Master is still around - not sure whether that was replay error or bugs of the program.

I haven't tested very thoroughly. Have anyone tried after Version 2.* came out? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I just tested once. There can be more than one Master. I could have mistaken when I checked it in Dom 1 or there are some subtle difference between the spell and the Crystal Matrix, which I used mostly in the old test. The slaves still sit there doing nothing.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

Something you should note as you play with Communion, *sometimes* the Slaves wills it around and do nothing (Which is good) but if the Communion Slave spell doesn't fatigue them above 100+ Fatigue and they have the ability to cast a spell slaves will cast it. It's often a good idea with Commumion/Sabbath slaves to place "hold x5," orders so they don't prematurely fatigue themselves, then kill themselves because the masters cast the big spells. When using 3+ masters you can kill your slaves quite easily as the battle progresses if they don't manage their fatigue (Communion Masters have no problem casting high fatigue spells that will kill slaves, they have no remorse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

Excuse me, how can they die from fatigue? Do units take physical damage (and thus potentially die) at fatigue value XXX+? And if so, can anyone say which value this is? Thank you.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When your fatigue goes over 200 you take damage.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">why sacred?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lower upkeep & ability to get bless effects

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lower upkeep & ability to get bless effects </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I mean besides that. Those are the benefits for sacred troops no matter what. I mean: why do sacred troops make good communion slaves?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could have more than one Communion Master in Dom 1 as well. I'm guessing you don't play Pythium much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

There are some complex spells like eg. Master Enslave that kicks up a fatigue of -800 which I have not bothered to try. I mean apart from Pretenders, can any normal mage cast a spell that causes -800 fatigue? Surely it would kill him. How does experience affect the ability to endure fatigue?

Has anyone tried a really complex spell with Communion Master? Care to share and comment?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lower upkeep & ability to get bless effects </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I mean besides that. Those are the benefits for sacred troops no matter what. I mean: why do sacred troops make good communion slaves? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I haven't tried the Communion really hard yet, but Communion Slaves are normally mages, and you want them in numbers - anything that lowers their upkeep is going to be nice.

As for the blessing - well, if you have, say, an Earth blessing, all of your slaves suddenly have Reinvigoration, which should help them remain in better shape. One Reinvigoration may not seem like much, but if it's multiplied by 4 or 8, it starts to pile up...

Plus, any spell that the master casts on himself also affects the slaves, so the blessing can be easy to distribute without concentrating the slaves on the battlefield.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

Things like Master Enslave, Undead Mastery, Gaia's Blessing and Arcane Domination can be instant battle winners in any particular situation. They are rarely used mostly because they are all Level 9. If you are on in the off chance of a game that Lasts long enough without a clear winner, or try to get one of these particular spells in order to counter another nation (Say Ermor or with Arcane Dominiation, most all other nations late in the game because of their reliance on summons) you can do it.

But they are much less of a 'go for it strategy' and much more of a 'I might as well try this because XXX made me'.

Most of the spells are uncastable by anything but a large communion or high magic pretenders/mages so I give them less thought normally until I'm presented with a situation to use them, instead of the other way around.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

During Dom1 times I once had some fun using communition in somewhat 'reverse' way. A horde of Marignon's initiates (fire1) with slave matrixes and one Grand Master (random in water) with master matrix.

GM had orders to cast quickness - phoenix power - (that astral spell that boosts all paths one up, forget the name), and what do you know, every one of those weeny initiates was hasted and hurling fireballs and -clouds by third turn. Don't know how feasible it is to use communion like that, but it was fun to watch anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lower upkeep & ability to get bless effects </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I mean besides that. Those are the benefits for sacred troops no matter what. I mean: why do sacred troops make good communion slaves? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because of their lower upkeep. If you have an earth blessing it's even better, but the primary requisite of a communion slave is cheapness, because the more slaves the better. (Always have more slaves than masters or they WILL get drained to death.) Other abilities of the slave are largely irrelevant because they spend most of the battle unconscious.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lower upkeep & ability to get bless effects </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I mean besides that. Those are the benefits for sacred troops no matter what. I mean: why do sacred troops make good communion slaves? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because of their lower upkeep. If you have an earth blessing it's even better, but the primary requisite of a communion slave is cheapness, because the more slaves the better. (Always have more slaves than masters or they WILL get drained to death.) Other abilities of the slave are largely irrelevant because they spend most of the battle unconscious. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right thanks.

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

Um Last question:

does the éxtra Fatigue which comes from Armor also get split up among the Slaves or is it only for the caster?

thank you

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

The base cost is divided up equally and then dealt with seperately by each member of the circle. Modifications for skill level (including the master's boosted skill), encumberence, and gem use are all applied at the individual level. This means each member has to pay for his own armor, so to speak.

[ February 01, 2004, 21:55: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THank you.
The master's booster skill only comes in at the individual level? Oh no, I didnt know that. That's why my slaves are having such a hard time. Ok the spell is not quite the bargain I had thought.
I had thought: Spell X which causes Y fatiuge, requiring Q levels, would cost my Master and my slaves less fatiuge because my master is casting it at Q+3 levels, thus the slaves would have less burden to bear? <-- is that wrong?
Does thank

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does this mean that if the master casts a spell that is below his own level (even without the communion bonus) but above the slave's, the slaves still pay full fatigue? And they don't benefit from the master's gem use either? No wonder they pass out so fast...

Let's take a concrete example. A C'tis Sauromancer with his random in Astral, no empowerment or items (Death-3 Nature-1 Astral-1) leads a communion of two Shamans (both Nature-1 Astral-1), boosting his skills to Death-4 Nature-2 Astral-2. He then casts Shadow BLast (Death-2, fatigue 100-, gem cost 1), spending one extra gem beyond the required gem.

From the communion plus extra gem boost, the spell takes effect at level 5 (its range, area of effect, damage and magic penetration are all modified by caster's power). Since he has 3 levels of power above that required to cast the spell, he pays (100 base/(1+3 extra levels))/(3 members of communion) = 8 fatigue plus his base and armor encumbrances. Correct?

Now the slaves. Do they also pay 8 fatigue plus encumbrance (using the same calculation), or do they pay 33 fatigue (100 base/3 members) plus encumbrance? And would it be possible for them to use death gems to reduce fatigue, given that they have no death magic skill of their own?

One more question about communions. If spells that the master casts that affect himself also affect the slaves, what happens if the master casts Drain Life? Or Soul Vortex? Do the slaves get reinvigorated by those effects too?

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe using a Gem to cast a spell doesn't change the path of mage (so his path doesn't change but he is allowed to cast the spell).

Also the Master's Fatigue is distributed among only him and the slaves so it's 100 base/2 slaves +1 Master, not 3 members (AFAIK). So each would take 33 Fatigue + encumberance. But if you have multiple masters apart of the communion they will not be considered apart of it for fatigue distribution.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any 'buff' spell or blessing effect the master casts after they are in the communion affect the slaves but as I stated above, only the master and the slaves, not other masters. I don't believe Drain Life works, but Soul Vortex might. I believe the catch is if the Master has something cast on them or casts something on themselves, not an attack spell that has additional effects.

[ February 02, 2004, 19:10: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Very short question on Communion Master and the slave matrix
 

Another Communion question, since that's the topic of the week...

Can a mage be both a Master and a Slave in a communion? I'm thinking of "sharing the bounties" - say, equip a bunch of varied mages with both Crystal Matrices and Slave Matrices, have each of them scripted with their favorite boosting spell (the Earth boy casts Summon Earthpower, and so on)... even a bunch of Sages could become pretty tough that way...

Come to think of it, it probably doesn't work.