Unit matchups
 

Hi, I'm sure this is a really dumb question, but I've looked around and haven't been able to find the answer.

Do units and / or weapons have inherent advantages against another? (Aside from weapon range and how it applies to repel attempts.) For instance, in other games I've played, all else being equal, pikemen have an advantage against cavalry but are weak against regular infantry. (I don't know if this is historically accurate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

When I see that a province has 20 heavy infantry, for example, I really don't have any idea what it takes to defeat them.

I'd appreciate any help. Thanks.

Re: Unit matchups
 

Morningstars have an advantage agaist shields, in a sense that they ignore the defense (and maybe prot, I don't know about that one) that comes from a shield. Also, ethereal units can be hurt as if they were nonethereal with magic weapons. Some wepons do x2 or x3 damage to undead/demons/magic beings. Other than that, if you mean regular units, no.

Re: Unit matchups
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not a dumb question at all.

I have not seen an inherent advantage in something like pike vs. cavalry. (It may be there, but I've not seen it.) The pike's advantage lay in that it was longer than the lance, so could reach the horseman (or his horse) before the lancer could strike. The pikeman would set the pike into the ground so that the earth, and not him, received the shock of impact when the pike hit the mass of the charging rider/horse. In Dom 2, it seems that the pike's only advantage is that it's longer. There does not appear to be the added bonus that a grounded pike would have vs. charging cavalry.

Some weapons do have advantages. Flails and morningstars ignore shield defenses, for example. This makes them better against things like HI, than swords or spears. Spears get the repel, but the high protection of the HI renders its weak damage fairly moot. Swords do more damage than flails/morningstars, but that damage has to be able to get past protection, hence the flail/morningstar's advantage.

If you have units with giant strength, then weaker but longer weapons become more useful because they can do enough damage to actually be effective on repel. Which is why I prefer spear-armed giants to axe-armed ones.

The best ways to counter HI are (IMO): magic, giants, lancers, your own HI, pikeman, and crossbows. In that order. (I don't claim this is the only way, incidently, just my prefernce.)

Re: Unit matchups
 

Unless specified, I don't think there is any hardcoded benefit for a weapon or weapon type against particular enemies.
AFAIK, only the properties of the weapons matter (ie : damage, attack, defense, range, and misc. specials like morningstar's shield bypassing ability, poison ...).
Unless I am mistaken, pikes are useful against charging cavalry, because you can repel the lance attack (pikes and long spears are longer), but that's it.

Re: Unit matchups
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Undead are good too - they don't fatigue, and HI do.

Re: Unit matchups
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IIRC this is wrong. Repel if succesfull deals 1 point of damage regardless of the strength of the guy carrying the weapon.

Edit: The main strenght of repel is that if succesfull it forces a morale check to see if the attacker actually carries through his attack or if he is intimidated by the longer weapon.

[ February 01, 2004, 00:31: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

Re: Unit matchups
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Incorrect on the automatic 1 damage.

Step 1: The defender (with longer weapon) must overcome the attacker's defense rating. If successful, move on to step #2.

Step 2: Attacker must check morale. If successful, move on to step #3.

Step 3: Defender hits attacker. Resolve as normal, except that damage is capped at 1. It is possible to do no damage at all. (This is where strength does matter.)

Step 4. Attacker hits defender. Resolve normally.

Please note that if the defender has extras such as poison, decay, etc. that the attacker can be killed by a repel that does "only" 1 point.

[ February 01, 2004, 00:51: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Unit matchups
 

Overall flails seem like the best weapon to use.

Aside from that though, the 'best' weapon seems to be very dependent on the unit you are facing.

olaf

Re: Unit matchups
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Shure about that?
I'm still waiting for a definite statement from the devs about it, or alternativly some "proofed statement" from a player, 'cause I haven't seen any poisoning from a repel so far.

[ February 01, 2004, 08:28: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Unit matchups
 

There is a one point dmg max from successful repell attempts, but this is not a regular attack (code-wise) and would probably not use any specials of a weapon such as poison or fire, perhaps even magic (vs ethereals). Not sure though.

Re: Unit matchups
 

I believe I have seen a Herald Lance repel undead with an effect. Maybe only certain 'on hit' parameters and not base damage parameters. Does it also account for damage type, or is that what you were saying? Could test it with a Lightning Spear and try to repel someone who is and who isn't shock resistant to see.

[ February 01, 2004, 08:51: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Unit matchups
 

Thanks for all the responses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

How are you all seeing the effects of a repel, btw? Even if I were to set up a test battle, I'm not sure I'd know when one unit attacked the other.

Re: Unit matchups
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have this problem too. There just isnt enough feedback when watching replays to tell exactly what is going on. Who is attacking who, etc.

olaf

Re: Unit matchups
 

Well it's fairly simple to tell whose turn it is. Most of the time each players 'turn' is started movement of troops (or arrowfire).

If you watch a battle and someone advances (or their sprite changes to the 'attack' sprite) it's their turn. How you tell if repel works, is by checking the hit points of the units in the front line before they attack then after they attack. The ones who have been damaged have been repelled (unless there is an effect, like Fire Shield, etc on them).

While incredibly cumbersome with the current battle playback system (no VCR controls) it's possible to test repels and other things by staging battles if you have alot of paitence. Or alternatively if you arn't looking for something new, try the combat simulator.

Re: Unit matchups
 

Other advantages of pikes over heavy cavalry in dominions besides reach are their cheapness per unit, and small size per unit which enables a group of them to bring more weapons onto the same space on the battlefield, which is more attacks and cumulative defense penalties for multiple attacks.

PvK

Re: Unit matchups
 

When you have infantry facing heavy cavalry, repelling is a real advantage, since heavy cavalry usually have the attack and damage rating to overcome defense and protection. Any longer weapon will do, but with pike you are sure to get it, while spear is not certain (some heavy infantry carry spear, and spear won't block the lance attack), and anything shorter won't work.

But the best way to protect your heavy infantry from the enemy's cavalry lance attack is to have a rank of slaves/hoburg militia/slinger/ woodsman blowpipe in front. Works like a charm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif