Burden of Time
 

If I'm a non-astral nation in a game containing Ermor, I can think of 3 ways of responding to the threat of Burden of Time:

1. Kill Ermor before it happens;
2. Resign immediately;
3. Die painfully after it happens.

Any others?

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">4. Wait for an astral nation to dispel it.
5. Use undead units yourself until it gets dispelled.
6. Cast other global enchantments to push it out.
7. Kill Ermor after it happens.
8. Kill the mage that cast the Burden of Time.
9. Empower a mage to be able to dispel it.
10. Help an astral nation to dispel it by giving them astral pearls.
11. Use cheap units for the meantime instead of any expensive ones you might have.
12. Use independent mages that have astral skill to dispel it.
13. Design your pretender with astral magic.

[ February 03, 2004, 01:08: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Burden of Time
 

14) Cast it before he does! IIRC your troops don't get the diseases from your own casting, but your provinces do get the unrest.
15) Cast Gift of Health. Still have to worry about the unrest (Fata Morgana is a good counter for that though), but most of the afflictions will be cured eventually. Don't leave expensive artifacts on weak heroes - commanders can just die sometimes and you don't even get a note saying who died so it is pretty annoying.
16) Fill up the global spell list before he gets it cast

edit note: interesting that my three are all different then GDs big list (I renumbered mine since he beat me) - as usual there is more than just a couple of ways to skin a cat in Dom!

[ February 03, 2004, 01:14: Message edited by: geo981010 ]

Re: Burden of Time
 

If it's multi-player, convince/help someone else to cast Dispel, and/or persuade Ermor to not cast it.

Or:

Get someone to Astral-3 (empower/item/hire mercenary) to dispel.

Kill/assassinate the caster of the spell by various means (assassin, magic, steath commandos, non-stealth attack).

Bump the spell off the enchantment list using your own global enchantments (be sure to enjoy your other enchantments while doing so).

Go kill/maim Ermor after they cast it. Use cheap rebuildbale and/or unaging units for a while.

PvK

Re: Burden of Time
 

Hmmm, OK, thanks. In practice, against a strong Ermor (and having no idea who or where the casting mage is) and without relying on help from others, the best suggestions seem to be Gift of Health and using cheap unit.

Maybe I can hang in there after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Burden of Time
 

As a somewhat related question, if you 'kill' an immortal mage in his capital with, say, a seeking arrow, does it dispell the ritual spells he was maintaining ?

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well yes but, in fairness, many of the entries in the list of 16 either:

1. Violate my assumption that the victim is a "non-astral nation", by which I meant that the pretender has no astral and the nationals could only get it by random pick, at best; or

2. Rely on someone else solving the problem; or

3. Contradict each other (#6 and #16 can't both work).

Add to that the practical difficulty of wiping out Ermor while suffering BoT, being lucky enough to find independants with astral or knowing where and how to kill the casting mage, and the list of practical options becomes somewhat shorter, I think.

Re: Burden of Time
 

Sure, there are ways to combat it, but at 70 pearls, it is both too cheap for its effects and too difficult for non-Astral mages to dispel. In my experience, not only Ermor but also Jotunheim and even R'yleh cast it like mad, which ends in every time I dispel it (at absurd cost) it gets cast again right off by the same nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I think it is a rather overpowered spell. It should be a super-expensive hard to get spell, but it isn't.

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">70 gems is _not_ cheap. That's 7 turns of Ermor's base gem income.

Re: Burden of Time
 

Considering how it, in a few turns, cripples the armies of all of your enemies, I think 70 gems is very cheap for what it does.

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any nation can put astral magic on their pretender.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which isn't going to be that much of a problem in most MP games. There are bound to be nations with good astral income that dislike it just as much as the non-astral nations. Besides, casting BoT is an effective method of declaring war on everyone in the game, so Ermor should shortly be overwhelmed.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would be wrong. #6 and #16 are essentially the same thing. Filling the global enchantments works via the same effect as casting other's to push out burden of time. Why should they all have to be able to work at the same time in order to be a useful solution anyways?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How to kill the casting mage isn't that bad. Find provinces with labs and cast commander killing spells at it. Cast them at large armies as well. Use your assassins if you have them.

[ February 03, 2004, 03:00: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cripples? Not really. It gives afflictions to a few of your units every turn, and can kill a few others.

Re: Burden of Time
 

Yes, and dispel only costs 30 (though there is the guessing game on overpowering to consider). Moreover, in a game with more than two human players, casting BoT means they are attacking everyone else, and the others will be even more likely to gang up on Ermor than they already were.

PvK

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What I meant was, filling up the table either prevents the casting of further GEs or it doesn't (I'm not sure which).

If it does, then #6 can't work, while if it doesn't then #16 can't work.

I must be missing something ...

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It doesn't do either. When there are five global enchantments each new enchantment must overpower an existing enchantment in order to take effect. Thus filling up the list makes it harder for new enchantments to take effect, but also allows for new enchantments to push out old ones.

Re: Burden of Time
 

Aha. Got it.

Re: Burden of Time
 

Hi.
Has anyone ever had GE's NOT disappear when you kill the mage? Right now I'm playing a SP game, and three GE's put in place by C'tis are still active, ten turns after I eliminated them from the game. Two of these are Burden of Time and Foul Air, so you can guess how annoyed I am.
Oh, and the GE I put up disappeared promptly when the mage was killed. Of course.
I guess this is just a bug... just wondering if anyone else has experienced it.
I'm playing the seven-nation rumble scenario if that makes any difference.

cheers...

Re: Burden of Time
 

GEs go away if you kill the casting mage. However, in the case of C'tis, it's possible you eliminated them without killing the actual mage who cast the spell, and as a result, he was never really "killed", even though he faded away upon the elimination of the nation.

Of course, now he no longer exists, so you can't kill him. Or so goes my theory on the matter, anyway.

Re: Burden of Time
 

Hmm, I didn't know that could happen. I'm pretty sure that's not the case though. I took their capitol and killed their pretender after conquering all their territory, so none of their troops were left to 'fade away'. Unless they had a stealthy empoisoner somewhere who had taken his death-magic vitamins... actually, I remember now that Foul Air was cast on the same turn that I eliminated them. They had only the one province at the time; it couldn't have been cast from anywhere else, and all their troops were killed in the Last battle.

Anyway, it's not a big deal, I was just wondering if this was a known bug. I tried searching and found a 27-page post on bugs that I didn't feel like reading through... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

cheers...

Re: Burden of Time
 

If a unit routs in the final battle for a castle (Storming) it will retreat to a nearby province. If you kill the God and he has no dominion, suddenly those units 'disappear' (Prophet is the main culprit).

So if the caster of the original spell 'routed' instead of died or in some way got away (if it wasn't the God who cast the spell) the effect will be there for the length of the game until they are overpowered or dispelled.

Re: Burden of Time
 

I understand that part about the routing troops but I'm quite sure none got away, since it was just the mage-pretender and a handful of lackeys at the bitter end.
I went back to an earlier saved game and tried the battle again, only this time I attacked too early and Foul Air wasn't cast... so I can't confirm there was a caster in the only remaining territory who got killed and subsequently didn't have his GE cancelled. Not until tomorrow anyway, it's late and I'm getting, heh, sleepy.

g'night, and thanks for the replies so far...

Re: Burden of Time
 

My favorite route for dispelling Burden of Time (or anything else) is to use the Coytl. An Earth 1 Astral 1 mage can summon one. The Cotyl has Earth 3, Astral 3, and can dispel. It is a way to save a lot of gems if you have some earth gem income.

BTW, Burdon of Time does not just hit a few troops with afflication, it is often 100 or more. And even as Pangea with Gift of Health, units die every turn. Even worse, BoT seems to kill off the population in your provinces.

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is one of the most frustrating flaws in the game. If a commander dies from a spell, disease, or whatever... the game should let you know.

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pst! Nature, not Earth. Couatl is also a holy-3 priest.

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It probably does, since my income has been taking a nosedive ever since BoT was cast. That's partly due to the increases unrest as well. The lack of income is nearly as annoying as having a mage go mute or feebleminded every few turns. Since most of my troops are now walking wounded AND complaining about back pay, I've decided to go with the flow and convert to a dead army. Since I can't get rid of BoT anymore I may as well use it to help me against the Last two nations.

cheers...

Re: Burden of Time
 

This is only for SINGLE PLAYER games. MP is different.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1. Good solution
2. That’s an option but I would hardly call it a solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
3. Same as 2

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">4. In SP you might as well use 2 or 3. It’s extremely rare occurrence that AI dispels GE. It usually overwrites it with BoT of it’s own and that won’t help you.

5. That’s doable only for other nations with undead themes (C'tis and Panganea and C'tis is astral nation). Other nations won’t have time or gem to use that option as winning strategy. However, it CAN be used to reduce casualties and strengthen your armies while BoT is active.

6. BoT is level 5 enhancement. If there is a nation who can cast it (has mage/pretender and has enough death gem income) it will probably be a first or one of the first GE that has been cast. This spell is, basically, cast very early in game or not at all. So this suggestion means that I have to cast 3-4 other GE in order to fill 5 GE limit and then cast some other HOPING that I will manage to dispel some existing enchantment and HOPING that BoT is the one being dispelled. That is not mentioning the gem cost and research needed to do that.

7. If you didn't do it by then you most certainly won't kill it while your troops commanders and mages are getting afflictions and dying from BoT and your income is dropping down while unrest is going up. Of course, this can be doable in some situations, so I wouldn't rule it out. It's just not very likely.

8. That is definitely a good solution but you have to know what mage cast it (can be red in Messages in 2.08 Version) and where he is. Finding that mage is usually very tough, but if you do find him - killing him would be best solution.

9. In order to empower mage you need astral gems (and a lot of them). For non-astral nation it’s not a valid solution since they have no astral income.

10. Hardly doable in SP game. Basically same as 4. Not to mention that if you can't dispel it yourself (have not enough gems), how could you help other nations do it? By cheering for them? J

11. Cheaper units die faster from BoT since they are less resistant and have less HP. Actually using large, more powerful troops is better way to go. They will get afflictions but won’t die and unit with affliction is certainly better then dead one. Basically you can either use all your income to buy troops or not, but if you buy cheap troops you will only get nearly useless army that will die like flies each turn from BoT and will additionally get overrun by and other army they encounter. This one is hardly any better then 2 or 3.

12. Independent mages hardly ever have more then 1 level in astral, and you need luck to find them at all (usually sages are your only option). Have you ever tried to get your sage to level 3 astral and dispel something with him? I never did since by the time you manage to do it, game is usually over. And it still depends too much on luck even to find one. And if you don’t have one by the time BoT is cast this is impossible to achieve since it takes too much time to do it. BoT is gonna get you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

13. Nation with astral pretender is no longer non-astral nation so it has no place in this discussion.

14. So instead of letting AI kill you and spend 70 gems for it, you are gonna kill yourself and spend 70 gems for it? BoT has effect on ALL LIVING TROOPS, not to mention killing population and increasing unrest.

15. Gift of Health is good buffer for BoT so this is a good delaying solution for nature nations. Of course only 1 can be cast at the time and there are usually several nations on map that will be able to cast it. AI actually like casting it so you will be hard pressed and need some luck to make sure active ‘Gift of Health’ it YOUR ‘Gift of Health’ but its doable. I often resort to this if I can't dispel BoT.

16. Much like 6.

-------------------

In MP this is completely another story. Only death nations will benefit from it and death nations have diplomacy problems with other players without this spell. Casting it would basically give you Mega evil empire status (from SE4). You would most certainly get gang banged from every other player on that map. Imagine your provinces getting bLasted with every damaging spell available from every other nation on map, while their troops invade all your borders looking under every bush and rock to find smart mage that casted BoT. You would probably be better of killing caster yourself then waiting for other players to do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Burden of Time
 

edit: dammit nevermind, I completely forgot I was only at the top of the second page of this thread and not the end of the thread....

...*mumbles something about reverse post order*....

[ February 14, 2004, 09:35: Message edited by: Xavier ]

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If so, I'm lucky. The only time I've seen the AI cast BoT, the very next turn, another AI dispelled it.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your arguments seem to assume the player's nation is rather weak, to be ruling out so many options. Such assumptions aren't saying much about BoT - you're mainly saying that if you're weak and they're strong and using BoT on you, then you're in trouble. If you're that weak though, you're in trouble when they do anything to you. Being unable to dispel any global enchantments is of course a weak situation to be in - many global spells are hard to deal with if you can't dispel them or cast something better yourself.

On the other hand, getting someone up to enough Astral to be able to dispel isn't all that hard. I did it with Iron Faith Ulm with an Astral-1 priest, and it wasn't hard. There are some items that can make this pretty cheap, especially if you have construction bonuses. If you assume they don't have astral gems to do this, you're saying they're too lame to dispel anyway. And you're probably ignoring that any gems can be made into astral gems at a 2:1 rate with alchemy, if need be.

As for cheaper units being more vulnerable to BoT... how does BoT take effect? What resists it?

PvK

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course you can do it. I've done it with default Ulm while fighting against an Impossible C'Tis, Marignon, and Abysia.

Re: Burden of Time
 

I wonder if regeneration rings help protect agaist BoT.

I also wonder if Vengeance of the Dead counts BoT victims against the caster? If it does, that would make for a very unpleasant nightmare for the caster, and a good way to take out any caster of a killing spell.

So far, I have had good luck finding AI GE casters in their national capital. It was so satisfying seeing my succubus (barely) kill that Arch Theurg Prophet who had cast Wrath of God! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Oh, another possibility is to summon a caster. There are some spells which give you spellcasters, which depending on your other magical abilities, could turn out to be a shortcut to a dispeller.

Another minor counter-tactic is casting a spell that prepares for death. BoT could save you some maintenance gold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[ February 14, 2004, 18:16: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Burden of Time
 

So basically, there's too sides to this debate:

1) Burden of Time is one of those insanely powerful spells that can wipe out whole armies and empires in a dreadfully short amount of time, and has lost people games all by itself.

2) There are many things you can do to get rid of it.

It seems to me that both of these are good points, but neither really cancels out the other. I fall on the 'Burden of Time is too nasty' side of the debate, because although there are many ways to be ready for it, it is easily possible to lose JUST because of that one spell if you're not prepared. Maybe you have the research to get to level 5 enchantment in time - or maybe you're not playing a high-research game and you don't. Particularly if your wizards are dying off and your pretender is being crippled with wounds.

I just don't feel that any one spell should be so nasty that you *have* to be ready for it. One of the strengths of this game is that you can play it in all sorts of ways tailored to your individual style. Something that is so overbearing that you *have* to make sure Dispell is handy (and that's a considerable resource investment, greatly changing your style) is too much.

Re: Burden of Time
 

Burden of Time is only one of the Global Enchantments, many of which are very nasty. Not being able to dispel any Global Enchantments will always be a big liability IF you get into the high-level magic stage of play.

In a multi-player game, most Globals threaten everyone, and there will most likely be someone with enough astral competence to dispel.

In the special case of a single-player game where you don't want to get dispel ability and there is an enemy like Ashen Ermor that doesn't mind Burden of Time themselves, then yes it gives more urgency to dispelling it.

For a nation not like Ashen Ermor, though, BoT is going to hurt them as well. Nations basing their forces on undead have major weaknesses to cheap priests, who are easy to mass-produce and it doesn't matter if some of them die every turn. And, several other anti-undead techniques. There are plenty of things that are scarily powerful about death and unholy magic and Ashen Ermor etc., even without BoT. There are also many things that bLast them to dust, take them over, get them all to dissolve, etc.

PvK

Re: Burden of Time
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very lucky. In my games BoT is cast at 1:3 ratio during first 30 turns. In my Last game Jotunheim cast it on turn 15. Never saw AI dispel it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not necessarily weak, just assuming it is cast early in game since it is level 5 spell and AI is able to cast it much sooner in game, limiting your options greatly. In order to empower mage to cast dispel using alchemy you need large gem income (100 gems to make 50 astral gems and give mage 1st level of astral, 60 gems for 30 astral for 2nd). You do need to research dispel which is also 5th level like BoT, and if you try to use items to boost astral on mage, you need level 6 in construction as well. All this is assuming you direct your research efforts and gem income to counter BoT at the start of the game, not after BoT is cast. If BoT is already cast, you simply have no time to boost and research what is needed to dispel it.

I am assuming this is on default game settings, not gold/magic rich/poor maps.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not entirely sure about what helps resist it, but I know high HP helps. Mages seem to be quite vulnerable to it so magic resistance is unlucky to be helpful against it (though I'm not 100% sure about it). Sage’s die quite often from it so that is why empowering one may be bad idea. Units in Ashikaga mod seem to endure it quite well but I'm not sure why (their units mostly get afflictions, and not die).


-------


I'll post best strategies to counter BoT for each nation separately that I know of, so fell free to add any comments.

Abyssia - In next patch demons won't be affected by BoT so best way is to focus on blood economy (which is what you probably already do playing this nation) and rely on demons as your army. Also, using national hero as assassin to find and kill caster is valid option.

Atlantis - I'm not sure how is Atlantis affected by BoT but their best bet is to rely on dispel, since they are astral nation.

Pythum - Powerful astral nation so dispelling it is probably easiest for them. They can even try to use the 'Vengeance of the Dead' spell to kill the caster.
They will have more trouble if they use 'Serpent cult' theme, so they should go for Gift of Health if they can't dispel it.

Man - Gift of Health, try to find the caster and use seeking arrow if possible or some other means to kill him. Crones seem to be quite vulnerable to BoT so Man player will have problems as soon as BoT is cast.

Ulm - I don't play much Ulm, but they would probably have most trouble with BoT considering their inferiority in magic area. Use what you can or simply try to overrun enemy that casts BoT (and hope he is the only one). Whatever you do, do it fast.

C'tis - If you play default or miasma, you can try to go for undead troops until you or someone else dispels it. They have astral income and shamans so they can go for dispel.
If you play 'Desert Tombs' theme, you don't want BoT removed! Even if it affects your income, switch all your undead priests to raise soulless and you will have huge army even sooner then Ermor.

Arcoschepale - Dispel is valid option on both themes and they have Priestess to heal troops so BoT shouldn't bother them much.

Caelum - Using surgical strike with flying troops on caster is possible option (if you manage to find him and he is not that strongly protected). BoT will hurt them so they have to think about counter before BoT is cast.

Ermor - They get only benefits from BoT so no counter needed.

Marignon - Varies with the theme. Default could go for dispel.
'Diabolical' faith could go for demons (like Abyssia) and think about dispelling it in the future, although they wont be as affected as other nations.
'Conquerors of the sea' Marignon can get it dispelled more easily then previous 2 themes.

Panganea - Go for 'Gift of Health' until you find and kill the caster. Most of their troops heal afflictions automatically and have significant number of HP so they won't be hit so hard as most other living nations.
If you use 'Carrion Woods' theme, you will benefit from BoT.

Vanheim - This will be more difficult, but they can try to go for blood economy and build demon or undead troops until they manage to get rid of BoT by some other means. Vanheim can be hurt badly with BoT so you should think and prepare to counter it before it is cast.

Jotunheim - Their troops have lots of HP so they should get mostly afflictions from BoT. They have a wide variety of options that covers using undead or/and demon troops, dispelling it or simply trampling foolish nation that hides caster.

R'lyeh - Dispel is best and fastest option. You don't want undead armies massing and invading sea provinces.

Mictlan - They can use both demons and dispel it (using their moon priests). They should preferably do it both since their normal troops aren’t very resistant and mages can die from BoT as well (which hurts Mictlan much more).

T'ien Chi - Dispel it FAST. Could use a little preparation before BoT is cast, but using alchemy to speed up dispel is probably best for this nation.

Machaka - 'Gift of Health' is valid option and their best mages aren't so vulnerable to BoT. Still, you will want to get rid of it ASAP. If you get Black Sorcerer with astral skill, you can try going for 'Vengeance of the Dead' to kill caster.

Overall, counters depend on lots of factors, like who casted spell (if caster is enemy pretender you will probably have hard time killing him – Vengeance of the Dead is probably best way to get rid of pretender caster), your pretender (all nations can get good astral income if they use astral pretender), your and enemy location (if nation that has BoT active is on the other side of the map, attacking it using normal troops is hardly and option), etc.

[ February 14, 2004, 12:54: Message edited by: Daynarr ]