Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Edit: Changed the thread name. THIS IS NOT just about my disintegration strategy. I want to see some duels taking place here. I'm also always looking for a good duel.

Arrite, this is a debate and duel thread. You say something "arguitive" and then you duel on Dominions 2 to prove your point.

So here I go, explaining what I know so far about my disintegration strategy. The following is what I've learned through experience.

What is easily defeated?
1. Super Combatants
2. Strong units which come in few amounts
3. Independant Provinces
4. Province defence

Weaknesses
1. Archers/Crossbow Infantry
2. Fodder
3. Caelum Flying Units
4. Hawk summons
5. Fires from Afar
6. Magic Resistance
7. Destroying castle walls

Fixes
1. Spread fodder all over the battlefield and cast Raise Skeletons
2. Guard mages with fodder and cast Raise Skeletons
3. No fix yet
4. Fodder
5. Fodder
6. Numerous mages can take anything down. My +3 magic scale helps a lot.
7. Fodder

Weaknesses based on gameplay luck
1. Being attacked before turn 20
2. Upkeep
3. Trying to secure/hold provinces
4. The strategy requires expanding as fast as possible.

Fixes
1. None
2. None
3. Destroy my own provinces with tax while taking the enemies' provinces and doing the same thing. (That leads to major income problems)
4. None


Also what I do to be protected from fodder and arrows, I have lots of shamans casting Body Etheral and Luck on my mages.

[ February 03, 2004, 17:13: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

It'd help me at least if I had any clue what your disintegration strategy was...

And no, I'm not going to play you Online to find out, I don't have the time (or interest really) for that right now.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Basically I mass produce Shamans and C'tis mages and reaserch disintegration and raise skeletons. I also reacherch other stuff like Communion Slave/Master, sometimes mass protection, etc.

If you really feel I'm an arrogant bragger, please feel free to put me in my place with a good duel, it's what I made this thread for. I'm going to safely say (for now until you put me in my place) Caelum is my only weakness.

[ February 03, 2004, 18:14: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Sounds like the disintegration wand and skull talisman that I like to put on my assassins

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">eh, not exactly... what is a disintegration wand??? DUEL TIME!! Prove to me a disintegration wand exists before I destroy your nation, lol!!!

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

I can take you on. Let me just make a Kristoffer-is-master-patch that allows me to make cheap disintegration wands, but not you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wonder what it would be like to verse and win against a programmer of the game. Although, I might refuse a "Kristoffer-is-master-patch".

[ February 03, 2004, 21:31: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Wait this thread isn't going as I planned.

... Ill post a duel request later this week. Someone needs to put me in my PLACE.

[ February 03, 2004, 21:33: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wonder what it would be like to verse and win against a programmer of the game. Although, I might refuse a "Kristoffer-is-master-patch". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My friend beat the guy who designed Diplomacy at his own game. Certainly made him proud.

As for Kristoffer's "master patch" I doubt he'd need that to win http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

@ Argitoth: don't get too cocky! I almost beat you with a ridiculous "dominion rush" strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If that sort of absurdity can get you down to 1 Dominion in 1 province in 25 turns, I'd not toot my horn too much yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ February 03, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Sounds like Argitoth and diamondspider need to fight it out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Fight fight fight!!!!

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We already did! Funny game, I almost Dominion killed him between turn 25-30 but he came back and I ended-up resigning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Was fun, but I didn't find his "secret technique" to be all that strong really. LOTS of counters to it, although it seemed perfectly reasonable.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Remember everyone, 8 dominion is not THAT easily overcome unless you do something stupid like forget to ressurect your pretender, thats what I did in my DiamondSpider game.


ALSO!!!! Don't think there are lots of counters for my strategy, in a 1v1 I only use what I need to counter YOUR strategy. If it's a 4v4 it's a bit more tough for me because now I have two different strategies at once.

Ok, so there are lots of counters. BUT!!! I have come up with numerous counter-counters!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 04, 2004, 00:00: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How about a Black Forest Ulm using vampire counts to raise skeletons and cast disintegration, with rangers behind them and ghoul guardians out front? Add a member of the second tier to cast antimagic. A fortune tellers with nature for astral healing, and if really late game one with death for nether bolts.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

That won't work!

Ulm can't reaserch for beans, there's no way he's getting disintegration, not to mention the scales Ulm needs to survive...

+3 order and +3 production.

There's just no way...


See, now it's duel time if you want to prove your point.

[ February 04, 2004, 01:48: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm perfectly willing to try it out. Just let me know where to find you.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Lol, perfect. We can duel on a friday night or sometime saturday. I'm busy with school monday through friday. Sound good to you?

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. Sounds good.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

We need other "D&D" players too. Find your undefeatable strategy and start debating.

I don't want this thread to remain centered on my strategy.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

CALLING GRAEME DICE!!

Yo, We might have to do this on sunday. You availible?

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd be happy to just play a game, but people these days are such weenies with incredibly short attention spans. Can't even get people who can concentrate for more than about 2 hours straight, let alone 20. I remember in the old days, it was no problem finding people who could concentrate on something for 30 hours straight, and there was something WRONG with you if you couldn't easily do 20. Nowadays, you're lucky if you can get somebody who's attention span is longer than 20 minutes. Bah.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try talking to Zen then. He and I had no trouble playing a game (with 2 others as well) Last night for a couple of hours (until someone won) and then Zen and I chatted for a few more hours after that.

The real problem is that we have too many twitch gamers who think TBS is just really slow RTS. No thinking, no subtlety, no elegance. Just build hordes and throw them at someone. Bah.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. I'll need to see if I can get AIM to work again. What's your contact info?

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

You should get Trillian


AIM: Argitoth
ICQ: 169752168
MSN: Argitoth@hotmail.com
Yahoo: Argitoth

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bah, indeed. I recently had the displeasure of making such an acquaintance. He *SAID* he liked strategy games. Then he complained the game was too slow and there wasn't any action! 5 turns later, he'd lost about 5 provinces to random events, and I hadn't even lifted a finger to actually attack him yet. Then on the moment one of the other players attacked him while he was complaining *I* wasn't attacking him, he quit the game.

What a baby.

Then I find out from the person who invited him over in the first place that this person is, in fact, a Starcraft weenie. BAH!

[ February 08, 2004, 00:07: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Unimportant post.... Just read the above.

[ February 09, 2004, 04:06: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Any noteworthy disintegrations?

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

About disintegration... I casted it a few times and it did nothing. I was going to assassinate his commanders with disintegration but my assassins died when they retreated during assassinations. That is a bug, so I gave up on assassinations after that.

[ February 09, 2004, 04:08: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

It's not a bug. It's a game parameter. You can't retreat from an assassination attempt. I believe it's intentional.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Graeme Won... damn... The battle took around 8 hours to finish. I gave up by turn 66 after my pretender died from an unknown cause casting Stygian Paths. (He didn't die from the spell)

I was making 31 death gems a turn after casting Well of Misery.

Graeme... he had some really evil plans. He started causing lots of unrest. I was able to contain it for a little while Until I got massive spam "UNREST YOU IDIOT DO SOMETHIUNG ABOUT IT"... I couldn't do anything.

He started casting Hordes from Hell. I finally got Well of Misery and began casting Ghost Riders and Arouse Hunger like crazy. It didn't seem to do anything but Graeme said, "Ahhh. I was finding them to be very annoying."

I casted Plague on his home province just to try it out. I could have casted it a lot more times. Only after the end of the game did Graeme tell me his home province went to 9000 population after my only casting of the spell. I gotta cast that more often!

Really exciting game, but I got tired that his Vampire Queen pretender ran away from my pretender instead of fighting to HER death. Yes, she would have permanently died if she didn't run.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pict...gitothDies.JPG
This shot was taken in the heroes list. My pretender died right after casting Stygian Path.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pict...ygianPaths.JPG
This is the news confirming my pretender and all his units safely went through.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/thebattle.JPG
This is the battle. My pretender is nowhere to be seen. Note: He is resistant to cold. Another note: I made the wights start in the front while my pretender stayed a bit more in back. Another another note: I checked the message from the battle and there were no commanders included.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/Unrest.JPG
Daaaamn.... look at all the unrest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/research.bmp
My knowledge is absolute! Supreme! I know all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/Island66.JPG
End-game look of Urgaia.

[ February 09, 2004, 04:45: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I retreated from my assassination attempt. I scripted "Disintegrate, Retreat" so if they were found, they would retreat in the province closest province (which I owned). It DID work that way until I actually tried assassinating. My assassins used the disintegrate and retreat script and died even though you are not supposed to be able to retreat AND even if you did retreat, you could have gotten to a home province.

[ February 09, 2004, 03:44: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Well obviously it's your fault. You can't retreat from an assassination attempt. Next time don't script your mages to Retreat when you plan on assassinations.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

This was definetly a good game. I was sure that Argitoth was going to attack me early on, while I had the territorial advantage, but he had the magic advantage. I had spent my first ten turns building wolfherders to use as patrollers, and it took a very long time to catch up in the research race. My capitol also got hit with the plague event around turn 50, but since I wasn't relying on it for troops I didn't worry too much about it. It finished off with 9000 population.

I was also very worried when he made it to level 9 conjuration, cast well of misery, then proceded to drop a lot of ghost riders and arouse hunger all over my territory. Thankfully, my blood slave income was good enough to cast hordes from hell on every turn to retake the provinces. I also reached level 9 conjuration just shortly thereafter, and was able to also cast ghost riders. I chose to cast in on the same provinces every turn however, to drive unrest up as quickly as possible. Once I had enchantment 9 also researched, I took my entire group of 20 illuminated ones and sent them into Argitoth's home provinces to cause unrest. The plan was originally to have them wait there until my nether bolters arrived and then to use them as communion slaves, but they worked well just by themselves.

I eventually had to cast dispel twice on his Well of Misery, and burnt up over 100 nature gems and 40 death gems to make sure it went away.

Manifestation is a decent assasination spell for BF Ulm, as the vampire counts are often tough enough to deal with the ashen angel.

Anyways, the links below are to some pictures describing various parts of the end game.
My Pretender: Desmerelda the Vampire Queen
The Army Graph
Most of those troops were Wolves

The Home Guard
Vampire Counts: Decent Mages, Great Harassers
This province will be down to 5K population in few turns from now.
Dominion Graph
Forts Graph: How I managed to eventually catch up in research.

Gem Income Graph
My leftover gems
Ghouls: The Ultimate Castle Defense
The Hall of Fame
Bifrons: The ultimate rapid attack unit.
Gaap: Rapid Attack unit Two

Nycator also arrived, but didn't survive a run -in with several skeleton raising Sauromancers as I hadn't yet made him a regen ring.
The Income Graph: Well of Misery's effect is clearly visible here.
Magical Resources Left after Two Dispels
The Overall Research Graph

My Overall Research at the end.

And finally, the strategy that won me the game.
Spies
More Spies
Even More Spies

And an overview of the final strategic situation:
Overview

As a final word, give Argitoth a break people. he plays very well, and runs several hosted games without any major problems.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few. He got some of my vampire counts before I gave them amulets of antimagic.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

great AAR, both of you! I love stuff like this. You'll get him next time, Argitoth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mark

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What is AAR?


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm really not up for another 8 hour game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Edit: OMG!!! I THINK I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MY PRETENDER!!! What if he died because the dominion was too high in the province he was attacking? THAT MIGHT BE IT!

Edit: Thanks, mjlaufgr!

[ February 09, 2004, 04:50: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

After Action Report.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did he have a never healing wound? If so, then that could be it.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Zen, I think you misunderstood what Argitoth was saying.

He said, he had his assasins scripted to retreat after the first cast as a precaution to being discovered not as part of the assasination attempt. Thats the reason why he had them scripted to retreat. Im unclear as to his complaint about the retreating on assasinations attempts. Ive never tried to script it, maybe his units attempted to retreat but since they can't they just stood there?

Obviously this is an instance of being "too clever for your own good". So what exactly happened? Did they just stand around and die? Did they rout off the map and auto die like mercs?

I can see where he is coming from. Since units CAN'T actually retreat from a battle, successfully or otherwise in an assasination attempt one would think that such an order would be disregarded. It appears as though they had some other unforseen reaction to retreating on an assasination attempt which I am curious to hear about ;p

On the other hand, im not sure this would have totally defeated his strategy, he could have simply gone into micro mode and adjusted his scripts whenever he attempted to assasinate. If they were active set them to attack. If they are passive set them to attack and retreat.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Lost an Eye, Weakened, Crippled, Feeble Minded.

I don't think it would matter if he had a never-healing would because my pretender got it once before, but overtime healed himself.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

I don't think so. You can't retreat from an assassination. So in effect you have to when you try to "assasinate" someone place the command on the global screen. So while you can and probably should use "retreat" for patrolling forces to get you into position. As soon as you are in a province that you want to assassinate and give the command, you can't retreat from your assasination attempt so you would change the script.

It's a choice of either one way or the other. You can either take the chance of assassinating first but being discovered by patrollers and more than likely killed, or being discovered by patrollers first and escaping before you can do your assassination attempt.

If I was in such a position and I gave the Assassination command, I'd switch my script away from Retreat because you are not allowed to retreat from a assassination either initiated by you or another player.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

I agree with you. I'd do the same thing. Im just wondering what exactly happens IF you try to retreat in an assasination attempt. Do you flee the battle and auto die ala mercs? Do you just stand around doing nothing? If thats the case, he probably didn't expect that to happen. He expected them to disregard an impossible order and fight on however. It wasn't the end of the world for his assasinations he just had to micro it out, but apparently he didn't want to do that ;p

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Retreat from assassination is 100% fatal. The unit will be 'retreated', and then killed (offscreen). That's the way the game is coded. I saw this happen (once) to one of my preaching priests in a SP game.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Routed, but didn't die like mercs.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Three assassination attempts per turn WOULD be very helpful, but after I spent 10 gems for the skull staff for each assassin, I kinda just said, "Bleh, nevermind".

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

You 'retreat' and you die from the attempt. So in effect you *could* program an assassination in Argitoth's case to be Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Retreat.

And if you kill them before you retreat, you win. If you don't you die.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember now, my assassins retreated multiple times after being found since I had a province for them to retreat into, but during assassinations, the game wasn't coded for retreating into home provinces, so my assassins just died.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Actually, microing the assassins to do that won't work: What if they assassinate somebody, and are discovered on the same turn? Then they'll perform their assassination properly, since they have the right orders, but then try to "assassinate" an entire army.....and be killed.

It's a no-win situation, unless you're using assassins that can cast returning, in which case you can script them for "Disintegrate, Returning", in which case they'll always fire a disintegrate, then vanish.

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh... heh... then everytime I assassinated someone, my assassin would automatically end up in my home province and I'd have to sneak ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL... etc etc.... the way back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Nice AAR...I like pictures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Though I'd recommend reading, or at least skimming this guide so that your pictures are sharp and crisp and maybe even smaller next time!

One of these days I'm going to try a multiplayer game...they sound like so much fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Debate and Duel (D&D)
 

Life is tough. Then you die. Or you can simply die sooner and avoid all the unpleasant living. heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif