Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

On behalf of the Anxious Molochs For World Destruction (AMFWD), a gathering of Molochs who have suffered from the antics of Whimpy Imps Incorporated (WII), we bring you the following infomercial:

If ever any pretender seemed designed to be a Super Combatant, surely it is the Moloch. With flying, high attack, defense, protection, strength, and decent (but not super-high) hitpoints, the Moloch seems ideal for sending into the fray against province defense or even small armies (in SP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ), yes the Moloch is surely "a powerful and mighty warrior, and imps will come to his aid in battle, and he will surely shatter the world unless"...

....His imps are killed making him flee, which means that, for all practical purposes, the imps are a liability. At 25 point cost over the Prince of Darkness, who has most of the strengths of the Moloch, most of the same weaknesses (save this one), equivalent magic level and dominion, and a cheaper path cost, the Moloch just does not cut it. (Exception: The cheapest fire 9 blessing you can get, but that just does not seem to fit the Moloch's theme)

And that is a crying shame. The idea of a Moloch with a retinue of imps going into battle without having to bring along slow-moving infantry fodder seems so very nice - it surely beats that of a Moloch who flees as soon as some whimpy imps get wiped out, especially considering that the Moloch has no problems scraping up some new imps for the NEXT battle. This suggests a very nice solution, really:

The AMFWD, having studied the auguries in the entrails of many thousands of imps, have reached the following recommendation:

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• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Increase the Moloch's cost from 75 to 90 points</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Give the Moloch, in addition to his starting retinue, a permanent "Lifelong Protection" effect</font>

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With the lifelong protection in effect, a few imps will be generated every single turn (VERY nicely fitting the Moloch's description), thus preventing the Moloch from every fleeing because of troops deserting him. (Which will of course create the "Overconfident Moloch" or "Deathwish" problem, but that is much more desirable than the current "Whimpy Moloch" problem)

The AMFWD sees an additional benefit in that more members of WII will be killed in the process.

EDIT: Several other suggestions from this thread
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• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make the Moloch immortal ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ) and increase his cost from 75 to 125</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As a general rule, ignore units auto-summoned for purposes of determining routing</font>

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[ March 15, 2004, 12:34: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

I agree... ORRR you can make it somehow so autosummons like imps for Moloch or snakes for the Serpent King don't count toward moral/fleeing.

They shouldn't actually...

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

Actually, I think it would be nice if those pretenders who have auto-summon for battle could have the option to turn it off. Or they don't rout even after those units are all killed. Afterall, the auto-summon is supposed to be a benefit, rather than a liability. The routing when all the auto-summon units are slayed is more a quirk of the combat AI than a realistic simulation.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

Very amusingly written http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For what its worth, the Moloch still makes a fine combattant in support of an army, but you're right, you can't use him on his own.

I'm not sure your proposed solution would work - it depends on the sequence of events in combat. If the rout check takes place before new creature generation, then the Moloch would still rout whenever all his Imps had been killed.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

You can put a "slave collar" on him. The disadvantage is that then he will never flee.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, but if what I wanted was fire support, there are both those that are cheaper and better amongst the pretenders, unless it is a flying support mage I need or I need an exceptionally high fire level to start with, which I likely will not, as I am probably going to invest considerably in air magic as well, since a support mage without precision is like a giraffe on rollerblades.

Now, if the Moloch had both the early game power that would seem intended AND the fire support utility later on, then it would, indeed, be a worthy pretender.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am pretty sure it will work. I tried something like it on a Demonbred by mistake.

...He was happily flying around with 35 devils and a truckload of magic items, including lifelong protection (for style!), when he inadvertently blundered into a very big army of some 300+ units including a pretender great mother and her 25 varied commander friends. My entire army was wiped out despite retreat possibilities, and though I cannot swear to it, it did look as if the Demonbred survived three rounds after the destruction of the Last devil, with new imps appearing at his side, while he happily bLasted away at point blank range with his magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now, I may be mistaken, if some devil was tucked away in a corner of the battlefield amongst the 100+ surviving enemies where I did not notice it, but I think it would work.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, by investing in blood I can put a cursed slave collar on my pretender [the inherent logic or lack of same of enslaving one's own mind to oneself is amusing to contemplate] or forge my own cursed lifelong protection by letting the Moloch make a deal with ANOTHER devil, probably some lower ranking flunky in the heirarchy of hell, who is unworthy of licking the Moloch's feet, to supply imps. There are any number of ways I can get around the issue after some 10 rounds or so....

...Which does not change the silliness of the situation one iota, namely that the one nasty pretender that screams Super Combatant, even in its job description, is useless as such in the early game, and expensive for its abilities to boot when you consider its extensive vulnerabilities.

Ah, well, I am incredibly biased on this - it is just so frustrating to bypass the Moloch for the Prince of Death or the Golden Naga every single time, based on projected impact, price, and utility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

Seems pretty obviously to be an AI bug that would be good to change, and I'd second the request, even though there are workarounds.

The one that comes to mind first, is give the Moloch some other troops. I assume is he has another squad that isn't dead, that he won't rout - no?

PvK

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

A simple fix would be to give such creature generating leaders 50 morale when they enter a battle alone. This is effectively what happens for leaders that don't generate troops.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

I always gave Cthuzul the demonbred assassin a lifelong protection and he never appeared to be remotely fazed by having all his imps wiped out. Perhaps assassination attempts are different ?

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That, or a "with your shield or on it" checkbox that has been proposed, that disables the auto-flee on loss of all troops for marked leaders. This would solve a lot of other things as well.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most likely. I recall one of the turn-tip was "You cannot retreat from assasination attempts" or something to that effect. This seemed to mean that you, on the receiving end of such attempts, cannot retreat. However, it seems reasonable that the same holds true for the assassin too.

I supposes it is some sort of No-Retreat oerride switch, used in perhaps Death Match too.

-Gateway103

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That, or a "with your shield or on it" checkbox that has been proposed, that disables the auto-flee on loss of all troops for marked leaders. This would solve a lot of other things as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Changing game mechanics and user interface is never simple.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There already is an exception in the code for when an army of commanders only attacks however, which could possibly be used to modify the retreat rules to take into account automatic commander bodyguards.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

True. For example by giving leaders 50 morale in such circumstances...

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, but if you need to drag other (slow, landbound) troops around to prevent him from fleeing in the early game, even if only few in number, you are giving up the strengths of the Moloch (flying, designed to be a Super Combatant) for what is essentially an army support role - and there are much better pretenders for that, even flying ones in the Virtue, the Prince of Darkness, a Red Dragon, and, arguably, the Phoenix.

There are lots of workarounds, but they all seem to work against either the theme or the relatively high price for the Moloch, considering its vulnerabilities.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Awe and Fear wouldn't work...

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Awe and Fear wouldn't work... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A morale of 30 already means the the unit is unbreakable, so they shouldn't be necessarily affected by these things.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

Agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Ebbesen on this.
Please change the soon to be mightier Moloch.


PS(The mighty Peter Ebbesen leaves the EUII forums? What happened? Is this a short forray into other realms, or a more permanent visit?)

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

Hi,

There's another option that involves modding. Make the Moloch immortal. I piggybacked some changes onto the Healing Pretender mod. I made several of the pretenders (mostly the undead ones, like the Carrion Dragon) immortal. I also made some pretenders regenerate, little tweaks like that. One of the ones I changed was the Moloch. I haven't had him rout yet.

IMO his paths are way too expensive as he is, so this balances it out some.

Just a thought,
V'ger gone

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Immortal Moloch! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Serious SC-pretender dominance.

Immortal creatures do not retreat when fighting in friendly dominion.

[ February 10, 2004, 07:46: Message edited by: Morag ]

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An immortal Moloch might even beat the Vampire queen as immortal SC of choice, and she is already a very, very, scary SC once she gets a bit of body armour.

An immortal Moloch should probably have his cost increased from 75 to 125 or so.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Shh. I am here incognito. Notice how my crown of flames and my shroud of darkness have receded into the shadows whence they came? No dragons herald my coming, nor is there a wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I just enjoy a good fantasy wargame with high complexity due to its openended nature as much as the next guy. I will probably be making a few suggestions for changes and chime in with a few devastating remarks every few months, but that is probably going to be the limit of my involvement in these forums. While well moderated and with a core of very helpful posters, an inordinate number of Posts are of the "hey, I'm a NOOB and you owe me answers to questions that I could discover for myself in five minutes" or the "which XYZ is best". Additionally, the reverse post order and (apparent) lack of a strong user CP for active thread handling would drive me nuts, were I not mad as a hatter already... Ah, inherent benefits, how we come to love them.

As is, I find Dominions II a very nice game, and will no doubt play it on and off for a few years, but for MP, I still prefer EU2 live against 10-12 other players any day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That probably can't be helped in a game that get's it's sales by word of mouth. Newcomers will trickle in a few at a time, and most will have the same questions. In the EU forums you have entire sections that handle newcomers, and other sections where pro's can argue amongst them without too much interference. But as to finding answers within five minutes....

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The most infuriatiung thing about this forum! And even though the search function works fairly well, the reverse post order makes an easy search into a chore -especially if you're a newcomer and and probably used to other forum layouts and user CP's.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right now, this game got me with a vengeance. Same as EU had a few months ago. But I'm a game jumper. I'll return to EU or Victoria in a while, stay with it for a time, then jump back to another game. Quality games like this or EU will have my loyalty for a long time, though my limited time and many interests will constantly try to divert me...

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

I'll rebump with a global request.

Autosummons is broken in at least one other respect as well: Autosummoned creatures will often make stealthy commanders (e.g. ghost kind) lose their stealth ability when a autosummoned creature arrives, EVEN IF that summoned creature is itself stealthy (e.g. ghosts, harpies, etc.).

I think the way autosummons works could be rehashed, fixing both the routing problem and the stealth-loss problem.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

I'll be even harsher. Remove all autosummons. If you want units accompaning a commander they could be worked into the unit as "weapons", eg the "Owl" weapon. If this not satisfactory then give the commander the ability "Summon allies". This way we get control over where and when the units arrive.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

Wauthan are you talking about battlefield autosummons or dominion related autosummons? Since the two previous Posts deal with one of the above each, it is not entirely clear what you are talking about.

[ March 15, 2004, 17:21: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

I think he's talking about both, actually. Strategic autosummons appear to disrupt hidden commanders, while tactical autosummons turn a commander into a consummate coward.

The simple solution is just to fix all of these issues, though.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fixing all issues will certianly solve all problems.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh Goody! And you fine folks will have it all ready for a patch 2.09 release by the end of the week, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fixing all issues will certianly solve all problems. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Incorrect. Fixing issues always introduces new problems. The only thing you can be sure of, when you have fixed n bugs (n >= 1) is that you have introduced at least one new bug. Likewise, fixing n balance issues always introduces at least one new balance issue. At least it often feels like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

That does not mean that I would not like to see the Moloch rescued from the Whimpy Imps Inc., of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

Would 50 morale help? I thought routing when all non-commanders were dead was automatic and didn't require a morale check.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

I played pangea with a moloch a while ago and the imps were very usefull as free fodder in the inital battles. Dominion related autosummoned imps would be less usefull as early fodder but probably better overall - since they wont disrupt the non-stealthy moloch.

50 morale would solve the reatreat problem, but would probably kill him off every time he tries to retreat, like after 50 battle turns.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

I'm sorry Johan Osterman. I was pretty unclear in my Last post. The curse of jumping into a thread without reading all the Posts previous first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The units that have battlefield summons where the ones that I felt would benefit from a "weapon unit", like the Titans Owl. The unit is so closely linked to its summoned ally that one could argue that if one fall then both go. The Moloch could have a small group of imps circling him in his graphics and be granted a "Imp horde" weapon.

The dominion related summons are the ones I felt could benefit from a "summon ally" ability. It's not what you intended perhaps as there's a difference between a passive and active gain of a free unit.

A silly idea might be an Allies Available counter ticking that lets you summon more than one unit at the time, up to dominion score, as long as there is units available on that counter. It becomes a choice of expanding fast in early game or having "instant horde" in the late game. But by now I'm sure you guys are sick of wishes, demands and whines for extra options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I reckon it's a lot like journalism. As long as one churns out somewhat rewritten newstelegrams noone gives a rats *** even if you misspelled everyones names, where it happened or if it was three days ago. But write one good article and people complain like there's no tomorrow. Everyone wants a peice of a masterpiece so to speak.

Re: Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.
 

As the Moloch is still hamstrung by imps in 2.08, a *bump* is in order..

SAVE THE MOLOCH FROM WHIMPY IMPS INC.! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif