Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

When you compare the stats of the Jotun Gode to the Jotun Jarl, for 70g more you seem to get:

+1 holy
mountain survival
+1 combat movement
-1 strength
half the leadership of the Jarl.

The rest of the stats balance out, and the added protection from better armor is accounted for by the difference in resource costs.

Hardly seems like the Gode's extras are worth 70g.

Comments?

[ February 05, 2004, 08:15: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

+1 holy = 1/2 upkeep
Most holy units have 2 times higher price to reflect/compensate this.

So the difference is 2 times higher as well.

Holy 3 gets you "sermon of courage",
lets you get a prophet with holy 4, too.

Both is invaluable - try playing a nation with holy 2 priests only.


cheers


edited: senseless posting

[ February 05, 2004, 08:37: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

The Jarl is already holy. "+1" refers to the difference between them.

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're thinking about "Sacred". Sacred units have 1/2 upkeep. Holy is a simply the priest level, and doesn't affect upkeep. Both the Gode and Jarl are already sacred.

Basically, the Gode's $70 extra comes from his increased priestly specialty. If you don't feel the $70 added cost for an extra priest level is worth it, just build Jarls. Godes are a more specialized unit, and specialty units tend to have a cost above that of what you might consider to be their actual value added, because otherwise, you'd only produce those.

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You mean such as R'lyeh? I do it all the time.

You can also summon something with Holy-3 such as the Harbinger.

Sermon of Courage isn't worth 70g, IMO. And paying 70g for *every* Gode just to make *one* a prophet is hardly a good answer.

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A better answer, thanks. Looking at other nations, it seems that the diff between H2 and H3 is valued at 50g. That would put mountain survival at 20g (pricey), and you just get screwed out of 1 strength and 25 leadership. Because of all this, I would think the Gode would more fairly be valued at, say, 180.

Comments?

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're thinking about "Sacred". Sacred units have 1/2 upkeep. Holy is a simply the priest level, and doesn't affect upkeep. Both the Gode and Jarl are already sacred.

Basically, the Gode's $70 extra comes from his increased priestly specialty. If you don't feel the $70 added cost for an extra priest level is worth it, just build Jarls. Godes are a more specialized unit, and specialty units tend to have a cost above that of what you might consider to be their actual value added, because otherwise, you'd only produce those. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think he meant that since both are sacred, both have costs that are higher than non sacred units with the same stats, and an increase in stats is more expensive than for non-sacred units. Since in this case the increase is holy+1, which only happens to sacred units, it costs the same for everybody anyway...

I'd also argue that a physically strong unit (like a giant) should pay more than usual for additional abilities than a weak non armored human. Yes, they already paid for that strength, but strength (and durability) on your priest opens up new possibilities, like casting from (near) the frontlines.

And to answer someone else, holy 3 (and sermon of courage) is a quite a valuable tool. Sure, you can do without, but when I play regular Ulm for example, I miss it : you have to put a little more troops on the line in long fights, or see your troops flee from a battle they would have won http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It also open up holy 4 for your prophet, with Divine Blessing and Fanaticism, and even one commander with those can make a lot of difference. It should be expensive.

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You mean such as R'lyeh? I do it all the time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*snicker*

I'm guessing you don't play a lot of R'lyeh, then, because they have perfectly fine, if horribly expense, Holy-3 priests. Did you mean, oh, say, Ulm, or Man?

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Arryn:

Quote:

Originally posted by Arralen: [qb]try playing a nation with holy 2 priests only.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm guessing you don't play a lot of R'lyeh, then, because they have perfectly fine, if horribly expense, Holy-3 priests. Did you mean, oh, say, Ulm, or Man? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Urk, how embarrasing. Yes, I do play a lot of R'lyeh. I just had a major brain cramp and completely forgot about the 150g Starspawn priest. (I tend to only use them only in the gate, and use 50g land priests for regular duties.)

Since my R'lyeh strategies tend to involve using lots of summoned critters (void, trolls, angels, etc.) with great morale, and R'lyeh's own units lack sacreds, I don't have much call for Blessings, much less Courage.

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, and if you're using units like Shambler Thralls or Lobo Guards....courage, schmourage. Aren't mindless, unbreakable cannon fodder units great?

And how *DO* you use the land priests to build your temples underwater? That's certainly an important thing to have, since Underwater provinces often border many land provinces, and are therefore potentially attacked by the dominions of those land provinces....and can attack them. Plus, being underwater means they're less likely to be razed. Do you actually go through the trouble of forging a waterbreathing thing to use the land priests underwater?

[ February 06, 2004, 01:26: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep. I don't use the lobos, but the shamblers are handy. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Quite simple. I don't build temples underwater. I tend to expand on to land pretty quickly. I send one SS priest to build an initial land temple, and from then on I make land priests for temple-raising or preaching. Another tactic is to make a lab on land, summon a holy-endowed critter such as a Harbinger or Angel, and let them do what is necessary for the sacred cause. I build temples to push dominion, and I generally don't need to push dom at sea. The temples are most effective for my purposes right up against my enemies, and they're almost all land-based, and usually inland.

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Angels and Harbingers are a good way along the research tree, by the time you get them you probably don't need them as much. One way or another, by that time, you probably have unbreakable summons/ high morale units / standard bearers / overwhelming numbers...

Re: Jotun Gode overpriced?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All true. Further back in this thread, though, the discussion of needing priests for such things as blessings was discussed. I was stating that using R'lyeh, I use summons (rather than bought priests) for that purpose. The Arch Angel (yes, it's advanced spell tech, and pricey I'll admit) does have the highly redeeming (pun intended) qualities of being H4 (Divine Bless, such a lovely spell), flying move 3, F3 (Fires from Afar caster), and sundry other sweet aspects. By the time I can cast the spell I usually have enough gem income to cast it every 2-3 turns. I typically have few better uses for the astral gems than summoning angels.

Oh, and yes, I so very much enjoy seeing packs of avenging angels flitting across the map, ignoring terrain and spreading the gospel -- by the sword and flame if need be!

Some (many) things that can be done in this game may not be "efficient", but they are so gratifying, in that visceral "take that!" sort of way. Bowling over your foes with cheap hordes of (insert favorite troop here) is droll (not to mention a carryover from RTS games). It's so much more elegant to bludgeon them instead with powerful, arcane critters, or with nigh-impervious SCs rampaging deep behind enemy lines (I have a 5-star Vastness in one game that is a joy to behold).