Which pretender design is best...?
 

For the Orania War MP game over on DominionsX...

I'm Tien Chi.

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

You'd have to state what theme you are using and what effects you are going for.

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

You should try and break that habit. In ANY question, there is never a "best". There is only pros and cons.

[ February 10, 2004, 20:29: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

As the options indicate... Spring and Autumn is definitely my intention at the moment. The terrain around tien chi in the scenario won't really support a high resource strat.

If someone else has a different theory, I'd be eager to hear it.

I was focusing on paths in my response, because the scale settings for S+A are pretty automatic...

T1 (required)
L3
M1+ (required)

I prefer growth over productivity, since you can overtax and take climate for more nation points (if needed) without supply hell, but that's just me...

I did give an example of how the points might be spent, but I didn't want to constrain the choices prematurely, since I'm hoping someone has a clever suggestion.


Rabe the Probable Solstice Avoider

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, Gandalf....but I am soliciting opinions, not ex cathedra level Bulls. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I gave a context and asked for a preference, with footnotes, if needed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Do I seem chronically epistemically simplistic, or was I just using casual idiom? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif


Rabe the Dogmatic Pretender? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ February 10, 2004, 20:36: Message edited by: rabelais ]

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would think that if you feel constrained by resources, you'd want all of it that you can get, hence taking Productivity over Growth. Perhaps I'm overlooking something?

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would think that if you feel constrained by resources, you'd want all of it that you can get, hence taking Productivity over Growth. Perhaps I'm overlooking something? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both is definitely preferable, (some of the choices in the poll are nearly pure scales) but given the growth income (and accumulative) advantages, it seems more critical long term.

Again if you have an alternate theory/plan, with particular scale settings, I'm very interested in hearing about it before I submit my pretender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Rabe the Nata Newbie

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

Well if you are going to go S&A I'd stay away from Bless Effects as a mentality. S&A is very limited in it's use of it's sacreds and your armies will not be primarily comprised of them, neither can they sustain themselves against SC's by a blessing alone.

T1
L3
M1

And I'd pick Productivity over Growth, because no matter how much you don't want to use the standard troops of TC, you will be forced to, in order to keep your elite units free of attrition. Early game I'd suspect you are going to be relying heavily on Flaming Arrows regardless, so you need to be able to get as many bowman as you can.

LoF is my standard for S&A as I don't like the automatic Astral of the Jade Emperor which forces you to invest considerable points into him in order to become Astral King.

TC in it's current form (With Celestial Masters being migets on the Mind Duel survivability food chain) it will be extremely difficult for you to wage any wars if you are near any astrally powerful nations as you have to null the best aspect of your theme (the CM's). Hopefully one of your starting provinces is lizards.

I don't envy you that game. While I love S&A, it is far from competitive. Better break out the Courtesans and send them to anyone near Pythium, Rlyeh, or Arco soften up diplomacy so you don't have to work uphill, both ways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree that initially bowmen will be critical, but as a practical matter, starting with 5 clustered provs, it didn't seem to increase output so enormously as to be worth the trouble.

I was looking at the water blessing since all the mages are sacred, and earth, because it makes for a better SC, I don't otherwise really get the path... and reinvig isn't a bad thing with the high enc of TC's mages. But I agree the +4 defense is not as attractive as usual.

I do have a pure scale option in the poll, but S+A stardard units beg for a radical strategy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

And I understand that S+A is a risky theme, just seems like a nearly optimal place to try it, since some expansion has already been done for you...

Pity Courtesans can't assasinate, you'd think they'd be able to get between the target and bodyguards pretty easily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks for your continued thoughts,


Rabe the Mandarin-Elect

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

All your mages can cast quickness already. (They all start with 1 Water).

Earth of at least 4 (if you are looking for a Blessing) would work well. Though depending on your points.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well all your opponents are going to start with 5 provinces too, right? What's going to stop them from building troops? You can't rely early game on having an adequate enough research or gem income to counter masses of troops (Imagine say, Man with Longbows).

Growth doesn't impact the early game much at all, and if you can't survive the early game, the late game doesn't matter especially if you have 17 other conflicting dominions. But that is my personal stance. Since you have access to Nature Mages, you don't have to, in reality, worry about not being able to make winebags/cauldrons if you need supply.

[ February 10, 2004, 21:17: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True. The bless effect isn't cumulative with the spell?

Rabe the Slowed-way-down....

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

I believe it is, but it won't let you cast 3 spells a round (which would fatigue them *even faster*). And since when do your mages need +4 Defense?

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

I'd appreciate it if all you fine folks voting "other", would post some specifics on your unique choice.


Thanks,

Rabe the Sadly Unenlightened

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I don't think it is. My first to start MP (but, it seems, not necessarily first to end) is/was with TC S&A and I was really considering the water9 blessing. But when testing it, I couldn't see it stacking with the spell no matter how hard I tried/hoped. Of course, my testing was not extensive, so I might have erred. Anyway, was considering it mostly for demon summons (just imagine all those wheels of fire), but deemed it not worth of the points.

I'm no vet, but I must echo Zen in the prod-growth dispute. Of course it feels good to know that your people are healthy and breed like rabbits, but to my limited experience, it just doesn't cut it. When suffered the prod-zeroing-2nd-turn bug, it really hurt. With growth you just can't build anything.

National summons are great, but apart from the dispossessed spirits (gotta love 'em, low-def/mr nations using elite troops beware) you can't mass-summon them. Hum, just a thought, I'm finding it hard to find a good commander for my troops, since nowadays keep having them in all sorts (mundane/magic/undead). Anyone found a good solution, or am I forced to keep a different commander for every flavor?

(Oh yeah, Last of the two euro-cents. With turmoil, strong dominion. Very strong. You are anyway surrounded by all those boring people who take order/misfortune, and their bad-luck dominion in your lands _hurts_. Fortunately those barbarian hordes and random villains attack usually in foreign dominion provinces, which are occupied by your guarding armies or enemy's advancing ones. Not sure how the mechanics work, but that's my experience anyway)

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You just use a different commander. Though you can put them all under a CM if he has the right picks and some magic items.

S&A I'd consider making a Whip of Command/Scepter of Authority for a noble (or indy commander) at least once. For Dispossesed spirits, you have easy access to Revive King and for magicals, a CM works just fine.

S&A is actually fun in that aspect, since there is no one single unit, outside of the immortals, that can hold your masses of almost totally useless troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Aye, CM is the only one I've come up with before, was fishing for someone else because it feels such a waste to use the most expensive mage just to haul troops around. Well, at least with right picks you can use him to cast frost bolt, fire flies, raise skeleton, resist magic, charge body, geyser, acid spells and many others, with just one unit in a single battle. Wipee... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Versatility is good, but hey, some restraint.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">HEY, they're not useless, just... doing their best to give their pretender a good challenge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif As even mr Cruise learns in the Last Samurai, there is no honour in a battle you beforehand know you're going to win. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Teaches you proper attitude, does indeed.

Besides, the one immortal who actually can haul a sizeable contignent of those troops manages to disease half of your army if something goes awry with the battle orders...

Gotta love S&A, but don't know how much it helps when pitted against other nations.

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

I prefer the Nataraja with 3 earth only.

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

If I didn't care about Bless Effects I'd probably say the same. As you can Summon Earthpower up to cast whatever you'd like, or Earth Boots to cast what ritual you'd like.

What I do know however, is that CM's and most S&A mages fatigue quickly even under a Magic 1 enviroment.

Though I tend to script my casters with Quickness, Eagle Eye, Acid Rain and other such spells.

Without easy communion Access you will run into situations where your mages will only get a few casts, and intrinsic reinvigoration can help.

If you have the points and the thought of a Natty appeals to you, I'd definitely go Earth at least 3. If you have some extra, putting an additional Earth on him isn't going to hurt and it will allow your mages to recover from sleeping faster to cast another spell.

Re: Which pretender design is best...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It costs 32 points more and therefore hurts my dominion. No extra points for me.