early game expansion tactics
 

based on my limited PBEM experience to date I don't seem to be expanding fast enough to be competitive.

I'm using pretender to lead my main army but after taking each province this means they're sitting idle for a turn while I search for hidden magic sites http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

is this how most people play? I suppose I could hire a commander for my army and use my pretender purely for sniffing out magic sites, but this seems to be a waste of a powerful combat advantage.

any suggestions will be appreciated.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

That is a loaded question Andy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

I can only say a few things that will help you with the advise you may soon be recieving.

Post your Pretender and Paths.
Post your Nation/Theme.
Post your Scales.
Post your Dominion/Castle.
Post your Research goals.

All of these impact greatly your early expansion with the choices you make for it both in magic and production.

You Go GoneGoldGirl!

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

really?

I'd have thought basic expansion techniques were universal. my first mistake I guess.

Pretender and Paths: Great Mother, 4xNature 4xEarth
Nation/Theme : Pangaea (no theme)
Scales: +1 Fortune
Dominion/Castle: Castle
Research goals: none specific, obviously I need Nature & Earth-friendly schools though.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

Generically speaking, the leader of your first army shouldn't be stopping to search until you've at least expanded your borders a bit. This is really a decision you want to make when you're creating the pretender - what is their role? If it's combat, plan on searching other ways (or not at all) at least for a while.

~Aldin

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unless of course your research strategy includes a specific gem income. Important for nations that utilize national summons or speedresearch conjuration/enchantment/construction for suppliments to their national army types.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

Well depending on how comfortable you are with sending your Great Mother into combat and how quickly you intend to research Conjuration/Construction, you are more than likely in a rough spot.

Your scales don't produce an exceptional amount of gold, so you are going to be limited on some of your choices. I have a personal distaste for the satyr hoplites, as they are slow and in your current production state, hard to produce. I much prefer Centaur Warriors, as they have a high survivability as well as mobility. Plus they have stealth to break enemy lines, cause unrest and wreak havok on economies.

What initial Indep strength are you fighting in?

Edit: With your nation and Pretender, I would use a Heirophant to lead your armies (if he's your prophet) or a Dryad (who is your prophet). Until your Earth Mother is equipped or has the spell capability to make her less prone to danger, she can search your land, while your armies take independants.

[ February 12, 2004, 01:08: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

I've been using my Great Mother as a combat leader - generally she casts a couple of spells then charges into the fray

currently playing with this setup in four PBEM games and all my solo endeavours - independants ranging from strength 3 to 6

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

To my mind your starting strategy really depends on how you're going to play the game - specifically whether you're going to be a physically or magically powerful nation. If you are going to need lots of gems sometimes it's ok to expand more slowly (like you are doing, searching each province as you conquer it). On the other hand if your main strength is going to be your recruited armies you probably want to give gem searching a back seat.

Early expansion does seem to be pretty important, so unless you have some definite goal for what you want to do with your gems, I would say focus on expansion.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

Set the independents higher. The AI does better against weak AIs, a smart player picking his battles can be better against strong ones.

Also try leaving out Ermor, Atlantis, Rlyeh, Abyssia, Caelum

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

I find that the use of excessive force is very useful in early expansion. Yes, you could probably take a province with, say, the army you have now....but that would involve a higher loss ratio. Squashing them with excessive force will minimize your losses from attrition, and will allow your army to keep on rolling longer. After all, anything worth doing is worth doing with excessive force.

As a rule of thumb, if there is any doubt in your mind over whether or not you can squash the puny rebels, you need more force.

[ February 12, 2004, 02:31: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

so what viable options are there for exploration/magic site discovery if I don't use my pretender?

I know there are spells that do the job, but they each seem to only cover one affinity which equates to a LOT of spells if I want to check every province in my empire.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Acashic Record, Conjuration level 5, requires Astral-3 to cast, will search the entire province and reveal all sites. Using this will require a good source of gem income, though, since it's 25 astrals per pop. If your nation has an astral gem source as part of its home province, you're well set. Otherwise, you can try the cheaper single-affinity search spells to try to expand your gem income, and then do the Acashic Record for a much more thorough sweep of anything left.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

Viable options? If you get a Pan with 3 Earth, 3 Nature that is about 95% effective as your pretender with 4 Earth, 4 Nature.

I know the initial urge to find every explored site is very hard to ignore, but it wastes (if you have a national priest who can do it nearly as well) your pretenders time while at the same time could give you little/no results.

You could even have a Pandemoniac casting bowl of blood for you, if you'd like as your Pan searches.

Expansion nets you the territories that you would search. Also, highly searched provinces tend to be juicy targets by opponents (I find it hard not to take provinces with 2+ sites, as soon as I see them).

A more appropriate question would be, what are you going to use your gems on? *and* How fast and how many of these gems do I need in X timeframe?

[ February 12, 2004, 03:18: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I want them all, and I want them now!

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

What are you going to use them for initially?

Earth to Alchemize for Money?
Nature to cast Mother Oak?
Nature to cast Gift of Health?
Forging Magic Items?
Earth to Summon Elementals?

It's very nearly as important to know where you are going with your Gem Income as to get it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For me how fast I need my gems and for what reason dictate how fast and how hard I search provinces. As most of the time I have to weigh my resources against research and expansion.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

I don't have a firm enough grasp on the range of spells available yet - my plan was to get the hang of the initial land-grab then get serious about spells.

maybe I need to rethink and pore over my spellbooks a little earlier.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

It is odd that nobody mentioned mercs. Grab mercs ASAP! Mercenaries on turn 2 can double your expansion rate (on some indy settings) and ultimately mean the difference between winning and losing.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

Well with your current setup, you only have 3 options.

Earth, Nature, and Blood.

Take a look at what is availiable and see what you want to go for. You start with a 5 Nature Gem Income.

How reliant are you going to be on your national armies? At what point are you going to have to suppliment your national gold based armies with some sort of magical/summons troops, SC's in order to dominate/survive?

What are the inherent strengths and weaknesses of your nation? What holes are in your armies that can be exploited by your enemies?

Those are questions you should look into as it can mold your nations path, research, expansion and gem use http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, doesn't this depend on a lot of factors, such as if any are available, cost of the available mercs, type of the available mercs (a single merc leader with no troops isn't going to be worth it, odds are, nor someone with cannon-fodder-grade troops that won't be good enough to help you take out that indy 7+ province next door with your possibly weak starting troops), player desire to recruit an expensive magical researcher, etc. You have to look at your situation, what you want to accomplish, and what's available to see if mercs are a good solution to getting there faster. Very often they are, but not always.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

Not to mention that 99% of the troops have an additional cost to Pangaea. I always consider mercs for Pan, but I never seem to get Obscuro or Dagon, the one that would really help Pan early http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

The problem with mercs is that, without the ability to actually look at what you're purchasing, the hiring can be a total crapshoot. Some of them are quite good....others have less than memorable names and less than memorable performance. Mercs tend to be a lot more useful in multiplayer than singleplayer as well: The AI tends to aggressively grab every merc in sight, whereas in multiplayer, many human players will likely neglect them. Some of them are neglected for good reason, being that they cost too much and aren't very good, but I've noticed that the prices on mercs can get really low if they've been unemployed for awhile. I've picked up fairly useful and decent ones like Terminus or Obscuro for the low, low price of $8. That's what I call a real steal.

Somebody ought to write a Complete Dom2 Guide to Mercs: who rules, and who drools.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool. This is the most useful tip I've seen in a while. Wish I'd thought of it myself ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Checking the indep strength is not its only use.

I'll never forget my first Dominions 1 demo game. One of the first independent provinces I conquered had a Harab Seraph wielding dual KotDs - and, guess what? my pretender picked one and my prophet the other. A bit later I encountered a Hoburg champion sporting a Lycanthropos amulet. And in the next battle I realized a Seraphine prophet with a KotD and a Lycanthropos amulet isn't really useful in a battle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Now I routinely probe Hoburg and Harab indeps (among a few others) with a cheap commander before committing promising leaders.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the lesson continues ...

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I get this right, you're asking about how to be more competitive in MP. IMO the easiest way to do this is to focus more on early expansion and wait with the site searching (which is unreliable anyway).

Playing standard Pangea, I would focus on Centaur Warriors. Throw in some cheap troops as arrow fodder, placed in front of the CWs on hold and attack (the indep archers will keep firing at the fodder throughout the battle). As Norfleet said, use excessive force to keep the expansion rolling. Additional armies produced in your capital can converge with your primary army when taking strong indies. CWs are gold rather than research heavy - consider this when choosing what provinces to take first.

Research Ench 3 for Ironskin before getting into battle with your Great Mother. Then start into construction - Reinvigoration items (Con 4), the charcol shield, luck items etc. In MP, try trading for these if you can't forge them yourself.

Final tip - use unoccupied commanders to attack the provinces you plan to conquer next. Have them in the back with retreat orders. Watching the battle replay will give you an exact account of the indep force.

Re: early game expansion tactics
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool. This is the most useful tip I've seen in a while. Wish I'd thought of it myself ...