Tartarian factory
 

This is a thing I wanted to try for a long time (as soon as I got my retail Version a few months ago and read the TG spell description) but I never found the time to test it until recently.

Pick Arcoscephale, a PoD with 5 in death, and buy a good magic dominion - I tested with Order+3, Prod+3, Growth+1, Magic+1, the 40-admin castle and a dominion of 5. Enough to give a 230ish starting econ and recruit all the hypaspists and hoplites you can.

Research what you need to fuel your expansion - for me it was Conj 1, Alt 3, Evoc 2, Constr 6, Enchant 3, Thaum 4. Then switch to Conjuration until level 9. I reached it in turn 31 (could have been as soon as 29 if I hadn't unnecessarily dispatched mages to fight an angry AI neighbor), and at that time I had a gem income of +13 death and +19 nature (as well as a mage who could use the latter for Gift of Reason). Forge a Skull Staff and Skullface, and have the PoD chain cast TG while 5-6 priestesses heal troops in the same province. Cast GoR on the Tartarian summons who come without leader status.

The result is truly insane and beats Ice Devil summoning by a long shot. Not to mention Arco's magic versatility makes it the perfect choice to equip your Titans, Cyclops, Monstra and whatnot.

Who needs a Nataraja when you can summon one of these beasts each turn so soon?

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Here is a quick breakdown for you, of the different Tartarians, this is an exerpt from the SCQR.

Unit Name Sz HP Prt Mor MR Enc Str Att Def Pre Mv Ldr Upk


Tartarian Titan x1 (Female) 6 170 5 30 18 0 22 15 15 11 3/14 Na 0
SA: Poor Amph, Cause Fear (+0), 100 CR, Und, 100 PR, NNE, Random Affliction(s)
Path: 3 Random (Same Path), 2 Random (Same Path)
Wpn: Enchanted Spear Amr: None

Tartarian Titan x1 (Male) 6 180 4 30 18 0 24 12 12 9 3/14 Na 0
SA: Cause Fear (+5), 100 CR, Und, 100 PR, NNE, Random Affliction(s)
Path: 3 Random (Same Path), 2 Random (Same Path), 2 Random (Same Path)
Wpn: Enchanted Sickle Amr: None

Tartarian Monstrum x1 6 310 6 30 18 0 27 13 11 9 3/15 Na 0
SA: Cause Fear (+5), 100 CR, Und, 100 PR, NNE, Flying, Random Affliction(s)
Path: 2 Random (Same Path), 2 Random (Same Path)
Wpn: Stinger, Claw Amr: None

Tartarian Spirit x1 6 150 7 30 18 0 25 13 4 7 3/8 Na 0
SA: Regen, Poor Amph, Cause Fear (+0), 100 CR, Und, 100 PR, NNE, Mtn Srvl, Random Affliction(s)
Path: 2 Random (Same Path), 3 Random (Same Path)
Wpn: Tartarian Chains x2

Tartarian Cyclops x1 6 182 9 30 18 0 26 12 11 6 3/12 Na 0
SA: Cause Fear (+5), 100 CR, Und, 100 PR, NNE, Random Affliction(s)
Path: 2 Random (Same Path), 3 Random (Same Path)
Wpn: Thunder Fist, Lightning Amr: None

Tartarian Monstra x1 6 220 8 30 18 0 21 14 7 11 3/7 Na 0
SA: Cause Fear (+0), 100 CR, Und, 100 PR, NNE, Swmp Srvl, Random Affliction(s)
Path: 3 Random (Same Path), 2 Random (Same Path), 1 Random (Same Path)
Wpn: Fist x2 Amr: None

Tartarian Cyclops x1 (v2) 6 236 18 30 18 0 26 12 17 5 3/11 Na 0
SA: Cause Fear (+5), 100 CR, Und, 100 PR, NNE, Random Affliction(s)
Path: 4 Random (Same Path)
Wpn: Enchanted Sword Amr: Weightless Scale, Enchanted Shield

Edit: Yes I know it's ugly, but the forums don't format well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 12, 2004, 04:59: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could you please support my thread with your new strategy?: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=74;t=001261

It's what I call Debate and Duel (D&D). You prove what you are saying by playing the game. This is perfect, please support it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why x1? Are they supposed to be unique? In my test I got up to 5 of the lightning Cyclops variety.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Maybe he simply means you get one at a time.

PvK

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Oh, BTW...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One of mine had 5 earth/2 astral, the others were 3/2/2.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Got 4, always earth/death.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Got 5, always air/earth.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I got one with 4 water/2 death, the others were 3/2/1.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Got 3, always 4 earth.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

It was x1, because it was in my SCQR. So when you cast the spell you get one of one type.

The Magical Paths are hard to define exactly. I've made probably 100 titans and those are the clearest definitions I could.

If you notice, I split it by what commonly happens as I can't break it down any other way which makes sense. If I had the time and could do 1000 Titan tests for each I could do %'s but you really think I need to do that?, I think this is enough for my contribution.

So 3, 2, 2, can be 5, 2 or 3, 2, 2, but it will never be 7, or 1, 4, 2. It's possible any one of the paths to join with another.

I've never had any one of the tartarians ever be exactly the same for each one (this is probably 10 per type at least, had a problem with the Monstra (Naga) as I had a bad run of not being able to summon alot of them).

If you'd like to do tests where you can conclusively say that one type is one part, I'll change my notation to reflect that.

[ February 12, 2004, 06:17: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Aside from being level 9, the spell is insane. My first casting, I got one with 2 astral 3 death 2 fire, who was a leader! Sometimes you don't need GOR, it seems. But 10 death gems for a 7-magic level god-class leader is probably a bug; the rest were normal units.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

There is about a 20% chance that any particular summoned titan will be a Commander as opposed to a Unit.

The afflictions are random. But feeblemind and mute are fairly common. Gift of Health can usually heal their afflictions in 2 or 3 turns.

The spell is appropriately Level 9. Even having a semi-afflicted Unit that has the kinds of statsitics (especially HP) that the Titans have for 10 Death Gems can turn your armies into superpowered, hard to kill units with a powerful cavalry.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, where the hell did I write I really think you need to do that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Just wanted to point out an interesting fact: that some of my summons (both Titans, Monstra) had varied skills, while some had not. Eg, all my 5 lightning Cyclops had exactly air 2/earth 3. If it's really 2?/3? like you suggest, the probability for such a draw is less than 1%.

Quote:

If you'd like to do tests where you can conclusively say that one type is one part, I'll change my notation to reflect that.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I'll play a few more turns tonight just to see if I get, eg, a lightning Cyclops with different magic skills, but I'm not really interested in doing more.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">2 Air, 3 Earth for Cyclops? I'd say it has a large % to be that but I am looking at one with 2 Fire, 3 Earth. I don't know if it's 1% but it's certainly possible that it's not always that based on 5 casts, perhaps. If I could conclusively say after GoRing all these Titans that they were any one type (Like the 4 Earth Cyclops, which all but 1 had it, the Last one had Fire) I would certainly put it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's fine by me.

[ February 12, 2004, 06:50: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Tartarian factory
 

you would have to find alot of death gem sites in mp to win, be lucky that is.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think if you enclose your table in "code" tags, you can get reasonable formatting. See below:</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> a b c
x 1 12 24
y 3 7 2</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tartarian Gate needs only 10 death gems. So, it's not impossible. But the same strategy will probably be more viable for C'tis.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

The strategy sounds fun. But are you sure it's practical? If you have a PoD with Death 6 or 7 and rush the research at Conjuration, you could have a "Ghost" factory (9 gems, 1 ghost for each level of death) at Level 6, or a "Bane Lord" (42 hp, not a bad unit for 10 gems) gernerator at Level 5.

But yes, 10 gems for the Tartarian Gate sounds very cheap to me. 15 or 20 gems seems to be a more reasonable price.

[ February 12, 2004, 17:08: Message edited by: ywl ]

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well sometimes you get feeble minded titans without any arms, thus you sometimes get next to useless units out of it. I guess that's why jaques went for Arco.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's fine by me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I was curious, so I made a map file with 100 of each Tartarian type in 7 different provinces, and looked at their magic in the 'nation overview' pane. Took me ~20 minutes.

Results:

type 771 (Tartarian Cyclops, lightning): 2 air + 3 earth - so I guess the fire Cyclops you saw was actually a Titan.

type 772 (Tartarian Cyclops, enchanted): 4 earth.

type 773 (Tartarian Spirit): 3 earth + 2 death.

type 774 (Tartarian Titan, female): 3 any + 2 any, can stack to give 5 in one path.

type 775 (Tartarian Titan, male): 3 any + 2 any + 2 any, can stack in any combination: 5/2, 4/3 or 7 are all possible.

type 776 (Tartarian Monstrum): 2 any + 2 any, can stack to give 4 in one path.

type 777 (Tartarian Monstra): 2 any + 2 any + 1 any + 1 any, can stack in any combination, including 6 in a single path.

I can send you the map file if you're interested.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tartarian Gate needs only 10 death gems. So, it's not impossible. But the same strategy will probably be more viable for C'tis. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Faery Queens are expensive to summon, and not nearly as effective as Priestesses. Gift of Health is expensive and can be dispelled, not to mention other nations who can compete with C'tis for it. And there's only one Chalice, and even if you manage to grab it, someone can wish it out of your hands.

Priestesses, OTOH, are readily available in numbers to Arco, and you need only a limited death gem income to chain-cast TG - 10/turn, or 8 with a summoning site, or even less if you alchemize your astrals. That's why I hardly see another nation beating Arco in that kind of race.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try it yourself, then tell us what you think. I tested in a rather competitive environment (Inland with max indeps + 9 impossible AIs), didn't neglect my military, my expansion, or even the other research areas - and still managed to start summoning, healing & equipping 1 Tartarian critter/turn shortly after turn 30.

Quote:

If you have a PoD with Death 6 or 7 and rush the research at Conjuration, you could have a "Ghost" factory (9 gems, 1 ghost for each level of death) at Level 6, or a "Bane Lord" (42 hp, not a bad unit for 10 gems) gernerator at Level 5.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And that's exactly what I did. But summoning Ghosts or Bane Lords doesn't prevent your other mages to research Conjuration 9, does it?

Quote:

But yes, 10 gems for the Tartarian Gate sounds very cheap to me. 15 or 20 gems seems to be a more reasonable price.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a reasonable price for other nations. The loophole really exists only for Arco.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No that is great by me. I'll adjust the SCQR to reflect it.

Thank you.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

It's a nice strategy. I'm on turn 45 right now, started summoning on turn 36. World Map with fixed starting locations, all AI's on impossible, indies at 9.
Right now it's a bit messy, fighting Jotun in the north, Caelum to the east, Abyssia south and west but. I was lucky to have some gold mines in my starting provinces and cheap 6/3 archers at the other castle.

Gem income is very low. I can't see how you could have researched everything you said, also searched the countryside for magic sites, created the items and got a mage that could cast gift of reason (how that btw) and all that by turn 31.

[ February 15, 2004, 21:53: Message edited by: Torvak ]

Re: Tartarian factory
 

I was thinking the same thing about turn 31...
Tried doing the math but even when I was hiring a mage every turn and non stop researching just conjuration it took almost 30 turns. Don't remember the exact amount.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well that's possible. You get to construction 4 very fast and can build a skull mentor for every researcher.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you have a death gem income good enough to build a skull mentor every turn, then you've done an awful lot of site searching.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">3 Castles and labs to recruit more mages. I also had a a Sage site. And I forged some lanterns after Const 6. No Mentors.

[Edit: 3 castles, including my starting one]

Quote:

also searched the countryside for magic sites, created the items and got a mage that could cast gift of reason (how that btw) and all that by turn 31.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He was GoR-capable at turn 31, but GoR came a bit later. Astrologer with a random in nature + Ring of Sorc -> Thistle Mace -> Moonvine Bracelet -> nature-4 for GoR.

[ February 16, 2004, 01:11: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Tartarian factory
 

I think the strategy is abusive and would like to see the exploit removed.

But I have the suspicion that the effects you saw was because of high research and large gem income, rather than specifically because of Tartarian Gate. It doesn't seem to be too much more powerful than some other strategies, if you could get to level 9 on Conjurations or Construction and have the right gem income.

Examples:
1) Tarrasque. 25 Nature a piece. In my test, most tartarian zombie needs GoR. So, the gem cost is about the same.
2) Juggernaut. 25 Astral. They're powerful tramplers, holy and can spread your dominion.
3) Heck, if you have GoR, you could even use it on Gargoyle. Use Vanheim and a Nature 3 pretender. Research for Enchantment 5 and high Construction (4 or 6). GoR the Gargoyle and pile items on them. They'll be quite decent combatants, though their basic MR is just 12.

Of course, most Tartarian summons are powerful magic Users. Your strategy still has an significant advantage over these three examples, even though it's harder to pull of.

What bug me more is actually seeing an whole army of dead gods running around. Does it make sense to have tens of imprisoned ancient gods available for summon? Personally, I'd rather see all of the Tartarian summons unique like the Demons, and the cost of the spell and chance of feeble-mind decreased to increase their power.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

I agree with Ywl's suggestion. Even though it takes a large amount of death to cast Tartarian Gate, it should not be any less limited than Demon Lords or Elemental King/Queens. Even with it limited you'd see players recasting their Tartarians every turn as they die. The Monstrum is particularly abusive, since he flies.

There are 7 Different types of Tartarians so the number fits nicely.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe I didn't put it explicitely enough, but that's exactly what I wanted to demonstrate.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe I didn't put it explicitely enough, but that's exactly what I wanted to demonstrate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't say it's abusive or even an exploit. It probably balances Arco a bit. Right now i'm desperatly trying to survive fighting Jotun, Caelum and Abyssia at once. Even with casting a Tartarian every round it's hard enough.
In the game you describe with your high death and nature gem income you were incredibly lucky.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I searched for death and nature sites very aggressively, and I don't think +13 and +19 out of ~30 provinces is so incredibly lucky even with the default setting. I got +5 nature from Pangaea's capital BTW, +1 from mine, so actually it's only +13 from random sites. So that's less than .5 death and .5 nature per province from non-capital provinces. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it is. Assuming the chance for site is 50% and the number of nature or death gems for each site is 2. For a rough estimation:
30 * 0.5 * 1/8 * 2 ~= 4
1/8 because I assume that there are equal chance for each type of site (not true) and I haven't counted holy or unholy sites. But even if we increase the number to 1/4, it'd still only about 8. And you're talking Arco, who has no native access to nature or death. Search by spell will be slow.

And it's Conjuration 9, Construction 6 and Thaumaturgy 4 (low). This is a lot of research. As I said, with such research and gem, you could probably do equally well with Juggernaut, Tarrasque or even 9+ ghosts per turn. Also, since Tartarian summons are undeads, you could in theory counter them with "Holy Pyre" or "Control the Dead"

But still, all these cann't disprove the fact that 10 gems (or 30 with GoR) for 100+ hp, undead mage is too much of a good deal; the funny, if not ridiculous, sight of tens of dead gods in an army.

I have the suspicion that the same trick is equally abusable for C'tis, Man or Pan. These nations have the advantage of a high nature gem income, the major bottleneck of the production line. Faery Queen is expensive but it's just 40 gems, merely the price of two GoR. They're also powerful air mage and generate free sprites. I won't mind having one or two of them just lying around.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You may be right. The only other gem type I found in abundance was astral.

Quote:

Assuming the chance for site is 50% and the number of nature or death gems for each site is 2. For a rough estimation: 30 * 0.5 * 1/8 * 2 ~= 4 1/8 because I assume that there are equal chance for each type of site (not true) and I haven't counted holy or unholy sites.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are also non-death non-nature sites which give out death and nature gems - I think I found a death-producing holy site in that game (don't remember the name), as well as an unusual number of Lifeless Lakes, maybe 3, which also provide death gems.

I used 40% sites BTW, and if I understand the mechanics well it should give a 41.92% chance to get 1 site average /province, although in practice it seems I get more than that.

Quote:

But even if we increase the number to 1/4, it'd still only about 8. And you're talking Arco, who has no native access to nature or death. Search by spell will be slow.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arco has limited access to nature, and I had Priestesses search every province before I could use Haruspex. The PoD was mainly used to locate death sites before I had another death mage for Dark Knowledge, so that wasn't a problem either.

Quote:

And it's Conjuration 9, Construction 6 and Thaumaturgy 4 (low). This is a lot of research. As I said, with such research and gem, you could probably do equally well with Juggernaut, Tarrasque or even 9+ ghosts per turn.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I used Ghosts (although I summoned only 7/turn), my PoD did only that until I reached Conjuration 9. Juggernauts was a completely research area and not in the scope of this test, which was to demonstrate how Arco could abuse Tartarian Gate. And IMO neither Tarrasques nor Juggernauts come close to the strategic impact of a 2 air/3 earth Cyclops (my prime candidates for GoR) who can strike anywhere on the map with Cloud Trapeze.

Quote:

Also, since Tartarian summons are undeads, you could in theory counter them with "Holy Pyre" or "Control the Dead".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't say they're invulnerable, yet they're incredibly powerful when equipped by Mystics. And very versatile too, if you look at the male Titans. Their high MR can reach impressive levels, eg one of the aforementioned Cyclops with just an AM amulet and Iron Will gets 26, and you can still add to this total.

Quote:

But still, all these cann't disprove the fact that 10 gems (or 30 with GoR) for 100+ hp, undead mage is too much of a good deal; the funny, if not ridiculous, sight of tens of dead gods in an army. I have the suspicion that the same trick is equally abusable for C'tis, Man or Pan. These nations have the advantage of a high nature gem income, the major bottleneck of the production line. Faery Queen is expensive but it's just 40 gems, merely the price of two GoR. They're also powerful air mage and generate free sprites. I won't mind having one or two of them just lying around.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've tried with standard C'tis but the lack of effective and reliable healing made it much harder.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, I thought a site frequency of 50% meant that
for each of the 4 site slots per province there would be a 50% chance it would be filled? So for 30 provinces you would have:
30 (#provinces) * 4 (slots per land) * .5 (50% sites) * 1/8 (# of paths) * 2 (gems/site) = 16

I am not sure how this is affected by swamp/mountain/etc terrain (they have a higher chance of sites - though how is another Illwinter mystery!).

As always jacques, very interesting. I am in the camp of putting it a little too powerful but not terribly so - perhaps if they had their magic skills removed if they weren't a leader that would be nice, and probably turn them into unique leaders (for the ones that start out as leaders).

But the undead status does make them great targets for wither bones, so they could be countered regardless of what items you could equip them with.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, I thought a site frequency of 50% meant that
for each of the 4 site slots per province there would be a 50% chance it would be filled? So for 30 provinces you would have:
30 (#provinces) * 4 (slots per land) * .5 (50% sites) * 1/8 (# of paths) * 2 (gems/site) = 16

I am not sure how this is affected by swamp/mountain/etc terrain (they have a higher chance of sites - though how is another Illwinter mystery!).

> Snipped <

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're right. I stand corrected http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . It might not be that much theoretically after all.

But in my experience, 13 gems of a type is still an large income for non-national magic in the 50% site setting.

But I agree totally it's an exploit. It's only a matter of extent how much it is comparing to other tricks when you get to Conjuration 9.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

At least in Dom I, if memory serves the way the 'site frequency' deal worked was that there was an X probability of having _one_ site there, and as long as the check said 'yes' another roll with the same probability took place to possibly add another one, up to a maximum of four.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Isn't the whole Tartarian Gate abusing thing just tied to the - not normal IMHO- possibility for Priestesses to heal afflictions on ... Undead beings ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
It would make sense to make healing only possible for *living* things, no undead or construct (maybe it already doesn't work on constructs), no ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cute idea. [Edit: for Priestesses only - or your undead pretender would be in trouble]

[ February 17, 2004, 21:58: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agree. That'll be a fix of the game system which help this issue.

Two possibilities here: (1) Lifeless units only. The power of golem and other constructs will be decreased; (2) Lifeless *and* undead units. Some powerful undeads will also be affected, noticebly Prince of Dead, Wraithlords. But either way, since only Arco have easy access to healing, the effects on other nations will be limited. Prince of Dead will be less attractive as a pretender choice but it's already powerful enougth - no big deal there.

But still, it bugs me to see so many dead gods walking around for summoning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Let's make them unique http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

BTW, what is the mythological source of the word Tartarian?

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe it's Greek. If I'm not mistaken, Tartarus was the name of one of the parts of Hades...perhaps the area just before the gates of Hades? Guarded by the Cerberus?

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Regarding Tartarus, Wikipedia is your friend.
(Ooh, Hecatonchires with 50 helmet slots and 100 arm slots? Hm.)

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah...LOWER than Hades. Well, at least I was right about it being Greek. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A junkyard for ex-gods - all the defeated Dominions pretenders go there. That's why there is an endless supply of Tartarian Titans! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think is Arco needs balancing, it's the other way around.

Quote:

Right now i'm desperatly trying to survive fighting Jotun, Caelum and Abyssia at once. Even with casting a Tartarian every round it's hard enough.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nothing is easy when you have to fight on so many fronts.

Quote:

In the game you describe with your high death and nature gem income you were incredibly lucky.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I searched for death and nature sites very aggressively, and I don't think +13 and +19 out of ~30 provinces is so incredibly lucky even with the default setting. I got +5 nature from Pangaea's capital BTW, +1 from mine, so actually it's only +13 from random sites. So that's less than .5 death and .5 nature per province from non-capital provinces.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If so, a 50% chance would mean:
8/16 have 0
4/16 have 1
2/16 have 2
1/16 have 3
1/16 have 4

My way would be:
1/16 have 0
4/16 have 1
6/16 have 2
4/16 have 3
1/16 have 4

Quick test in Dom 2-
Searched 16 provinces with 9 magic mages, and found:
1 with 0
4 with 1
7 with 2
2 with 3
2 with 4

I did some larger tests way back when and that's when I came up with my theory on how it's done - seems to hold true now. The swamp/mountain/etc increasing % to find a site further makes this really tough to discern without some feedback from the authorities on this...

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agree. That'll be a fix of the game system which help this issue.

Two possibilities here: (1) Lifeless units only. The power of golem and other constructs will be decreased; (2) Lifeless *and* undead units. Some powerful undeads will also be affected, noticebly Prince of Dead, Wraithlords. But either way, since only Arco have easy access to healing, the effects on other nations will be limited. Prince of Dead will be less attractive as a pretender choice but it's already powerful enougth - no big deal there.

But still, it bugs me to see so many dead gods walking around for summoning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Let's make them unique http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

BTW, what is the mythological source of the word Tartarian? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd vote for Lifeless+Undead "immune" to Healing. It makes more sense than a priestly fixing of a Mech Man broken part http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ..
This would include Undead pretenders - they are rather powerful already, Arco is powerful too, both don't need this extra "healing abuse".

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Re: Mythological source of Tartarian Gate

Tartarus is the deepest section of Hell in classic Greek mythology. It's where most of the worst offenders (primarily the ones that REALLY angered Zeus) were imprisoned. This is where the Titans were imprisoned by Zeus after he overthrew Cronus. Cyclopses were also imprisoned here by Uranus, so it's not surprising those are the two most common results from Tartarian Gate.

Tartarus was surrounded by a huge bronze wall and was forever in the darkest of night with no light at all. The sole gate into Tartarus is guarded by the Hecatoncheires, huge beings with 50 heads and 100 arms. There were three: Briarius (also known as Aegaeon), Cottus, and Gyges (Gyes).


NOTE: I knew that Tartarian Gate referenced Greek myth, but Google is where I got 90% of that information http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif A quick search can do wonders.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no, its not that. The dom I manual was never fixed on this part, but the devs clearly stated that this way of generating sites was abandonned in one of the first patch of dom I (IIRC). Each site roll is independant, 100% sure

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Since this are supposed to be defeated gods you are summoning, wouldn't it be fun to have undead Versions of defeated Gods in the current game be possible summons? Nothing like finally destroying a race, and then have their Niefel giant pretender come back at you the next turn!

As for removing healing from priestesses for constructs/undead, I could see that making sense and should abide by the same rules as who can qualify for regeneration. A new unit that repairs constructs would be nice, and some other way for undead to remove afflictions - how about a Death ritual spell that gives an undead's affliction to another commander?

In a related note, I never thought Gift of Health or the Chalice should work on undead either.

Re: Tartarian factory
 

Perhaps GoH and Priestesses should be able to heal constructs in a Golem Cult, however. Ah, complexity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, something should be done with this. I haven't felt that the Golem Cult is really worth it as is- why not just give them recuperation and restore HP in a friendly dominion?

Side note, I kind of wish that there was a way to seperate the different types of themes: race defining themes like Niefel/Miasma/etc and the special effect ones like Golem Cult/Restless Worshippers/etc. This way you can take an alternate race setup like Utgard and one of the specials like Golem Cult together. Heck, if you want to spend the points, you could even allow taking multiple special effect bonuses!

Re: Tartarian factory
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's something I'd like to see too. Maybe not stacking specials (just imagine what Caelum could do with a strong dominion, Heart of Winter, and stealthy Seraphines boosted with Ceremonial Faith - and shudder). But a theme + a special should be allowed.