Should I buy this game?
 

I love turn-based strategy games with lots of depth, strategic options, and replay variability. I have played all generations of the Civ series, Alpha Centauri, and Space Empires IV. If I were to rank this *short list* of TBS games I would put Alpha Centauri as the best (it is an absolutely brilliant game) and rank Space Empires IV Last.

My reason for ranking Space Empires low is not due to its lack of depth and strategic possibilities, but to the user interface:
(A) There is not enough *visual* feedback to assess your overall current strategic status in the game without examining a dozen info windows each turn.
(B) It is difficult to keep track of enemy movement and aggression between turns since all you see is a snapshot of before and after.

Dominions 2 seems to have the same problem as Space Empires IV with respect to the above, however since I have only played the demo (did the walkthru twice) I don't have enough experience to make a final assessment.

So what I would see as a big improvement to Dominions 2 with respect to my specific issue is more information displayed on the world map (e.g. units), as well as dynamic information displayed between turns (e.g. see army movements between regions). Those of you who have played the Civ series or Alpha Centauri will understand what I am talking about.

So if I buy the game will I discover ways to work around my perceived problem with the game or will it become a coaster along side my Space Empires IV coaster?

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

The movement system in Dom is sufficiently different from SEIV that I don't think you'll have the same problem. There is also alot of information contained on the main screen once you learn what the filters do. F1 is a great screen to help you manage your provinces and even commanders, though there is still some room for improvement.

All in all I'd say go for it, its not really that similar to SMAC, but it has its own charm.

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The score graphs viewable by pressing F2 should provide the info you desire, along with the Nation Overview you can get to by pressing F1.

What troubles me about your posting is that your primary evaluation of the game is how good it's histographs are and not about whether the AI is good, or the gameplay, or the depth of the strategies that you can play with, or the variety of units, equipment, and magic.

I have played SE4, and it, IMO, does not compare to Civ or SMAC. I do think that Dom does compare with those classics. The classics are more polished, but that's only to be expected given the size and budgets of the companies that made them.

In summary, if you buy Dom, and give it a fair shake, I think you will find it remaining on your HD for a long, long time.

But don't take my word for it. Play with the demo you downloaded some more. I think it'll grow on you.

[ February 12, 2004, 16:29: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

Well if the game does become a coaster for you this will be the first time Ive heard of it for the reasons you give.

Usually its not being able to get past the learning curve. Or a pre-disposition to only playing games with super pretty graphics.

As far as Ive been able to tell, anyone who really wants to play a strategic type of game has felt this game to be worth far more than its price in playing time it provides. In fact I think that most of us are still waiting on a coaster date so we can get a final breakdown on its worth. I had Dom1 for 3 years without reaching it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 12, 2004, 16:33: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

The full game is exactly the same as the demo, just with more of everything. If you did not like the demo enough to be compelled to play it repeatedly, as I did, I doubt you would like the full game.

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

The interface is essentially as you see it, unless you haven't found all of the features. Its limits don't bother me, but tastes vary, and I tend to care much more about what goes on in the gameplay, than the convenience of my view of it. I like SEIV (especially the Gold Version, with mods), and wasn't particularly interested in Alpha Centauri. I've been entirely hooked on Dominions (I and II) for months now, and in general rave about it at any opportunity, though I know some people wish the interface were improved in various ways.

PvK

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With respect to (A), my personal opinion is that you should not be able to divine your strategic status in one standing analytical report. It comes from the fact that the amount of information and it's impact is easier to define and use for me personally if it is funneled into sectional data (Research, Income, etc).

The Strategic Map has the following:
Total Income, Total Upkeep, Treasury.
Provincial Information in Provincial Defense, Population, Provencial Income, Resources, Scales (though these are a bit annoying, I'd rather a number or graphical representation for ease of reference), Unrest, Supplies, Supply Usage, and Tax.

The Strategic Map also includes a visual representation of Fort, Army Size, Temple and Commander In Province, Dominion (yours and your enemies).

Selecting an Individual Province will of course allow you to give orders to any and all Commanders in said province, which also includes a popup menu for Commands (like Blood Hunt) if you are unfamiliar with the Hotkeys.

The F1 Key gives a fairly accurate summary of your empire, allowing you to click and adjust specific aspects (like Taxes and Provincial Defense are common ones) as well as know what provinces have been searched and what availiable searching power you have in any particular province. Also a /sword/ icon next to a province name indicates troops present (when next to a Commander, troops under his command). This allows an easier access to independant recruitment and supplementation to your armies. It also provides you with Supplies and Supplies Used.

F7 Allows you to see your total represented Gem Income

F5 Total research levels and RP

F8 Magical Items within your Lab

There are of course UI improvements that are to be desired, but this is pretty much the standard for most games I have played, they have their sections where you gather your data for a particular aspect of the game. Where Dom2 differs is the impact and implementation of all the different aspects and their effect on your Empire.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This can be the case if you base it only off of the Messages viewed at the beginning of the turn. Which I admit are slightly counter-intuitive.

Another visual aid is the fact that on the Strategic Map any province that has had a battle has a crossed sword icon on it (Turn on the Filter with 7 if not visible). This for me provides a better mental image of what happened in what context (I can find routing troops easier, check effects of Scales and their impact on the battle, see if there are reinforcements from me/enemy nearby, etc)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't want to pick IW and Shrapnel's pockets by saying "Don't because you don't like it" but if you don't enjoy a game it has no purpose, so there would be no reason for you to play it if you have played the Demo and it has not appealed to you based on your initial impressions.

My standing advice is, play the Demo again, and again, and again. Play it with 1 AI on Easy on Aran and try things out, do things that are dumb or crazy. Cast spells you have no idea what they are going to do. Set up classic or weird formations of troops and orders.

If you like what you can do and how you can do it, you will like the game. If it seems like one big confusing, hairy mess but you can't seem to stop playing it, you'll like the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . If you can't handle the UI or the way information is detailed and can't get past it, you more than likely will not enjoy the game and noone here would want you to spend your hard earned money on something you wouldn't like.

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

Of course you should buy this game! On the odd chance that you don't like it, please note that the CD has a pretty blue picture and should compliment your Space Empires coaster just fine.

/Johan K
Taking a stab at customer support

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

Not to mention that the manual can be used as a form of Avant Garde Art. Notice how the eyes follow you? Notice how the eyes follow?!

Creepy.

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

How is the interface in SE4 bad? It provides all of the data you need, in appropriate windows. So does Dominions. So does Civ II, SMAC, etc.

Also, there is the "next ship available" button and "next fleet available" button that makes it a snap to find any and all ships that do not have orders, and then cycle through all fleets, respectively. Just like in any of those games you mentioned, other than Dominions, in fact. Sure, you have to click on other systems on the galaxy map to see other portions of your empire, but how is that really any different than clicking on different portions of the minimaps in Civ, SMAC, etc.?

It is impossible to assess how well you are doing in every aspect fo the game from just one window. It requires several different windows to give the information on different areas. This is exactly like in Civ, SMAC, etc., where you have to glance at a bunch of different windows to see how you are doing overall. And there is always the score window...

I think you missed the movement replay log buttons. They will show you all movement that occured in a particular system. There is also a button to show the movement of all ships. You certainly get a lot more than just a snap shot.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is odd, since it has more depth than either of those games.

[ February 13, 2004, 04:35: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

I baught SE4 but I never played it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I really want to actually, I just can't pull myself away from Dominions 2! LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, Dominions II has the same feature. Press "n" to go to the next leader without orders.

PvK

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

Thanks for all of your feedback - there were some very good tips and I want to spend some time playing the D2 demo this weekend to try them out, and come up with a decision whether to buy the game or not. Here's my response to everyone's commments:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes I agree F1 is very, very useful. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned in the walk-through?


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please don't misintrepret my particular percieved issue with D2's UI as the only thing that is important to me - AI/gameplay/strategies/etc are all very important, and I have already got a sense that D2 is a shining example of an excellent strategy game. Space Empires IV also has excellent AI/gameplay/strategies/etc but due to the UI flaws I pointed out in my original post, I just found it too tedious to play.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed. All I would like to see is a little more static and dynamic graphical feedback on the world map to avoid having continually open sub-windows or right-click on each province every turn.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well in the case of Space Empires IV, I made a substantial effort to learn the game, its strategies, but I just found that without the visual feedback I just found it too tedious, kind of like "playing a spreadsheet".


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. I would like to see each indivdual leader shown on the world map with their individual army size, as well as friendly and especially enemy army movement when processing a turn. Of course there would be restrictions on which enemy army movements you would see.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I generally agree with this, however the more I think about it the more I think that what I really think is missing is the display of individual commanders and their specfic army sizes on the world map. By the way, I don't recall seeing ANY indication on the world map that a province contains one of your scouts does it?


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahh excellent tip , thanks Zen.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Amazing, I'll order my copy of D2 right away!!

Imperator Fyron wrote:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey there are good things about the SEIV interface as well, again I just think it should be easier to visually assess your strength on the strategic map and see movement between turns. Your point about replaying system movement isn't quite what I was thinking of - who would want do this for 20+ systems each turn? Why not just have an option to display the movement of fleets/ships in all systems during turn processing?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great tip - thanks!
-----

I guess all my years of playing strategy board games (including hex-based war games with cardboard counters) and the years of playing Civ based computer games has made me "expect" to see units/armies on a strategic map, as well as seeing movement between hexes/squares/regions while you are playing. Without these two elements it feels to me like you are watching cells in a spreadsheet update and detracts from the enjoyment of the game. Am I the ONLY one who thinks this way or are there others?

To summarize, I would like a better graphical representation of individual leaders and army strength on the world map, and see leader/army movement during turn processing. Of course there would have to restrictions on specifically which enemy movement you see. Does anyone know if Ilwinter is good at accepting enhancement requests and actually delivering some of them with updates (Aaron WAS very good at this with Space Emipires)?

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

After playing the D2 demo over the weekend - I must say that I'M HOOKED! and have just ordered the game!!

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Congrats! Everyone that sticks with the demo long enough to figure out some of the UI issues seems to get hooked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Should I buy this game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Amen to that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif