Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

I just purchased this game and have played a few games with all AI's on easy. Since I'm a big Lovecraft fan I chose R'lyeh as my race. Problem is I can't come even close to winning, and the Ermor opponent seems unbalanced. In my current game, Ermor has about six hundred troops and I can't seem to scrape together more than about 50. When I look at the army strength history, no one is even close to Ermor in military might.

I thought I could use my spellcasting ability to my advantage and make up for lack of numbers but the AI keeps pissing me off by casting spells such as Breath of Cold right next to my own units and, in one case, killed two of my commanders this way. No enemy units were even near the caster at the time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

In another game my Pretender was feebleminded after several attempts to summon. The first attempt resulted in a few wimpy units. WTF? Talk about too much risk for too little gain.

I would definately like to see a patch address spellcasting stupidity because it really hurts races that rely on magic like R'lyeh. I also wish there were a way to save a game before a battle so you can reload if you get screwed in cases like that.

What is a good world set up and race choice for a beginner that can't come close to victory with easy AI settings? I suppose leaving out Ermor would be wise? At this point, however, I'm on the verge of just calling it quits. There are other ways to give yourself frustration that at least you get paid for.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

R´lyeh vs. Ermor is probably also a very tough match. R´lyeh lives mostly on its mind attacks and most Ermorians are mindless.
You might want to try against some other race until you learn the game a bit better.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

It's best to leave Ermor out of games against AI. If you want an easy game, play against Mictlan on a small map.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Having Ermor in a game with other AIs is in general not a good idea, IMO, as the AIs do not know how to handle them, so it will ultimately be you against Ermor, and as a beginner, that's likely more than you can handle, as you have seen. Taking a nation who's primary form of attack is mental against a nation which has mainly mindless units is the worst sort of match-up, and only compounds your problems as a beginner. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can manually save the 3 game turn files (zip them up) each turn before you press 'host' and thus be able to go back and replay a battle, repositioning your units or scripting different spells. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try Jotunheim. Giants are big and tough and can usually crush most independents with little trouble at the default settings. Or you can try Ulm, which has very tough units. As for maps, it's hard to go wrong with a smaller map like Aran and few AIs.

It's easier, IMO, to learn the game by trying mundane tactics of crushing your enemies with traditional troops and traditional fire & maneuver tactics, and wade in slowly with the more 'advanced' concepts of magic attacks and magical units. It gives you a feel for the basic game mechanics, without overwhelming you with everything at once. Just my view, FWIW.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Ah, R'lyeh. I feel your pain, my friend. I, too, went 'Oh, boy, Lovecraftian monsters!'

R'lyeh is very... odd. Let me give you a quick summary of some of the things you're facing.

First, your god should NEVER be entering the void gate. Use only priests and Cthugul the Stargazer. You will also probably want to assign tough bodyguards, by putting them in a squad for that priest and giving them the order 'guard commander'. Illithid priests are feebleminded MUCH less than any other unit, and are generally better summoners. Follow these instructions, and instead of screaming, hair-pulling frustration you will soon have small armies of unspeakable things from Beyond, with names and powers that will fill you with glee.

AI Ermor is a very tough opponent for a new player. Plus, Ermor is one of the races that's strongest against R'lyeh. As you have noticed, the awesome mind bLast attack is the starspawns' greatest advantage, and it does nothing against the endless undead hordes of Ermor.

Also, illithids have VERY expensive upkeep. You will never be able to create a terribly large army of them. Certainly, you'll have a single army capable of taking on anything that has brains to bLast, but you won't have backup armies.

Be at peace. It is not that R'lyeh is uncompetitive. It's just an obscure specialty nation, whose strengths are counterbalanced with weaknesses. It is also weighed down with many subtleties you are not informed of in the manual.

I heartily recommend reading a couple of threads about gathering blood slaves, and having a go at Abysia as well. If you like Lovecraftian Things, then you will probably take an equally unspeakable joy in watching squads of demon knights mow down your enemies, or sticking Soul Contracts on weenie 50 gold human priests and watching them become devil factories.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Spell AI is one of the more problematic areas, I'd say. Last night, I spent some time trying to figure out why one of my Grand Thaugmaturgs was casting Vortex of Returning when the battle was being *won* -- vastly outnumbering enemy, some enemies Master Enslaved, enemy pretender paralyzed, nothing remaining that Nether Darts and the longdead couldn't handle. I'm still not sure what the trigger was; perhaps it was the damage done to an Ermorian Cultist standing next to a cold-aura Bane?
In addition, my Grand Thaugmaturgs, once they exhausted their scripts, ignored Relief (even when fatigue >= 90 for the Thaugs I used as communion slaves) and largely ignored Paralyze / Soul Slay / Nether Darts in favor of Reanimation spells, despite having more than enough spell power (16+ slaves, starshine skullcaps, Banner of the Northern Star, plus rune smasher/spell focus/astral clams on each master). T'was irritating, considering that the extra undead provided no benefit seeing as how they weren't able to engage due to the already-existing masses of undead. Relief should be higher priority when fatigue is up there, ground-pounder summons should be lower when there are troops in the way, weak undead summons should be very low priority when the numbers are already lopsided (e.g. ~600+ vs ~60, as that battle was IIRC). Bothersome.
(Vortex of Returning is... odd. There's a spell to take everybody home, but it only works in battle? Outside of battle, there's no ritual nearly that powerful, although none are capitol-restricted either.)

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's what I was afraid of. If the AI can't handle "simple" spells like Breath of Cold, how can it handle more complex spells and situations?

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Well, THAT may just be aim.

If you're new, you may not realize: Everybody has REALLY BAD AIM. A mage with a precision of 10 requires almost miraculous luck to hit their assigned target with any spell. More often than not, they'll be wildly off, even hit your own units.

That's one of the reasons why Illithids are so deadly, because mind burn is a ranged attack that cannot miss and doesn't care about range.

An Eye of Aiming, or preprogramming your mage to cast (I think it's 'Eagle Eye'?) at the start of a fight is absolutely necessary if you plan on using these ranged combat spells. Fortunately, that +5 difference between 10 and 15 takes you from 'unable to hit the broad side of a barn' to 'very accurate'.

And yeah, the AI is outrageously stupid as to which spells it chooses to cast. You can preprogram some to start a fight, or try and force the issue (by giving a non-mage a spellcasting item, or using a mage whose exact magical levels limit him to certain spells), but basically you just have to hope they cast something useful.

Mages get a bit of a bum deal where offensive spells are concerned.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Ermor is by far the toughest AI opponent. Even when placed on easy setting with other AI opponents on difficult setting.... ERMOR will still usually win.

Simple answer is take Ermor out of your games... until you feel that you have mastered the game.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From what I understand of the description, Breath of Cold (if that's what you're referring to) doesn't require aim and acts like a damaging aura around the caster. In my case, he destroyed many of my own units near him, including two of my best generals.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Yeah, that's AI spellcasting stupidity. That's one good reason to spread out commanders. Keeps them from all getting detonated if you run into bad luck somewhere.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Whats even more annoying though is when your commander kills all his blood slaves... Even without casting any personal spells Abysian (and other) commanders can light up the slaves like stogies after a few rounds... now that's annoying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If that's true (and I have no reason to doubt it), this is a major balance problem with the game. If an AI can do that much better with Ermor, then how much of an advantage would a human have using Ermor in multiplayer games?

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's just too bad. At least the poor, innocent girls are finally at peace. You can always try a less-bloody approach. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

-- Arryn, the fanatic abolitionist

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not much. Ermor is relatively easy to counter with what Norfleet describes as "drive-by priestings". Several priests in a pack, casting Banishment, can wreak holy havoc (pun intended) on Ermorian armies. The game's problem is that the other national AIs don't use this tactic against Ermor. So in SP Ermor grows much stronger than it should, and leaves you a mess to deal with. It's not much fun when you play game after game and it tends to always be you vs. Ermor at the end.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Also, Ermor requires the ability to manage ridiculously huge armies that spring up all over the place helter-skelter, gathering them up into roaming assault forces. This is what the AI is really *good* at. All other nations try the same tactic, and it's really optimized for Ermor.

Humans are not so efficient - though I imagine some people find this style to come rather naturally to them. Drives me insane, personally.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

you need alot of cheap priests that'll be enough.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's just too bad. At least the poor, innocent girls are finally at peace. You can always try a less-bloody approach. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

-- Arryn, the fanatic abolitionist </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahh, but where's the fun in that? I mean in the end this game is all about blood and death and corrupting those who don't see things your way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I just wish that my commanders would be a little more careful whom they stand next to... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

NOTE TO SPLOOGER:

Splooger, you are a newb, arrite? You will find many things very annoying and gay, etc. Once you become an expert and know the game well, you will find that many things which you thought to be unbalanaced, stupid, dumb... turn out to be nothing more than your "unkowing" of the game.

Thasss the bottom line. Continue to ask questions and you will get answers, but first you need to realise that you are a NEWB!!! (and i'm not trying to be mean here) Arrite, that's it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Err... just curious... in this context, what can be the meaning of this word??

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

i don't really get your question, but...

I'm basically saying any newb will get frustrated easily with Dominions 2.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Err... just curious... in this context, what can be the meaning of this word?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I assume you mean 'gay'. Basically it means 'silly' or 'foolish' in this context. Perhaps not the most PC choice of verbage, but then again being PC is just 'gay' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

OMG... not another english lesson. Gay can mean "happy" too.

I don't expect anyone to think there's anything homosexually wrong with Dominions 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Arcosephale has Heart Companions...
...not that there's anything wrong with that.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, from the context of your prior post it is highly unlikely though that you meant 'gay' as happy, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

No you meant 'gay' as strange, annoying, bizarre, wierd, silly, swishy, ... and that's ok... at least by me, but I love tweeking the nose of the PC crowd, not that there appears to be a large contingent of them around this board... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't even know what that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't even know what that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are some benefits to a Classical education.

Try reading up on your Greek ancient history. Or do a Google search if you are of the no-patience Gen-X/Y/Z/whatever crowd. Wonderful tool, Google ...

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

I think this is supposed to be my cue for a long and extended rant about the decline of the educational system. Since I just gave this rant elsewhere 5 minutes ago, I don't feel like doing it again, so just consider it ranted about.

[ February 12, 2004, 23:49: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Hey, I got a public education in Georgia, home of (officially) the worst high school system in the union, and I get that stuff . . . sometimes it is getting out of something what you put into it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'm not saying the education system is not guilty, but it isn't completely for to blame.

Splooger (and by the way that's a . . . unique username), don't get frustrated with the game. The bright thing to do is, at first, to play smaller maps as conventionally powerful countries such as Jotunheim or, heck, even Ermor. Or you can jump into the complex countries, but take care to do your homework on them. Even on easy, this game presents a challenge, particularly because there isn't an autosave function or any save function like in Civilization where you can try out different strategies in the short term via the save games. In the end, though, it makes for a more complete, rounded game.

[ February 13, 2004, 00:23: Message edited by: moodgiesanta ]

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure it is. Nowadays, you need to actively desire to learn to figure anything out. In MY day, it was MANDATORY, and if you failed to pay attention, the teacher would beat you! It was a great incentive system. Now it's "child abuse". Bah! Children NEED to be regularly beaten, particularly if they're being stupid. A desire not to receive a painful thrashing is a VERY powerful motivating force, and don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise! If YOU ever have children, be sure to regularly beat them.

Playing Ermor is probably not all that great of a choice for a new player: While easy and highly effective against the AI, Ermor is very one-dimensional, not nearly as effective against other human players, and the AI isn't really programmed to cope with it. Ermor experience doesn't really translate well into managing other empires. Jotunheim is a good choice to start, particularly since there's a tutorial written by a Bruce Geryk, or Cinnamony, or somebody. I've seen it under two different names or so. Are they the same people?

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Bruce Geryk = Ceremony

A great guy and Superhero in his own mind!

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We-ell, describing Belphegor (a somewhat obese snake-man) as a 'seducer of men' should make any self-respecting gym queen think "in his dreams maybe". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, for me, Google turned up a reference to Doms II before finding one to the Theban Sacred Band, the historical precedent the Heart Companions are presumably based on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Congrats!! You passed the test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, for me, Google turned up a reference to Doms II before finding one to the Theban Sacred Band, the historical precedent the Heart Companions are presumably based on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is absolutely hilarious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Well in my history books Campagnons were Alexander Heavy cavalry unit, not phalangist.

Darius armies got the kind of people the game impersonnate as the Heart Companions but they are called the Immortals.

That was the first thing I notice when I look into Arcos armies.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Dominions has a save game function. It's called "tar -cf".

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahhhh you speak Klingon?
"Grep ls awk chmod?"
"Mknod ksh tar imap."
"Wall fsck yacc!" (that Last is obviously a curse of some sort)

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, you know, the amusing thing is that "Immortals" were a total misnomer: They weren't anything close to immortal. Rather, they died easily and were very quickly replaced, giving enemies the impression that they were immortal. Of course, "The Expendables" isn't quite as inspiring a name.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not in Gatesburg there isn't. It's been declared anathema by the Lord High Priest Billy.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

What am I missing here?

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">... an education in UNIX commands.

Re: Starting to get frustrated with this game
 

Clearly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks.