Most difficult nation
 

Is there a consensus as to which nation is the most difficult to play and succeed in conquering the world(s)?

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Depends on world.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And on the victory conditions. And on the world settings. And on what AIs are used, or the skill of the human players.

In short, the question is too broad/vague. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Carrion Woods Pangaea probably.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Starting position can make a lot of difference. If you mean conquer the World in the World Map scenario, for example, then Mictlan has a very good starting position, while Ulm's is really awful. In fact, I spent weeks trying to find a way to survive it against impossible AI's, before finally finding a strategy that made it possible... whereas my Mictlan attempt succeeded on the first try. And yet I consider Ulm far easier to play than Mictlan.

I would say that nations with no access to good heavy infantry are harder to play (Mictlan and Pangea come to mind), but that may be my play style...

Re: Most difficult nation
 

The best one is the one that most matches your playing style. The worst one is the one which most does NOT match your playing style.

Seriously. Ulm and Arcos are often listed as easy to win with but personally I do badly with Ulm because I play too defensively and cautiously. And I do bad with Arcos because I neglect to pay enough attention to magic research. But thats one of the great things about this game.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would have to agree with General Tacticus.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What nation most closely matches your playing style, Gandalf?

Re: Most difficult nation
 

I think I've heard Gandalf talk about the stealthiness of Pangea and Man enough to bet they match his playing style.

Personally I see why Pythium is a wonderful nation in theory, but I can never quite use it right. I can use Arco however. Carrion woods pangea is probably infamous as being the trickiest for most people to use. I don't have it figured out at all.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Actually Im not sure which one matches my style most. Probably Jotun because it allows for strong defensive play and is forgiving to forgetfulness.

Its my hacker tendencys that control my choices. I have a strong dislike for menus, defaults, and obvious choices. For me its no fun to try and win with the obvious choice so whatever seems to be the underdog will get my most attention.
I think I have the most fun with Pangaea though.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

I have to admit to a liking for Jotuns as well - especially the Niefelheim theme.

There is something to be said for ordinary troops that are so tough they can rack up a series of major battle inflictions through combat - and still be a force to be reckoned with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

There is nothing quite like looking through a Niefel or Jotun pack after a series of heavy battles and checking which interesting afflictions they have ended up with.

(And seing Niefel giants RUN DOWN fleeing heavy cavalry is a sight to behold http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Myself, I do poorly with resource-expensive countries. Not Jotun, but other countries that have cheaper alternatives, because I have such a tendency to mass-produce cheapies. That's why Mictlan is so fun for me, since your strength lies in your hordes of wussy troops drawing fire from the people doing the real damage. Ulm, regular flavor, is hard for me, being a defensive, research minded fellow, as is Black Forest Ulm, of those races that I have played more than one game with. I can't stand having all those resource heavy troops. I'd take a bajillion Mictlan warriors being blessed to the nines and having their javelins magically guided and having wicked demons come in after the opponent had been softened by my hordes. I don't like slow dudes that are produced in my castles and are expensive and have weak-o mages.

So for this game, I really think you have to say it is a matter of playstyle. If you like high magic and billions of blood slaves along, Mictlan is good. If you like wicked heavy infantry and a dominion that withers your opponents mages but not your smith dudes, Ulm with a heavy drain scale is good. If you like big giants, go with Jotun, etc.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

I do poorly with Ulm. I just cant make them work. My only serious victory came when I had a resource rich secondary castle, 2 mines churning out +50 resources, and an Indep long bow in that province. So the only time I won with Ulm, I played them like they were Man. lol.

I keep trying to make Niefelheim work, too, because they are my favorite in-flavour nation/theme, but the mages are SO expensive, with no good researcher options, you need indy researchers, which there is no guarantee of. Love the theme, though, so I keep trying.

I did ok with Arcos, but nowhere as near as well as you hear about around here.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

I seem to have the most problem with Mictlan. I enjoy them all the more for it, actually, but I'm always pleased when I'm doing well as them. That's directly related to my comparitive inexperience with blood magic, which I don't care for so much.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

I'm rather a wargamer type, so am only able to succeed with nations that have sound strong heavies - Ulm, Arco, Pythium, Abysia - and suck with more subtle nations like Pangea, Mictlan, or R'lyeh.
Maybe Pythium is the easiest IMO : just stack Principes, add some Standards, get some indy archers, back with Theurgs+Communicants http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Contrary to Peter E I'm not that easy with Jotuns - troops are very expensive, never numerous and I get easily mobbed... Plus I still have difficulty with Blood economy.

Never played Atlantis, they seem so weak ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Most difficult nation
 

I find myself that most of the themes are on the weak side. Its becoming a pet peeve of mine (after speed replay of tac battles that is), but frankly something ought to be done.

Thats being said, in any game setting not geared too much toward blitzing, Ulm main theme is the weakest nation for me. So straightfoward that its like you have complete intelligence on his armies, and what they can do. Early one Ulm is better to capitalize on his strong HI, because the advantage wont Last long.

I had the most fun with Marignon. There is a plentiful of things to perform with them.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Using Jotunheim's blood ability is entirely optional and, to my mind, not really worth it in the early game where you need to concentrate on building a decent giant force while working on summons. Certainly a devil factory is somewhat less valuable than for other blood nations, as blood mages are expensive and the climate cold. The Ice Devils and Ice Fiends, on the other hand, can provide a strong end-game component to your forces.


To avoid getting mobbed, it is advisable to bring alone some cheap chaff that you can afford to lose, and put in on the flanks, while you keep a Jotun/Niefel (if Niefelheim) force in the centre. The undead are IDEAL for that purpose, and you have easy access to low-level death magic. At higher conjuration levels I find that Sea Trolls are an extremely good complement to a Jotun force as they are excellent meatshields with a decent punch that do not consume supplies (often a priority with giant forces http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) As the Sea Kings produce a water gem per round, each Sea King becomes a free Sea Troll recruiment post once summoned. Produce two astral gem generators (10 water gems each) for each Sea King hiding away in a fortress summoning Sea Trolls, and you are on your way to something great.

You do not really need water gems for much other than summoning Sea Trolls or generating astral gems, and together they make a good combination. (With just a tiny boost, Angerboda the Great Hag can be summoning Ether Warriors for those nice astral gems in the mid-game)

Another excellent flanker can be obtained through the medium level spell Pale Riders that gives you an awful lot of longdead horsemen at a low price. While rather fragile, they perform the role of flank shock absorbers excellently, and with attack rear orders and enough of them, you can surround many enemies completely while your giants tear them apart.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">C'mon Pocus, Ulm ain't that weak... or is it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
As you said it's rather than Ulm is not flexible, and so usually quite predictable. Sometimes you can do funny things with them but only if you get indie mages to "flexibilize" your magic.

You're rather MP-oriented, and indeed lack of flexibility is a big drawback in MP. But in SP it's not true, the AI doesn't counterplan your strategy, and Ulm has tough troops and easily usable magics (Earth = protection buff, Fire = Kaboom on enemies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )that are Ok vs AIs.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

I really only play Multiplayer, so I don't have experience with alot of nations yet, but...

So far I've done the best with Rl'yeh. The early invulnerability (in most cases) of an underwater capitol is a great boon to me, and the ability to cut through indies like the cliched hot knife through butter is really great too (Indies no like mind bLast)...

When I got the game, I thought I'd do best with a Necromantic nation like Ermor or C'tis. No such luck, apparently... I suck with C'tis, and Ermor is... Ermory.

[ February 19, 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: undead dolphin hacker ]

Re: Most difficult nation
 

It sounds like in MP, Ermor is the whipping boy of the crowd. Would that not suggest that it is the weakest in MP? The very strength of the nation makes it a “must kill” target, perversely making it weak, or at least very hard to win with.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Ermor gets killed not because they are the whipping boy. But because you have less to gain by taking their territories, which are more of a pain to take. An intelligent Ermor player won't make his provinces a target by oversearching ones too near enemies as Gem Income is the only real factor.

Other than that, it's very easy to deal with Ermor, but if you let them grow they can get out of control if you don't know how to fight them with a human mind behind it.

Edit: Or if the Ermor player is really stupid and casts Burden of Time or Utterdark without being ready for the consequences.

[ February 19, 2004, 09:36: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, is R'lyeh fast enough in MP ? Actually in SP I already have a lot of trouble cutting through indies (tritons that is) at all since they tend to swarm and cut down my fodder fairly fast and my Illithids can't survive for long if they are attacked by lots of "fliers" at once.

Due to this I mainly try to head for the land as fast as possible in SP, but in MP this would negate R'lyeh's advantage of "invulnerability" (except to Atlantis/Undead).

What are you doing to be able to expand fast vs. tritons ? Unless we are talking indies at 5 or lower that is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

CharonJr

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tritons, like all enemy fliers, are a real pain in the ***. In the VERY early game, it's probably best to sidestep these provinces: You need a bit of cash to take these out. Illithids are a very poor choice to use against these provinces: As you noticed, the Tritons quickly dogpile onto them and kill them. Illithids are expensive. Since the setup doesn't exactly give them an opportunity to effective employ their mind bLasting powers, it's best to just leave them at home for this. Instead, I find that Tritons can be taken on most effectively by a combination of Crab Hybrids and Shamblers. A block of Crab Hybrids, with their improved protection of 14, can absorb the initial shock of the Triton attack, while the Shamblers can then trample the Tritons while they're locked in combat with the crabs.

Casualties among the crab hybrids should not be of overly great concern, as they won't be much use once you finish taking over the ocean anyway, as long as you don't lose so many that you can't finish the job. Tritons are just going to melee you regardless of how you try to prevent it, so you may as well simply deal with them head on.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Ulm is strong, it is the only nation i've managed to slaughter ermor with, after 50 played turns.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hum, popular opinion would rather be the contrary .. Marignon IS Ermor's Bane, Ulm with its limited magic, weak priests and mostly-human troops is fodder for ghosts ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Against BE or AR Ermor AI I admit Ulm can fare well facing hordes of crap Longdead/Soulless, but against SG Ermor Ulm is maybe the weakest nation of all...

Re: Most difficult nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hum, popular opinion would rather be the contrary .. Marignon IS Ermor's Bane, Ulm with its limited magic, weak priests and mostly-human troops is fodder for ghosts ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Against BE or AR Ermor AI I admit Ulm can fare well facing hordes of crap Longdead/Soulless, but against SG Ermor Ulm is maybe the weakest nation of all... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not necessary.

Constructs and Fall Bears don't rout. To banish the undeads, even Ulm's cheap priests are more than adequate. For the rest, Blade Wind can take care of them.

I would think Abysia being weaker versus Ermor. Their priests might be strong but too expensive to field many. And their regular units are in general too expensive to be expendible.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

It's always seemed to me ctis is best as ermor's bane. Admittedly it's hard to keep the troops from routing, but you get wither bones, raise skeletons to make undead fodder of your own, and priests ranging from level 2 to 4. Of course other nations can do a decent job too, such as man (30! gold priests and accurate longbows to mow down the masses of weak slow moving undead)

Re: Most difficult nation
 

ulm needs no supplies with their favourite summons, this in SP thought.

i have yet to try my strategy in MP, i beat marignon, ermor and abysia in a SP game(all on impossible ai) just now with ulm on a kinda large random map with 90 land territories and 10 water ones.

Setting were the ones i always use in SP.
9 indie
everything normal
50 magic sites
victory condition 50 points ala 20 1 point 15 2 point ones.


the marignon pretender was a bit weird,i took over his imprisonment from ermor who had taken all his lands & forts, he stayed around until i outpreachedd him in the end, he was using a phoenix pretender and couldn't be killed weirdly enough o.O he had a elixir of life and had died about 300 times.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Black Forest can be good vs Ermor. Ghoul Guardians cannot be banished by Ermorian priests.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

Good point. The ghoul guardians can't be banished, wont starve, wont get tired, and have the armor and weapon to hack through hordes of soulless or longdead. I can see them being very useful against ermor...however the vampires won't be so great and the wolves are only really moderately useful, despite being free.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

The question implies many subquestions.
Some of these might be
1. Which nation is the most challenging to raise armies and win battles with?
2. Which nation is the most challenging to master its full potential?

To 1, I would say that Mictlan is difficult because of its generally "weak" individual units. I find Machaka also challenging because of its poor PD. I find Pangaia challenging due to similar reasons, but somewhat less so. I would tend to put Ulm and Abysia and Jotunheim in the group: Not as challenging. But of course, as Gandalf and others have said, this will depend on your style too.

To 2, this depends even more on your style. I would also answer Mictlan and Machaka off the bat; there is a LOT of room there for VERY different strategies. To this group I would also put Tien Chi, due to its very diverse magic potential. I find both underwater nations challenging because I cant understand the contexts in which they thrive. I would also put Vanheim in this group, since I cant figure out how to use blood-1 or construct a decent pretender with good synergy effects.

Well just some thoughts.

Re: Most difficult nation
 

As well as depending on your individual playstyle, it would presumably depend on whether you were playing in singleplayer or multiplayer games.

For example, I've found it very easy to play Jotunheim in single player (helped by finding two Libraries each of which produced a surprising number of blood 1 sages to give me cheap bloodhunters) BUT I did notice that my tactics naturally relied a lot on Cold effects and slow tactical move units like Ice Drakes and Blood vines, which a human player would easily counter.