Golden Era Discussion
 

Lets talk about the new Arco theme. I like the thematics of it, especially the Skeptiks and the Philosophers. The Icarids are especially cool too. The Myrmidons look to be quite solid HI (and look cool to boot). Wind riders are powerful as well (if insanely expensive).

Main limitations I can see is all the good units of GA cost a lot of resources; with the mandatory 1 sloth, this makes it very difficult to levy any significant number of quality troops. The peltasts and Cardaces get destroyed in combat rather readily (I haven't played much with Arco standard so I don't know how Arco usually gets around this, with Elephants I'd suppose). The new chariots seem good but are also extremely expensive.

The 50g Philosophers with 5 base research are awesome with a 3 magic scale. Combined with the versitile and powerful mystics, GA with magic 3 can probably research faster than just about anyone. However, the unpredictability of the Sage's magic picks makes it difficult to focus on a particular research goal unless you have a pretender-based strategy. Additionally, the seemingly weak initial military choices seems to suggest to me a SC pretender approach might work well, to grab the inital provinces needed to get things going. Mercenaries might be useful too.

Feel free to contribute any thoughts on how to make the most of this cool new theme; I'll be trying them out over the next couple days.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I´d use the Great Sage (research +10) with them. Between the Great Sage and the Philosophers, your research will be insane! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

What about a Cyclops and a rush to the Riches from Beneath? Cyclops could also be used as an early-game SC.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was considering something along these lines. Riches is a level 6 spell, which is fairly advanced but not too bad (especially with the research potential of GE). I guess the real question would be if you could find enough gems to cast it and not have it dispelled. I'll have to play with that some later.

I tried a game with a Wyrm with W4 and Order 2, Sloth 1, Growth 1, Misfortune 1 and Magic 3. Started early expansion with Wyrm mainly, and by turn three was also working with a small army of peltasts and cardaces. Even with just Order 3, the light infantry of GE is so cheap that I couldn't spend my money fast enough (generally a bad sign). So I went mercenary heavy to aid expansion and by turn 15 I have 12 provinces (had 14 but Ryleh has just taken two), 60 RP and 564 income. This is with indy str 6 btw.

While it is an alright start, it is weak in gems (1F, 2A, 4W, 2E, 1S, 1D, 0N, 0BL income) and most of those provinces are poorly defended (and thus I have an angry Ryleh maruading through my backyard). I think a strategy that focuses on getting capitol adjacent provinces and then building a decent army/researching might be safer, since the military might of GE is somewhat questionable (though hordes of cheap peltasts/cardaces work better than I'd have thought).

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

I just tested using Skeptics (Yes I prefer the classic spelling).

While the army may or may not have it's benefits or pains, but the Skeptics definintely fill a much needed role. About 4 Skeptics will tear down a 6 Dominion in a temple/prophet province in 2 turns and drop it to 0. A few more Skeptics in outlying provinces and a decent army and suddenly it's not a war of magic, or armies, but of keeping you dominion. Unfortunately with the easy access to patrolling and it's sheer effectiveness against Stealthy +0 units, they won't see the light of day in MP unless there is a +Stealth item you could equip them with.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good luck catching them with patrols when they can move around every turn.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

As far as I can tell, the lowering of the dominion only affects the province they are in. And the patrol phase is after the enemy movement phase. So if you know they are going to be used against you (if the Arco player is playing GE) then all you have to do is have 10+ Normal Patrollers (Slingers/Militia work fine) or 20+ PD and it will catch almost every Stealthy +0 unit as they enter the province.

With the cost of GE's armies and their low production it's quite a bit more difficult than would seem to put up an army to match most other nations. Especially since they don't have much of a lower resource unit to fill the ranks. Unless you try using Slingers, Cardaces, PeltLast for the bulk of your army (Gogo Protection). With no access to a standard and the amount of men that die from any normal HI, the Ol' Chariots don't have shields so they get decimated by Friendly Fire from Javelins, it's a rough world for GE.

Please Note: I feel the theme is very nice; The Engineer alone makes you think about different choices for Castles, which in and of itself, is a great thing.

[ February 17, 2004, 04:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

Maybe the best use of Skeptics in MP would be to move in with your armies to suppress your enemies' dominion as you conquer their territory. It's awfully hard to dominion-kill a human player who's entranched in his Last few fortresses usually, but maybe not with Golden Era.

All in all I think the new theme's troops rather suck because of the mandatory sloth, but they look so cool. Still in my tests I have a very hard time recruiting anything but peltasts.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

That is what I spend 90% of my gold on in my tests. They do fairly well against things without tower shields. What kills me is the Chariots (which have good enough morale that you can put 10 of them in a squad and not have them rout, which is very nice) running into the middle of the fight, then getting mowed down by a wave of javalins. Since they don't have any sort of shield (...) they have no defense against them and get torn up.

I don't even want to talk about the Wind Riders, unless you have a decent Air blessing (7ish will do) the javelins mow them over if there are any left from their initial assult.

Can't seem to get enough Myrmidon's to really see any impact, especially since Chariots are right around the same Resource cost. And the Icarid fall into the same Category as the Wind Riders except they are economically feasible to throw away 5-10 on a chance to throw casters into disaray.

I kind of wish the Engineers had a build bonus ability, to say lower the cost of building a Castle by a % or the time to build by a %. (Yes, I'd like to try to build Fortified Cities everywhere, but it just doesn't work.)

As I said the Skeptics are great for nulling domain, good for driving into the heart of an enemy who relies on high domain, just can't do it without an army backing them, as they easily get chowed down by PD/Patrollers.

[ February 17, 2004, 06:31: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it seems Wind Guide and Arrow Fend are definitely must-haves for the theme. Can't see how to work around the lack of synergy of the various units without them.

Quote:

I kind of wish the Engineers had a build bonus ability, to say lower the cost of building a Castle by a % or the time to build by a %.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or I'd like to have them build some sort of special siege unit - give me Trojan horses please! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Quote:

As I said the Skeptics are great for nulling domain, good for driving into the heart of an enemy who relies on high domain

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It seems they also affect your own dominion. Might be an idea to go full sloth and deploy some Skeptics in your production centers to get an average production scale there, and stick to peltasts in the capital.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wooden Constructs anyone?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would also take away your order. Hard decision; but I suppose you could. If you did take Sloth 3 (which also impacts your gold flow nationwide, though I suppose you just take Growth to counter it) you also lose your Order 3 and Luck/Misfortune in that production center.

More than likely I imagine I'd prefer getting 21% Gold while still being able to manufacture 10% less (or 30% if you take the big sloth hit).

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

I just tried making the All Powerful Pretender of Bless Effect Destruction, with all negative scales.

It's not going well, because skeptics don't null your domain fast enough, also makes you produce Skeptics non-stop at your capital as you expand. Though it's an interesting idea. You could be dominioned out fairly quickly using these scales. Might be a better idea to take Luck 3 and Magic 3 and try and keep the Capital to a positive dominion.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could still pick Order+3/Sloth+3 and build castles and stack Skeptics in resource-rich mountain provinces. These provinces usually don't provide as much gold as farmlands (which are usually resource poor), so the income hit here would be pretty minimal I think (eg, say a mountain produces ~50 gold or less, you lose just 21% of that, ie at most ~10 gold/turn - not really a big hit).

Basically it's a trade for 80 design points vs a 4% income loss nationwide, the need to put extra Skeptics in your non-capital centers, and maybe a more difficult start due to the inability to raise troops efficiently early when you're limited to your capital - but to make up for that, these 80 design points might allow you to give more muscle to a SC, for example.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

I love the theme, just yum, but I got turned off by the fact that *all* interesting units are capitol-based. It's worse than Mictlan! Yes, neato, but it is just a chore for me to schlepp them from my capital all over the world. Looks great, but the sole reason I dislike Mictlan is the capitol-dependence (or is it capital?). Well good luck and have fun with the philosophers!

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on if you get those types of provinces and you can expand that early to do so. It's an interesting concept, hard to do initially and your start is fairly slow even with a SC pretender taking provinces alone (I used a Red Dragon).

Definitely a strategy that can be used. Though I don't know if it's overall better than base. I tried base scales (0 Order, 0 Luck) and got on the raw end of events. That might be the only consideration.

[ February 17, 2004, 08:12: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

This theme is rather interesting and I had fun testing it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Moloch with Fire 9 or 10 seems to work great with is as he can be early super combatant too (Moloch casting fire darts can take lots of independent provinces alone early in game), but will make your blessed Pegasus Riders insanely powerful as well (and worth the money). I would usually build a flying carpet, give it to my prophet Priestess and send her to accompany/bless my group of Pegasus Riders led by Pegasus Commander. They would be my deep strike team that could take all but most heavily defended provinces. Pegasus Commander can be given nice items (like ones for luck and etherealness) to make him into a SC too.

Sloth 1 is a penalty to them, but without that they would be too powerful - they have units to take out enemy dominion, trample, flyers which are probably most powerful in game (Pegasus Riders that are sacred), cheap researchers while still keeping Arco priestess and astral 2 mages.
You can, at least partially, overcome sloth penalty by using castles with large administration - Fortified City is almost a must.

Basically, I was worried that they could be too powerful but it seems it is not the case since, while powerful, most of their units cost either lots of gold or resources or both.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

You must have had more luck with your Wind Riders than I did. They get chopped up very easily by archers/spells.

Though of course maybe you have to build 10+ in order for them to not have a terrible attrition (making an initial charge rout the enemy)

I agree that the movement factor of the Wind Rider is a significant detail; but they are fragile if you are going up against a human opponent. You almost have to take a 9 Fire/9 Air Blessing to counteract it. As Spring Hawks eat them for dinner as well as any missile fire.

Edit: Also it's very easy to make them waste their lances on Harpies or Black Hawks. And target them with missilefire because they are fliers.

[ February 17, 2004, 08:42: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I've been using Chariots with bows and gave them orders hold and attack (to test recent tweaks on it among other things). They would shoot 2 volleys at enemy and then in and trample away. Javelins and archers would, by that time be targeting other units (most likely HI) and my losses to Chariots were ALWAYS minimal.
Chariots without bows are also useful, and you can use them to charge at melee troops to break down their front lines.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My Chariots behave exactly the opposite. They fire 2 volleys, then they rush in and start crunching on little people, the first charge usually nets no deaths (as the chariots are still near the front of the lines). It's the 2nd and 3rd turn of Trampling that usually gets them in trouble as well as if some portion of the main host routs the Chariots in their eagerness to kill usually spread out further ahead and get a javalin in the back.

I've tried modifying orders and positions in order to try to minimize their combat but got variations of the same results. I think this comes from the way the chariots trample, the first trample they tend to trample out to an edge of enemy troops (north or south), then next turn they trample in and forward and their movement stops them in the middle of the enemy because they run out of movement points.

The Chariots don't get fired on when using masses of Cardeces, but Cardeces have a very high attrition rate.

Edit:
This may be my fault. I might be using too many Peltasts so the ones in the rear of my column always have ammo to fire. I may have better results with having less when utilizing Chariots in order to minimize having a 'backlog' of PetLasts in the back who have ammo.

[ February 17, 2004, 09:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was usually using stacks of 8-15 riders accompanied by 1 commander (filled with items).
You can target archers with them as well. Basically I would usually give them hold and attack enemy archers or hold and attack rearmost units order. That way most of heavy infantry troops would move forward and away from shooters which would get killed or routed as soon as my riders move in. If you can't kill or rout those archers fast they you are probably attacking too large force.

They aren’t a force to single handedly take out enemy main armies, but to harass enemy territories while your main armies push forward. The thing is that enemy must catch them with significant force if he hopes to take them out which is very difficult in both MP and SP games.

Of course there can be other tactics for them as well. You can use Water 9 pretender and boost their already impressive defense (+ give them 2 strikes every other turn) and use them as support troops for main armies that would fight enemy HI.

Or use Cyclopes with earth 9 to give them +4 protection and make flying tanks out of them.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

Did anyone try mixing chariots with bows and peltasts?

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you use them for the equivilant of a Caelum Drop Squad (3 Mages and some Guards).

Unfortunately in my experiments even if you only pick up 10, (1250g) and a decently equipped commander they don't stack up very well.

Though you may be right, usually a core of ~30 archers will kill them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course not, but a good comparison for them would be Valkyries, or would you disagree?

Valk
60 Gold 12 Resources
Hp 13
Prot 13
Morale 12
MR 14
Enc 5
Str 11
Att 13
Def 15
Prec 13
Mv 3/11
Stealth +25, Flying, Glamour, Sacred
Spear, Chain Mail Curiass, Helmet, Round Shield

Wind Rider
125 Gold 35 Resources
Hp 13
Prot 17
Morale 14
MR 12
Enc 5
Str 11
Att 12
Def 16
Prec 10
Mv 3/22
Flying, Sacred
Lance, Spear, Hoof, Bronze Hauberk, Full Helmet, Round Shield

Did I miss something or were the positive changes (In Bold) worth double the resources and gold cost of the unit? The ones in italic are the ones that are negative from the Valkyrie.

I agree it should be more expensive, but I don't know if quite to that extreme.

Edit:

And Wind Guide and Archers works on "Fire Fliers" like a charm. Even while they are waiting to charge. More significant with Flaming Arrows (common) or xbows (common).

[ February 17, 2004, 09:31: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is exactly it! Same tactic I would use as Caelum. Only with Arco I get much more ground troop choices/power.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the difference in protection is not so small (difference between light and medium infantry) so it justifies resource difference. They do get initial powerfull strike with lances which makes them much more devastating on their first attack comparing to Valkyries although Valkyries have glamour that gives them sort of 'mirror image' protection.
It's quite valid question and I'm not sure if they really should cost so much if you compare these units alone, but I think developers took into account overall unit strength for both nations. If you compare what Arco and Vanheim have at their disposal you will see that Arco has significant advantage in choices/power comparing to Vanheim in both magic and 'might' (most of them I already mentioned in initial post). It’s probably a global picture where Vanheim is given advantage of making more cheaper sacred units to make up for other disadvantages. I do believe that giving Wind Riders cost less then 100 gold would make it unbalancing - that protection and powerful first strike is significant factor and if Arco is allowed to build Riders in great numbers they could simply overwhelm large armies.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You will not use Riders to attack that force so I assume your Riders will get attacked.
That requires that enemy gets both fire and air mages to attack them and bring a significant force of archers/crossbows with them. Like I said, not easy to do since they will rarely stay still in same province and as flyers they have lots of optional destinations.
Additionally, you can bring a wind mage of your own with them to cast Arrow Fend on your archers and solve the problem (if Riders are defending they get to do it first!).

[ February 17, 2004, 10:07: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

Hmm. 17 over 14 protection, not enough to really mean anything in the face of crossbows, certainly not magically boosted ones, though nice in extended melee combat.

On the other hand, the lance attack is a significant advantage, when using massed wind lords, as it is an almost guaranteed kill in the first combat round for each wind lord against most opposition. Good for clearing some space.

If I were a 1-1 comparison with the Valkyrie, I would probably still come down on the "too expensive for the benefits" side. However, since I ought to be comparing entire themes rather than individual units, I will not do so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

With their relatively high cost, they look to me to be more to fit a role as support units used in conjunction with, e.g., massed Icarii, for a rapid reaction force with extra punch, or as a heavy flyer component with hold-hold-hold-attack rear in an infantry/chariot heavy army.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree totally. Vanheim has +5 Berserking Units, Vans, Javalin Units, a decent HI unit, powerful Earth Mages, Powerful (but expensive) Air Mages, Stealth Option, Sailing, Minor Blood Ability, Regenerating Shapeshifter ... etc.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is where I disagree. I don't think this particular theme of Arco (even losing their Elephants and getting the Chariots instead) is drastically overpowered to Base Vanheim (even if you adjust the Pegasi), I actually consider them on equal footing.

It has no hoplites, it has no hypsists, it has no elephants, it has no Astrologers (thus making less of a Astral killer and Gateway nation). The forced sloth creates a sort of imposed balance of production that Vanheim doesn't have. The Mystics are more versitile but I consider the magics between them to be fairly equal. Better research with this Arco in the Philosopher, neat ability in the Skeptic, and interesting potential with the Engineer.

I wouldn't say drop the price comparable to Valkyries, but not at 125 Gold. They already have a Dominion Requirement (High Dominion to create more per turn) and a high resource requirement (I doubt you'll run out of resources before money).

Even at 100 Gold it would make them 1/5 cheaper and still make them a significant investment. 125 is just too much even for making your own little shotgun squad.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was trying to illustrate how fragile, especially in the early game, that your force of high priced superblessed Wind Riders could be easily killed by a bad choice or significant forces. You could easily buy 120 Archers for the same it would cost you 10 Wind Riders. I'd assume most know that there are no one tactic that will beat another because of the game ;P An easy enough way to kill Wind Riders would be to just use a Wrathful Skies combo on them, or teleport/trapeze a SC on top of them. But that doesn't mean they are useless, only that there are counters to everything.

[ February 17, 2004, 10:35: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would use them mostly to break a dominions wall (high dominions levels are very nasty to bring down), by sending a distant spell summon, like call horror, hords from hell, arouse hunger, to kill the PD whilst I move the septiks into the province.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am assuming you wrote those as advantage.

Javelins and stealth are available to both nations so its not really advantage.
Blood is hardly an option since all blood 1 mages they can buy are VERY costly (280 and 380 gold). I seriously doubt that few mages you can afford for Vanheim would be used smartly to capture few blood slaves each turn instead of leading armies, searching, researching and casting rituals.
HI of Vanheim is nothing to write home about. They are basically on the same level as HI you can buy from independent provinces. Wouldn’t call that advantage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Flying is clearly more superior to Sailing ability.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vanheim is limited to Air and Earth in main theme and requires significant gold to make enough mages to cover other paths of magic (mages get only 1 random pick and cost a LOT with the exception of Dwarven Smiths). Compare that to Mystic who gets 2 astral + 3 random picks for a price comparable to smith (180 gold). Add to that fact that Astral is better and more versatile choice then is Earth or Air (which Arco also gets. In fact they get Earth and Air gems at the start) if nothing else to paralyze, mind burn, enslave, destroy undead, dispel enhancements (I wouldn't wonna be Vanheim when BoT is cast), buff troops (Body Ethereal is nice on Wind Riders), find ALL magic sites, ... and see what Vanheim is missing. I would hardly call that even.

OTOH Priestess are enough to tip the scale in favor of Arco alone. The fact that you can heal your troops, get level 3 priests, and nature support mage for only 110 gold will SAVE you a lot of gold playing Arco. While Vanheim troops get afflictions in battle and become more useful as meat shield you can heal your own troops and save a lot of money that way. They shine mostly when BoT is cast or fighting against Miasma. Bare in mind that no other nation has access to healing troops like Arco has.

So, to sum it up, we can agree to disagree as I stand in my view that making Wind Riders cheaper would make Arco unbalancing overall.

EDIT: typos.

[ February 17, 2004, 13:34: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Where does Arco have Stealth Troops? They have stealth commanders, but I don't quite see their stealth troops. Or do you not consider stealth Vans and Valks to be any sort of advantage.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The option to utilize it is there. I said minor ability, there are instances where if you use scouts to blood hunt, you could take advantage of blood. Whereas Arco doesn't have the option. It's about versatility for a situation.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well they have the option at least. GE doesn't have the option unless they use Indeps. And Einherese are very nice.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is a commander that lets all your units fly even if they don't? Which one is that? Because Sailing allows that, which while not on the same level as a SINGLE flying commander, Valkaries fly and if you equip a commander with a flying item, are just as good as the inherently flying commander. Considering that you can't bless your Wind Riders with the Wind Rider Commander, but have to use a Flying Priestess, I consider them on equal footing except that Van can sail if the opportunity presents itself.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes the Priestesses and the ability to heal any affliction, disease and having someone who can cast protection is something that Van does not have access too. But it hardly catapults it ahead of a Van nation with 3 Productivity, 3 Order.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well it's hardly a surprise that you feel that way as you more than likely said you liked the current system or suggested it when you were beta testing it. However others are entitiled to see flaws in your argument. Which I do. The Wind Rider would be no more abusive if he cost 100Gold or 110 Gold. It's not as if suddenly that extra 1 for every 4 Wind Riders is going to throw balance completely out of the window.

But seeing as you can't see the possibility then there is no reason to discuss it further.

[ February 17, 2004, 18:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You said stealth OPTION not troops and stealth commander that diminishes your domain is quite an option - even more so since a single commander is harder to spot than stealth army.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reason why scouts can be used is because they are cheap and can be equipped with cheap items. You don't use 380 gold commanders to get same results. Well maybe YOU do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">GE doesn’t have HI???? They have BETTER protected HI and can use same quality HI from independents, which gives them 2 options as I see. Vanheim are pretty much stuck with one type and that type is barely HI considering that something below 15 protection would be Medium infantry.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This 'point' is the reason I still reply to this discussion. First of all GE has 2 commanders that can fly so why would they ground commander??? Items that you can build quickly or cheap let your commander alone or just a small group of troops fly with them and there is only one unique item that allows you to fly your entire army with them. I need only 1 flying item to bring my priestess with them and it can be made quick and cheap enough (at least for Arco). There is a BUNCH of cheap items that allow you to increase a number of units you can command if you really need to.

I can't believe that someone would even argue that sailing could be EQUAL to flying. Think about it, that isn't a matter of opinion or experience but single fact that you can move 3 territories on map ANYWHERE and GE has means to do so while sailing allows you to cross ONLY 1 sea territory. Geez.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vans don't NEED 3 productivity for anything else then gold because their units cost much more gold then resources (with the exception of their "HI"). Turmoil scale 1 is not so much of a disadvantage and you can beef up other scales with spare design points or use high admin castle. You are making it sound like you MUST have 3 in production in order to win a game. Priestess is much more worth it in my experience, but as you said it, you are entitled to your own opinion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't have to agree with me bout you do have to respect other peoples opinion as well and, beta tester or not, am entitled to one as well. And just like you may see flaws in my argument I can see flaws in yours so that is why I said to "agree to disagree" and don't see a point why you drag this as dead cat around.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here you say that change in gold cost for Wind Rider is so small that it wont change balance. Then why should there BE a change in cost?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On that I agree.

Edit: Typos.

[ February 17, 2004, 19:14: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

Just my uninformed 2cents.

Valkyries mmake Pegasus rider look overpriced.... Well if they meet in battle on a 1 to 1 basis , who will win ? here I bet for the pegasus higu protection and lance.

If they meet with a budget of 1000 gold who will win ? is it unbalanced ?

Guess the answer about the price question lie in here.

About Chariot, will bow mixed with standard fire during the hold and attack sequence ?

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On that i agree. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The "discussion" has devolved to thinly (or not so thinly)-veiled mutual insults, and each of you continues to try to have the final word. Not very mature.

Both of you have some valid points. Please leave it at that and do the rest of us the favor of not trying to beat the other over the head with them.

Thank you.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a hard time believing that you can easily spot Van's or Valks sneaking or hiding. But your experience my differ. Stealth Troops are a very real backdoor threat, but maybe not in your playstyle.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since when do you have to use a Vanderott? But as is obvious, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because it does, it just has a minor application.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This doesn't seem to be impacted by Forced Sloth, though?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said it was equal to flying, only that Sailing was a benefit for Vanheim. It was you who said Flying was better than Sailing, as if it was the discovery of the light bulb. It only allows you to cross 1 Sea Province, but that can have an impact in game, and you are not required to have all your units have the ability only the commander. And it still doesn't change the fact that you have to use a Priestess to fly if you want to bless your troops.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree the Vans don't need the productivity, but the Nation uses Productivity. Which not only includes Resource bonuses, but also gold. Sloth 1 (Not Turmoil, typo) allows you those design choices because of points, but it also limits the production of your nation. I agree that Priestesses are much more worth it than most other units. But it's not just the Priestess that makes Arco powerful, it's the combination of the Priestess and Mystics.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because the only way to show stubborn people things in a different light is to argue with their points. Otherwise we'd have a game regulated to playing just Pythium.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because of the game mechanic of coming up with the gold up front for purchasing. If you could put Wind Riders on "Layaway" or even have a 1 turn hold on resources or gold, the situation would be different. But as it is now, the way the buying of troops is implemented, the gold cost in terms of 'a big chunk of change' is a factor. Making it 100g would be less of a bite and more use for a bless strategy. As of right now there are very few reasons to even play a Bless strategy because of the limitation of Pretenders, limitation of Dominion, limitation of scales, and limitations of good things to bless.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately I must drag the dead cat around and yank on it's tail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The lance is usually wasted on the mirror image. on 1 on 1, I believe the Pegasus does 99% of the time, unless they get unlucky on their attack rolls.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Valkyries win every time, defending or attacking. But this is hardly representative of the Peggy's strength, which is quick routing. On units with less morale it has a greater impact.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If they are mixed with units that have a missle weapon. Like PetLasts. This is a good way to increase the morale of the chariots by squad size since you can have masses of PetLasts.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Glamour ability works best when moving in friendly provinces and yes, they are different.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not nearly as you seem to imply. Note that if I want to build infantry units like Vans, I will build them in several provinces at once and still be able to use resources from my castles to build different units.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes you did. You don't need to bless your troops to make flying better. I'll try to ignore the rest of insulting comment.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seems that calling names has kicked in. Stubborn person is the one that would stand by its opinion even if there are no arguments to back it up. Calling someone stubborn because he doesn't agree with your point of view is rude if nothing else and shows lack of arguments in other areas. I have tried to discuss this in civilized and argumentative manner and perceive this as a spit in my face. I will not sink to this level of calling names so this is where this discussion will end.

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the ... Stealthy +25 ?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, maybe that could be percieved in a different language, but if you choose not to bless your troops you don't have to make any adjustments (meaning get a flying blesser). Though I see this as counterproductive, 5 Air Gems to make a commander flying is hardly overwhelming, especially when Vanheim has an initial air gem income.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't calling you stubborn, but as a general statement. If I intended to insult you I would have done so as you did. If you feel that arguing balance and someone standing their ground based on whatever argument is presented (whatever the issue may be) and your stance reminds someone of being stubborn is an insult, I doubt anyone can argue with you at all without you feeling as a spit in your face. Unless of course you stop debating when you can't win and never have to come to a stalemate.

If it's not apparent, I do respect your views and have tried to see them in your light, but I cannot agree with all your points which is obvious. What is rude is assuming that your experience overrides any and all experiences of all others to the point where you can't have a discussion or argument about it, because you feel any counterpoint affects you personally since you worked closely on the project or aspect of the project.

That would be like me saying it's an insult to me for arguing my personal like for America with a French individual who did not feel the same way and him calling me stubborn because I don't see his PoV. I personally don't consider that an insult, I consider it a firm stance based on my own opinions and PoV.

Not everyone is trying to beat your baby when they don't agree with it.

[ February 17, 2004, 20:49: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Era Discussion
 

I played this theme Last night, against all the AIs, minus Ermor and Jotunheim (because I didn't want them to get the Utgard theme) on Orania with 9 indeps. I picked 3 order, 3 misfortune, the requisite 1 sloth and 3 magic, along with a bunch of Earth magic for my Cyclops pretender and a not too strong dominion. I couldn't spend all my money fast enough, so I bought lots of mercenaries, spread out pretty fast, spread my dominion like mad, built up some of my Dark Citadels at the outskirts of my little empire, and had my billion or so cheap researchers go all out towards the Riches from Beneath (not sure if the name is right) spell, to improve my productivity. Soon, within 40 turns, I had my Dark Citadels producing Myrmidons by the swarms, had Marignon and Tien Chi dead and had Caelum and Ry'Leh on the ropes, and had a big ol' stream of research. Then Abysia and Pythium brought me down a few pegs. Now, at like 80 or 100 or something (it was 4:00 AM when I stopped playing, a bit hazy) I had three research paths to 9, most others to 4 at least, summons out the wazoo, Kings of Earth Elementals slaughtering everything in their path, being decked out in an absurd amount of equipment from my Mystics and the Forge of Ancients spell, and was steam-rolling everyone, with way more money than I can spend. Seeing as how every game except one up to this one, I lost, (and that one game was really hard and into 150+ turns on a small map)and I'm freakin' annihilating the enemies right now, I'd say this theme fits my playing style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Although I haven't used the skeptics as often as I thought I would . . .

The Myrmidons are very strong. I like them a lot. They form the core of the army. The wind riders seem to me, as mentioned by a few, as sorta useless. The chariots do well against weak indies in bunches, with some fodder elsewhere for the arrows.