Question for the Developers?
 

First I would like to thank the developers for creating such an in-depth, intelligent, entertaining game. In these days of shallow eye-candy games that are mass marketed this has been a breath of fresh air.
I have been computer strategy gaming since the days of Empire on my University's mainframe. I have watched the strategy gaming industry go from hard core strategy games being the main stream, too now when it seems that we are a niche market. My question is - Has any larger publisher/developer approached you guys on developing this game further? While I have no problem with the graphics and interface, the sad fact is that the larger market seems to expect eye candy with thier strategy games. I believe if you two were given an art budget and marketing budget of a games like Age of Wonders or Civilizations you would captivate the Strategy Gaming industry. Heck I am so impressed with the potential of this game that I am thinking of selling my business and home and giving you the money myself lol! I am not sure if Shrapnel games has an Art group or if they even get invlolved with development but someone sure should. If no one has approached you guys yet it just reinforces my suspicion that the gaming industry is being run by over caffinated 14 year olds and marketing mental midgets.

Great game guys keep it up!

[ February 17, 2004, 17:12: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

No big publisher has shown any interest. When dom 1 was being released a few major publishers were approached, IIRC most of them did not bother to answer.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you checked with Strategy First since the reviews in CGW and CGM?

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

I am curious, I know you two do this as a side job. How much of a budget would you need to say quit your day job and hire a few artists and maybe some office personel?

Was the game engine written in C++?

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you checked with Strategy First since the reviews in CGW and CGM? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember that a big publisher also typically means an even smaller share per sold unit to the developers. Unless you can count on massively increased sales, going to a big publisher can actually end up costing you money despite increased market penetration.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember that a big publisher also typically means an even smaller share per sold unit to the developers. Unless you can count on massively increased sales, going to a big publisher can actually end up costing you money despite increased market penetration. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on whether the publisher is willing (unlikely as that is) to front the devs some money to improve their product(s) and/or to develop new products. If not, then there's no upside to dealing with a bigger publisher, IMO.

I asked the question out of curiosity only, not as a suggestion that they should vigorously pursue.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

Actually I think small publishers like Shrapnel Games do a great job of supporting thier developers (Where more of the money goes back to the developers where it should!). What I think Illwinter needs is to develop this full time and with some help. It is amazing that they have pulled this off doing this part time. Could you imagine this game with them doing it full time with a small staff helping them??

[ February 17, 2004, 17:48: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

Amen Pirate, amen

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

There are other distributors out there who are better to deal with.

I would say my first pic for Indie game distribution would be Matrix games. They have established themselves as a quality outfit.

And D2 would complement their theme/genre direction very nicely.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It amazes me that so many people think this is the way to make money. Large publishers don't pay great royalties. I designed and developed 5 games at retail with large publishers. Space Empires IV has earned the developer more in royalties than I made off 5 games through large publishers. Dominions II is on that same track. That is why I started Shrapnel Games - so developers could make money.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh so true. The truth is, to get Dominions II the numbers at retail to make even the kind of money we pay would require the game being 'dumbed down' - it's 'too' much of a strategy game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most definitely they would. This is how they make sure they own the code and don't have to pay large royalties. Of course they would ask for less depth too.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then why are so many of their developers jumping ship? The ones that have contacted us haven't even received royalty payments on time and have said they would never do another game with Matrix. Are you a developer with them? I would like to know how you have this knowledge.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

I'm all for Shrapnel Games, myself. This game, aside from the graphics (which are functional and pretty decent in that respect but not Halflife 2 by any means) doesn't feel independant. I think a game such as this would not do well on the big market. Europa Universalis got a sequel, which is an absolute blessing IMO, so I'm thinking it sold OK at least, or had very low costs, since it was essentially a translation for release over here in the US, but I'm not sure how much the developers got out of that. Besides, the documentation for that game was awful, the packagin unimpressing. Post release support has been pretty good, though, which to me is important. A lot of developers stop getting paid for the product after they end development, and aren't paid any more for patches. This game feels like a work of passion, too.

This hasn't been the most coherent of Posts, but hey. If it works for them, cool, because as incredible quality games like this one keep coming from ol' Shrapnel games and the games get coverage from various media, perhaps Shrapnel's business model will be seen as viable, inducing more indie productions and more companies in the field.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

Tim,

That is interesting to know that developers are jumping ship from Matrix.

I did not know this and have based my opinion on the quality of Matrix from the viewpoint of a consumer and also from chats on their forums (which may have been more pro-Matrix for obvious reasons...)

Well, if they are all jumping ship, maybe you can send a press kit to the folks still on their roster? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I don't know too much about how you run Shrapnel but it sounds like you care and are a gamer as well as a businessman. Passion for the industry is all I can ask for and I'm confident that combination will deliver a superior product at a good price and I'll be happy and the developers will too!

Good luck and here's to all the success you can eat.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Pretty Good"??? Paradox is still releasing patches with feature upgrades more than two years after EU2 was published. That is not just "pretty good", that is exceptional. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

Hmmmm wonder if we can get the Shrapenl folks to talk to the Stars folks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

It's been two years? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Yes, I change my response after that. I didn't realise I've had that game for so long . . . wow. Where has the time gone? Yeah, I was still in high school when that gaem came out . . . yipes.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it is because the game is the favourite hobby of the Paradox lead programmer, Johan Andersson. Whenever he finishes another project or goes on vacation, new patches seem to magically materialise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's too bad that none of these patches have ever addressed the fundamental weakness of EU/EU2/HoI: a monumentally stupid AI. Dominions II AI is by far better, even with the spellcasting and shoot-your-own-troops flaws.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I have talked to the Stars folks. The problem is they need funding, and a lot of it.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I have talked to the Stars folks. The problem is they need funding, and a lot of it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well OK. I can understand backing off. Although they do seem to have a huge ready-made market waiting for them. Anyway, thanks for giving them a shot.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">EU2 runs real time with typically 40-100 different factions active at the same time, Dominions 2 is turn based with fewer factions and sometimes spends 30 seconds or more computing a turn on my 2.4Ghz machine. Guess which can allocate most CPU cycles to the AI? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The EU2 AI throws attacks at stupid provinces, repeatedly, often with too few forces, and when it has enough forces, it wastes untold number of troops to attrition. In comparison, the Dominions II AI throws attacks at stupid provinces, repeatedly, often with too few forces, and when it has enough forces, it wastes untold numbers of troops to attrition.... Hmmm. wait a moment... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

As for monumentally stupid, in my experience that is a label that one eventually, unfairly or not, tends to put on any AI as soon as one has learned how to beat it. I am still new enough to Dominions II, having only had it for a month, to be impressed by the fight the AI can put up - but I am already beating it on a regular basis when fighting against a full roster of "impossible" AIs.

That does not mean that the AI is bad - it just means that I am better at taking advantage of its weaknesses that it is of mine, and that I am far, far, better at projecting the long-term outcome of my actions than the AI is, but so what else is new? That is the case in all strategy games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

Peter,

I am loathe to debate the relative merits of another game's AI in a Dom forum but I feel compelled to point out why I consider the Paradox AI (which is pretty much the same in all games based on the EU engine) to be so stupid. The key factor is not in what the AI attacks, though even in that regard the Dom AI is far superior (and I've been playing with it for six weeks at 12-18 hours per day, every day). The true measure of an AI is in how well it defends. In this, the Paradox AI is one of the worst I have seen. And what makes it particularly annoying to me is that the user community has been pointing out the flaws for 2+ years and they continue to release new games that have bugs that were reported 2 years and 3 different games earlier. Paradox doesn't have the excuse that IW has in developing a game in their spare time while working on other jobs to feed their families. Despite this handicap, IW has created one of the best AIs in the genre. Paradox is either incompetent at this aspect of game design or doesn't care.

BTW, pointing out that the EU engine is realtime is meaningless as the AI can take as long as it wants per country. I play on a 2.1GHz system, but I have also played their games on a 350MHz (which is just above their minimum spec, FYI) and the game just slows down. It doesn't play "dumber" because it has insufficient time to do the same amount of calculations. Hence the flaw in your argument.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What flaw in my argument? I just point out that if you can allocate 30s pure processor time on a fast computer, and correspondingly more on a slow computer, because timing is not important, to calculate a turn result while only displaying a minimal popup and accepting minimal user interaction, you have substantially more CPU cycles to make decisions, simulate battles, &etc, than a game that needs to time-slice such decisions in real-time for a large number of factions while, at the same time, running the graphics engine and the GUI, which keeps a fairly steady flow on most machines.

That is not fundamentally a question of machine speed, it is a question of CPU allocation - and one of the reasons that comparisons between real-time and turn-based are often wont to fail.

[ February 18, 2004, 00:28: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

EU2 is a lot harder when you play as a single province nation with strong neighbors, preferably a vassal of someone too. And a lot more fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Although I always was ticked off when my friendly neighbors would have 50 troops in one province and, adjacently, rebels in one next to my newly conquered highly rebellious province, and then them letting the rebels take over before reacting and the rebels pouring over the border. But it was a good game, nonetheless, nay, a great game.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tim,

I do not think they need a big publisher (In fact I think your business model has great merit and have been watching and holding my breath that it will be succesful) but they do need development help (cash)to reach a larger market....but maybe the sad truth is that it would have to be "dumbed down" for a larger market. Since this is your business and you would know if anyone does is there larger market for games like this? Please please tell me that there is so I do not have nightmares of SIMs XXIV Miami Vice edition. Please tell me there is a future for intelligent strategy games so I can enjoy my hobby when I retire lol. It just seems that the pick lists for good strategy games gets smaller and smaller and if I see one more RTS (1.) gather wood, food and Iron 2.) Build big army 3.) click on enemy and send big army....wow strategy! <sarcasm>) I am going to S#$T!

By the way I think I played many of the games you developed. You wrote the code for Soldiers at War right? I still have that game today...hmmm I wonder if it will run on XP?? I really do hope that you are succesful and there is a future for this market and not just a bunch of old men trying to keep our hobby alive. Just wondering do you see young people (18-25) buying your games or are you just serving an established older market?

[ February 18, 2004, 03:41: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not with this level of difficulty. But you must define 'larger market'. If you are comparing this to what a really awesome FPS would do at retail, well there is no comparison. A good turn based strategy game would be considered successful with 35,000 units at full retail (in other words not discounted for the bargain bins or put out at $9.00 in a Jewel Case). An FPS could do 10 to 20 times that amount. And that is what a big publisher is looking for -those numbers in the 6 figures, not a 'measly' 35,000 units. And the reality is much worse with the 'average' game at retail selling under 5,000 units (and that counts in the 6 figure FPSs).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But that is exactly what a large publisher wants in a 'strategy' title.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not that one. I was just hired to do the original design. What it ended up being was quite different than I had envisioned.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes younger people buy our games, but not in huge numbers. I think that a gamer has to mature past the twitch addiction and start wanting to slow things down a little and think and that usually doesn't happen until most of the Console Generation reaches their 30's.

You know we have been in business now for almost 5 years. We are doing well. Our biggest drawback (other than the economy as a whole) is that there just aren't that many good strategy / wargames out there. We turn down alot that doesn't meet our criteria of being a 'game'.

[ February 18, 2004, 22:40: Message edited by: Tim Brooks ]

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. I've been playing what my brother calls "stare at the dot games" (VGA Planets) since I was 14.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

I've bought 3 games from Shrapnel and I have their Lock 'N Load bumper sticker on my computer case. It is the best publisher that I've ever dealt with as a customer.

Every time I buy a game from Shrapnel, I get a warm, squishy feeling because I'm helping to affirm to the world that games don't need to be on store shelves to be amazing.

Bigger publishers just are not worth it. That's the message that I'm sure the Dom2 developers already know.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

Thus is the need for truisms like granny used to use such as "better to be a big fish in a small pond than to be a small fish in a big pond". While everyones attention is in getting their piece of the big pond, there is room for someone who can work the small pond and do it well.

Yes the "strategy over pretty" might be a smaller group but I feel that Illwinter can grab more of that group then they could if they tried to pretty-up the game for the bigger group. Eventually that might be possible but not if they rush it. Rushing into that market would at best, make them average.

If the winnings were equal, or even slightly better, there is still something to be said for doing it your own way and with pride rather than selling for the masses. I get the impression that Illwinter made that choice long ago.
Just my humble opinion.

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

Tim thanks for answering my questions. Lets just hope that us big fish can keep this little pond full of good clean water. My Last 4 purchases have been from Shrapnel games, Battlefront and Matrix and I plan on supporting these independant small publishers fron now on. I just hope that Illwinter sells enough units so they can quit thier day jobs and do this fulltime!

Re: Question for the Developers?
 

I am afraid that there actually isn't a much bigger market for games like these.

The people who are interested in strategy games which are weighting in on the "deeper" side tend to know where to look for them (Shrapnel, Matrix and Battlefront come to my mind here) or at least know some forums were to look.

I think the little polls on these forums tell quite a lot about the people who are playing games like these (25+/male - no big surprise there).

Let's face it, we are a minority in times were instant gratification is the epitome of gaming.

CharonJr