Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

I had a small group of raiding harassers, led by my rainbow pretender, who managed to capture the enemy capitol and were causing chaos in it--I was Blood Hunting and Preaching like mad, generally just screwing up Unrest and such to harm the player while my ally mobilized his main forces.

Pretictably, the player starts moving all his armies toward the captiol province. Knowing I can't win, I order my raiding party to retreat into a province with only 5 or so enemy units, including a commander, in it. The blue line appeared and they were moving--this was a one-movement point action--there was no bold line between the provinces.

Much to my dismay, I get a message next turn saying my sieging forces were utterly defeated by a stronger enemy force! What the hell?! I told them to boogie on outta there! Did all of my armies' soliders spontaneously trip and thus lost their move for that turn, or what?

Note this happened the turn after we all patched--if it had happened in the middle of the game pre-patch or something, I would be a little more inclined to believe I missed some key rule about sieges... but we patched, and the NEXT TURN I get screwed over... makes me think it could be a bug?

(Just for the record, I was playing as Abysia, and was sieging Jotunheim).

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

According to the manual, movement between friendly provinces occurs before movement into enemy territory. Could that be it?

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

If any of the units were teleported or Stygian Pathed or Forest Trod, Gateway the magic phase goes before the movement phase.

Also as Demo said, friendly movement is before enemy movement, so you could have just picked a bad province to go into.

[ February 18, 2004, 20:33: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

UDH-
If you tried to move into an enemy province while an enemy tried to move from that province to where you were, the armies might collide such that one army gets pushed back and they battle at one of the two provinces. The chance of colliding is relative to the size of the two armies, and the smaller army is more likely to get pushed back.

And in my experince, you seem to be more likely to get pushed back in cases when you are sieging like that, but that might be just some random weirdness for me...

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. The attacker (whomever's Capitol you were besieging) was moving into an enemy province (the one with the capitol but controlled by UDH = "undead dolphin hacker"). UDH was moving *his* army as well into an enemy controlled province. The question is: which movement happens first? I believe (but would like dev/veteran confirmation) that the order is randomly determined.

i.e. bad luck for UDH

[ February 18, 2004, 20:37: Message edited by: pole_shift ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The order is random when doing movement phases. And George's answer my be true (though I have never had a smaller Army get 'pushed' around by a large one. Only Large on Large, never Small vs Large). Also there is the question if a Sieged Province is considered under control of the Castle owner or the Sieger for purposes of movement.

[ February 18, 2004, 21:32: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Aye, there's the rub!

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

The besieger. For friendly movement etc purposes.

[ February 18, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks Kris!

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

I see. So it was just a luck of the draw thing? My army was bigger than the Jotun task force (My 15 compared to their 5), but with such low numbers I figured I wouldn't "bump into" the enemy on my way out... I assumed he was moving into the province with all his forces, and wanted to keep harassing him by skirting away into more of his territory, but I guess the ol' Stars weren't in my favor...

Well crapola. My rainbow pretender is now completely worthless, right? Pretenders lose all their magic when they're Called back, yes?

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

Pretenders lose one level of power in all magic paths when called back. That can hurt a lot with a rainbow pretender, but he/she's not worthless after one brush with the big black.

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

Another sidenote to UDH-
I believe the size of an army for these calculations is based not only on quantity, but factors in the size of the units similar to breaching a castle. So Jotun's one unit will count for much more than one of yours, so it may not have been that unlikely that you got pushed back.

To KO-
Does that mean in a case when an army is moving off a sieged castle while the same enemy is moving back on to it, the sieging force always gets pushed back? If friendly movement is before enemy movement and the castle counts as the sieged armies force, then I am thinking it follows that the sieged team is moved in before the siegers can move out...? (Sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but this point could mean a lot someday!)

[ February 19, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: geo981010 ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

George,

I believe that is what he is saying, I just tested it to make sure now that I have access to a game and it works that way.

The sieged defender moves and 'Break Siege' after the Beseiger moves in new forces.

My question, though it should be logically answered is when you "Storm Castle" it counts as moving into an enemy territory whereas "Break Siege" does the same and is at the same time?

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Geo: Could you rephrase that?

Zen Storm castle takes effect after normal province movement both friendly and enemy. So if the player holding the castle move in an outside force that attacks the besieger the two forces (plus any units inside breaking siege) clash outside the castle in the ordinary combat phase, after that any remaining forces of the besieger that have the order storm castle have a separate combat phase after the other combats in that turn (assasination, farsummon or ordinary move province).

[ February 19, 2004, 01:28: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

Johan,

If the defender orders Break Seige, and the Attacker orders Storm Castle, which order is executed first?

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

Break siege, break siege and resulting combats take place at the same time as moving into enemy territory by ordinary means.

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

So Break Siege (and any other movement-induced combats) take place prior to Storm Castle. Good to know. Thanks.

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

IIRC storm castle is the Last combat possible in a turn.

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sneaking units can be discovered and attacked after.

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All non-friendly movements occur simultaneously, don't they? Which is why if you try to chase a unit you'll never catch him. I guess either someone magically transported in (would that result in a battle with just that unit since magic battles are resolved before movement?) or he got stopped by the small unit moving in (There's some kind of check when two armies collide with a result of one or neither getting stopped?).

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It started with Demosthenes:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then Zen asked
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And KO answered
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, so assume that Abysia is sieging Jotun's castle at province A, and tries to move to province B that Jotun owns (no storming, just moving). But Jotun has an army that moves from province B to province A on the same turn. So that means that the Jotun army moves before the Abysia army does since that is considered friendly movement? Normally there is the collision and pushback chance when two armies move at each other like this, but with the above quotes I am wondering if this is a different case...

[ February 19, 2004, 03:49: Message edited by: geo981010 ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

Your two armies move at the same time.

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

The Jotun does not move before Abysia. This is just a normal case of two armies moving into unfriendly provinces, with chances of pushback etc resolved in the normal way. Abysia controls the besieged province A, Jotun province B. Jotun does not move into A before Abysia, since Jotun does not control A, Abysia does, Abysia as teh besieger controls A. If Abysia Contolled a province C, Abysia could move from C to A before Jotun would have a chance to attack, whether from neighbouring province or through break siege.

[ February 19, 2004, 10:29: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Just got smoked in a combat that I *thought* wouldn\'t happen--was this a bug?
 

Thanks JohanO for the clarification - rereading it now I must have misread KO's quote as saying the sieged province counted as being owned by the the besiegeD, not the besiegeR, which is why I was confusing myself. Sorry for the confusion!

Interesting that although it counts as the besiegers province for movement purposes, that it counts as the besieged province for the check if a nation owns no provinces and loses. The AI often will have a large army trying to breach it's capitol's castle, and if you take out his other provinces he loses from not owning any provinces. Nice way to avoid fighting his Last big army, although probably a bug?