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Re: Knighst of Light mod
I like your mod, but I think that you made most of unit (especially infantry) too cheap - they have very good armour, morale, decent attack and defence skill - so I suggest you should make most of unit more expensive
btw why there are four masters - two on chariot and two on horse? In general - graphics looks great and I realy like climate of this mod. good work:) |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Black Moon Chronicles, right?
Funny, I had the same idea but alas, I lack the skills. Great. Thank you. I'll try it this weekend. Now... How about modding other nations to reflect the other main participans? (and my brain runs off...... now there was a mediocre but nice pc rts game based on black moon chronicles... mmh....I still have that here somewhere...made by cryo... what code did they use... mmh... this deserves deliberation) [ February 19, 2004, 14:42: Message edited by: Tricon ] |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
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The units should have decent armor and very high morale (for non magic beings), decent attack but maybe poor defence? High encumberance? Low magic resistance? |
Knighst of Light mod
Hi guys,
a few days ago I submitted a new mod, changing the Marignon people into an order of knights (not my invention, just to be fair - I based them upon a french comic). I won´t be able to check the forum very often, since I don´t have access to internet easily. But I´ll be able to check the forum from time to time, so any suggestion on how to improve the mod would be really welcome. I am going to submit a new Version soon (proper leadership values, 1 more mage, maybe a few other things). And I also have an almost ready second mod, changing Ulm into a dwarven kingdom. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Black Moon Chronicles, indeed! And I also had the game from cryo... Not too bad, but nothing special either (by the way, if you look for it, I think you can find it at the home of the underdogs website - I got the retail copy but that was a loooongtime ago).
About the unit cost: yes I was thinking about increasing the cost of the basic trooper from 11 to 12. On the other hand, they are already quite resource-expensive, I don´t want them to become unaffordable. About the graphics: yes I put alternative graphics for some of the units (marshal, masters), but the stats are actually the same. In this way you can choose the commander you like the most, or mix them. Maybe I´ll add some more. The graphics are in general a bit flat, but I´m not that good ad drawing, so probably I´ll leave them as they are. And if I have time I´d like to make a mod for the other nations of the comic as well (Knights of Justice, Empire and Black Moon), but well, that takes time... |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
I was very happy to see your mod... I'm a big fan of "Les Chroniques de la Lune Noire" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
This mod is quite excellent but I think too the troops are a little bit too powerfull or too cheap (I think a little less armor could do it...) If you plan to put another mage, it shouldn't be too powerfull as it's only a knightly order... But maybe you could add a Siege Weapon (their is many of them in the light armys in the comic). Maybe if you have the time you could do mod from the other "nations": - Black Moon (ahhh the black guards... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ) - Empire - Order of Justice - Hordes of hell - and why not the dwarfs and their weaponry... A "Black Moon Chronicles" mod... It would be great to play |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Hi Sube. I have tested/played your mod a lot in the Last two days (was sick at home).I love the comic, especially the order of light.
Overall, I'm thrilled that you put this much work into it. Now here are some minor tweaks and changes that may be worth a try... It's your baby so please diregard whatever you do not like about my suggestions. 1. The chariot masters have the same stats.(As do the marshals btw.) Is this intentional(just for the art?)Because with the regular units you have the cross w/circle as the elite. 2. Since these are elites, you should name the elites. 3.The masters should IMO be sacred. (it is arguable from the comic... but it would most definately fit to a order of light theme) 4.The armor/protection is extensive, but so is the price in resources... The order has the constant problem (in my games so far) that it relies heavily on independants as fodder. This contradicts the comic. While this always happens in Dom2 games it is almost a problem with OoL. No matter what I produce, even the cheapest unit (xbow) I cannot afford more than 5 or 6 of them. IMO the resource price should decrease for the smaller units by about 5-7. The encumberance by 1 the protection by 2-3 (maybe chain mail shirt instead of full chain... have't done the math yet- this is purely a game ballance thing, as a comic adaptation, your absolutely correct) 5. The (regular)chariot is mighty but overpriced.25/42 is more then enough, IMO. This would include a HP raise to 15 or 16. 6. The mage should have the regular leading abiltity of a mage: 10(see also Nr.11). The same goes for the archpriest (the text states him as old, venerable with no combat training, yet he has the same leading skill as a master?)The cost of these units should be decreased accordingly by about 10-20 gold. BTW is the relatively low morale for the mage intentional? 7. The masters leadership should be increased to 35. The resource costs should be reduced by 10. (I presume the riding master has more resource cost because the horse is armored? Otherwise it doesn't make sense that he's more expensive than a chariot) 8. The Archpriest research ability should be increased to 4 or 5. 9. As Dje la boutre mentioned, another heavy hitter might be in order. My personal favorite would be a siege tower (as in the comics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).The nice thing is that all it's abilitys could be copied with the Dom2 engine... . 10. Considdering the mighty castles/structures and abundant armors/weapons in the comic and game, it would make some sense gamebalance/-engine wise to include a special forger/stonemason unit with earth magic one or two. 11. IF you would add such a "mage/mason" the other mage unit should be toned down a bit, to one fire one random with the cost adjustment to 80/1. Mmh. All of this sounds kind of negative. Believe my I enjoy your mod. The tweaks go towards ballancing the great theme with the other nations in dom2. As i don't know your reasoning behind some of the issues ... it's almost impossible to be totally fair. On a side note: OoL is also the best crusader theme in dom2 so far.... this is a rough cut diamond, IMO. Hopefully some of the vets play it and give further ballance-tweak tips. Two thumbs up! |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Sube,
I really like your mod. Definitively a must see for anyone which read Black Moon Chronicles, or have the RTS game. I would like to offer some remarks too, taking into account what others have said also: 1 - The Infantry cost is low, but I think its a fair bargain, as the mage part of the empire is rather crappy. It reminds me of Ulm approach of having low cost units (10 gold for a 23 prot HI IIRC), but having un-versatile mages. If you really want to tweak something, just reduce defence stat slightly, but keep the cost. The problem of the OoL is the resources to build armors&weapons, and I like that. 2 - Dont make a cheap, resource-wise, unit. It would circumvate the bottleneck resource, thus leading to a rebalance of some infantries cost. The OoL infantry must be feared, and must be a very good bargain for the cost. 3 - I would had put one of each of the duplicate commander Category (marshal, master) as holy, and one cavalry too. Rise the cost by 50% then. 4 - a siege tower or other heavy hitter (catapult) would be an awesome idea. 5 - the arch priest should be raised to astral 2 IMO, otherwise he is really a mind duel fodder. I played too your mod in solo plays, and I really enjoyed the feeling it gaves me. Please do other orders, I find your graphics really cool. Thanks a lot for your contribution. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
I believe the Order, as it is, is pretty strong; the only alternative is that I'm getting much better at this game, and isn't supported by other games I played recently http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Compared to Ulm, the Order has access to strong priests, and that IMHO makes a big difference - Ulm has trouble using Sermon of Courage, while an Order of Light army can be accompanied by a level 4 priest for Fanaticism (and two cheap [indie] Astral mages will make the same Smite-capable with a Communion). The OoL Infantry is comparable to the regular Ulm infantry (not Black Plate): slightly higher resource cost, better stats overall. The gold cost is higher, but the gold cost will never be the limiting factor, unless you're buying lots of mages. The OoL infantry are slightly slower on the battlefield (except compared to some of the 1/5 Black Plate), except the Standard Bearers (who tend to run before the rest of the squad and get slaughtered by the enemy's front line - are they given the standard because they're too stupid to wield normal weapons? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). The Knights are almost identical to Ulm's Black Knights (1 less HP, 1 less Prot, 2 more MR, 4 more Def, Broadsword instead of Morningstar), but then the Order has the option of the cheaper Horsemen, and the Chariot, which is a fast trampler with good morale (especially with a few surviving standard bearers and availability of high-level priests) and excellent protection. Overall, I believe the Order has the upper hand on basic Ulm; not having the access to the Forging bonus is more than made up for by the better access to priests, and the higher gold cost of the infantry isn't really relevant. Still, they're a very enjoyable nation to play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
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The standard bearer running up front is a bit bothersome.And since he's meant to go with the troops, he should not be the fastest infantry unit on the field. MAYBE Pocus is right about the "avoid the low cost infantry unit". However I have not yet seen any reason at all to build the OoL crossbow unit(other than roleplaying, that is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). Considering how many fairly decent indie archers are around, combined with the good up front protection of the rgular units, there is just no need. Do you go with a woodsman archer at about 9/3n with 11 precision or 10/25 crossbow 10 precision one shot every other round even if it has AP? You need the resources for the other units. How do you other guys go about it in your games? |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
yes right, I was thinking 'do not add a cheap (resources wise) melee infantry, but you are right, the OoL xbows should perhaps not be armored, as there is no purpose in building them with so much resources intensives units.
I have edited OoL for my pleasure, but Sube is the creator. On the other hand, if we cant reach him with the forum, perhaps I can post my changes?? |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Hi!
Don't worry, I check the forum at least once per day, but Last week I was away on holydays, so I could do that only occasionally. Thanks a lot for your remarks! Version 1.0 was by no mean definitive, some play testing and game balance issues to solve were already foreseen. A few remarks: 1) Unit cost: I would like to keep infantry them resource expensive, they are supposed to be knights after all! But cost reduction for crossbows is a very good idea, balance wise. I had copied them more or less from Ulm (well, crossbow instead of arbalest, but more or less...) 2) Comparison with Ulm: that's a good point, something to think about. Is the OoL really much stronger? That's quite possible. On the other hand, when I play Ulm I heavily use Earth magic and Construction school (lots of Clockwork horrors and magic items), while this is completely missing with the OoL. But maybe it's not enough to compensate... A good issue to think about... 3) Leaderships values: yes they are meant to change, but I haven't downloaded patch 2.08 yet... But soon I'll upload the changes! 4) This idea of making some of the masters holy is tempting me.... I think I'll post a new Version in a few days |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
And, talking about Les Chroniques de la Lune Noire, for those of you who have read it, do you like the Last 2-3 volumes? I was a bit disappointed, I think that both story and art are not as good as in the first 8-9
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Re: Knighst of Light mod
I dont remember well the Last volume, as I blitzed through them (I got from a friend all volumes, and reread the first, got a bit bored, and discoverd the Last), but I concur that they were not that inspired.
Do you happen to be a french speaking person? I would like to launch a new pbem in march, and your nation will be one of the bad AI (the game will be called 'Between Hammer and Anvil'? I let you deduce where players start!! ). |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
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I liked the 10 and 11 except for one thing: Haazhel Thorn did resurect wismerhil again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif an impression of "deja-vu" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif About your mod, I like the units and the fact their is no basic/cheap units. But I still think after many hours of game that the ressource cost is a little bit high... Maybe reducing it by some points would be good (and why not lowering the armor by 1). And for the crossbowmen, they should keep their armor... as in the comic. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
After playing two more games with this fine mod, I must say the high costs are OK- except fo the x-bow, but I already said that. Scrap my idea about having a low level arth mage, that was just ebthusiasm getting the best of me. (Besides out of the dozens of mages i build for the OoL, about half of them got earth as random- another third got either fire or water, and i haven't seen ANY! wind or blood magic yet (and only one nature, I think. This is no problem, just a curiosity.
Another thing I noticed (but keep on forgeting to post): right now the priest of light and high priest of light(both non magic Users)require a lab to build , not a temple. I think this is a mistake. Concerning the comics... I haven't read numbers 9 and 10 yet. Up to that point it is... well basically my favorite fantasy comic. Looking at LotR movies, I sometimes wonder if Peter Jackson or some of his art team weren't influenced a bit... (Minas Morgul in particular reminded me a lot of a black moon citadel) |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Side note on MP. Played a quick hot seat battle against my wife. I played OoL, she played Abysia. It was a tight and ballanced game, which I won in the long run because I had two amazon provinces in my direct vicinity - so that I could recruit a lot of their very good mages - and a ton of their cheap sacred units.
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Re: Knighst of Light mod
lucky man to have a wife who plays dominions! Mine only indulge into rpg light http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I dont have the bug you mentioned with both priests... you wont get blood on a mage of light, as they have only elemental picks. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
"you wont get blood on a mage of light, as they have only elemental picks"
slaps head, well I could have checked that ... "I dont have the bug you mentioned with both priests..." Rally? That's odd. I have my game running in another window. Have a new built castle. Recruit new units. Go over priest and high priest of light and the text says: Lab needed. Right there. Strange. And concerning my wife. Yeah, I'm very lucky . She shares most of my hobbies. Though it took me some time to get her to play strategy games. Basically started with Worms Armageddon, went to some Boardgames (LoTR Risk,Junta MageKnight) then HoMM 3 and now we're playing dom2 and and MoO2 (basically because you can play all of them in hot seat). On the other hand she turned me to games like Poker(!), and (sigh) Myst. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (edit: oh, but to totally honest: Dom2 will probably not hold her interest for too long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . Though she likes the engine and the fact that you can recreate almost everything ever mentioned in a fantasy novel, she is a bit on the eyecandy side... But I'm not complaining!) [ February 24, 2004, 03:39: Message edited by: Tricon ] |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
This thing of the priests requiring a lab is definitely something that I have to check! I hadn't noticed it on my pc, however...
By the way Pocus, I'm afraid my French is quite poor, I can find my way on a french text, if given proper time, but I cannot really speak it. Too bad! So, I think I'll upload Version 1.1 in a couple of days, hopefully |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
I adjusted further my private Version of your mod, tell me what you think:
The charriot is too cheap, there is no purpose on building cavalry, so I raised the cost by 10. I renamed the holy masters (one of each is holy) High Master. The 2 upper class HI, I renamed them "Elite ..." Aside that, I made the modifications I spoke before too. Overall, the mod seems rather balanced. Do you plan to have cheap xbows, or a siege tower / catapult? |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
I think that is probably correct to increase the chariot cost, but maybe an increase by 10 is a bit too much? I'll give a try, probably you are right.
As for the crossbows, I exchanged the full chainmail with a chain hauberk, this decreases the resource cost from 25 to 23, if I remember correctly. I wouldn't like to go lower than that... And I have been thinking a lot about the siege tower, because I like the idea. But how could be that implemented? High hp and prot, huge siege bonus, but what kind of attack should it have, missile? Actually that's maybe not very important since you would use in sieges, and try to keep it out of battles. However, I have a doubt about the siege tower: ifwe give these knight also siege engines, wouldn't they get too powerful? How would you implement that? |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
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Or am I wrong about it? |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
About the siege tower:
- Fair to high HP 60-80? - Protection 6-8 or more (Depending on the time period, siege towers were armored and/or coated with a fire resistant mixture .. I do not have the name of it, though) - no defence - fire vulnerability - high siege bonus - low magic resistance - high morale - very low movement rate 1/3? - average precision - high cost (in gold.. I'n not sure if it can be considered resource heavy, but I leave that open to debate) - probabably an archer attack (historicly siege towers were obviously very seldomly used in open battles. Usually these towers were built near the fortresses you wanted to siege. The most logical use in an open battle IMO would probably be as an archer platform. There are some reports that the romans used siegetowers as quick and easy towers for temporary forts.) As for the chariots... well, I think the price is OK. They are mighty against independant militias and other light troops, but they have a very hard time against knights/heavy cavalry. Not to mention larger opponents like jotuns. Inmy current game perhaps the biggest advantage of the OoL is a fast early expansion because of their good armors. However, nothing that a SC cannot do for any other nation as well. Against other nations, like Man or Jotuns (current borders) they're strugling. The Knights/knights of avalon or niffel giants are powerfull morale breakers. But that's to be expected of them. main point is... right now I think the OoL is very ballanced. A new unit like the siege tower would not change that if it's uses are limited or counterbalanced by weaknesses. SP and MP has to differentiated here, IMO. A unit suceptible to fire is a definite weakness in MP games (considering all the items and spells out ther, especially flaming arrows). In SP the AI is not as "fire happy" as most players. Overall something that shióuld be tested in-game a lot. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
@Tricon : check the stats and the prices of the knight and the charriot. Now tell me why you would want to build cav, when you have a charriot nearly superior in every other aspect?
The (unarmored) Arcoscephalian Charriot cost 40. I dont think that 45 is too few for the OoL one. @Sube : I'm far from thinking that OoL is a powerful nation. The magic they can field is rather average, not to say poor. They are far less versatile that most other nations, and in the end, dominions is a game of magic (if you want to win). So dont be worried, you can still add a siege tower (or a catapult, to throw some boulders) without overpowering the race. If you keep a siege tower, I would give them a bow of war to represent the numerous archers they bring, but the price of such engine would be very high (if you add also, as you should, a siege bonus). Something around 300-350 gp... |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
@Pocus Nothings really wrong with the price, or maybe even 5 gold more... I rather think that the cav is overpriced a bit. The only reason for me to purchase cav (now) is the pretty good lance weapon/reach (but I'm at work now. ...I only know for sure that the masters have the good lance, I'm not sure about the cav)
On what do you base the price of the siege tower? 300-350 seems extreme. I was thinking allong the lines of 200 GP. but I haven't done the math yet. So it's an honest question. If you'ld be so kind as to tell me how you modded the mod, I'ld be much obliged. Did you just open the file with a text editor and changed the according lines? What is necessary to mod an existing mod? An as for the OoL being overpowered... I don't think so, too. They're somewhat dependant on a decent starting position (resources). Have no real versatility with magic, are very slow and fairly easy to exhaust on the battlefield. My next games will be against OoL... I'm sure I'll find some more weaknesses. Again: Thumbs up for this mod. My favorite so far. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Tricon: yes you open the .dm file with a text editor (I use wordpad), then you change what you like to change - in the dominions2/doc directory (if I'm not wrong) there are modding instructions.
And by the way I find cool the idea of giving defence 0 to siege towers, because it introduces interesting strategic elements. You'll have to move your towers carefully on the map, because they are extremely useful in sieges, but if the enemy catches them in a battle, then thanks to their 0 defence they can be easily dispatched - and bye bye to 200 gold! So when I have more time I'll start working a bit on the graphics. For the meantime, I have Version 1.1 almost ready: not many changes actually, only a few fixes and price changes which I still have to test. And I added another wizard, a lvl3 fire. Not yet sure if it's a good idea, I don't think it's going to give a tremendous boost to the magical power of the knights, the idea is that they should not completely suck at magic like in the present Version. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
AFAIK there is no possibility for now to mod unit bonus to siege or castle defense. That will make it hard to implement siege engines properly since they wont have bonuses in sieges.
Giving large strength for catapult or siege towers might do the trick temporarily as strength is counted in sieges/defenses but attack values should be low. Actually giving high strength and throw boulder ability (like the one Jotun's have) would make a catapult both throw them at large distances and usefull in sieges. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
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Rereading the comic got me thinking about the other major parties. How about we start a side discussion (either here or in a new thread) about what units each party should have, or the order in which we can "persuade" sube to do them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Not meant to really interfere with your baby, here... but it would be interesting to see nonetheless. ... One of the problems I see is how to differentiate Parcifals order from the OoL in a way that make sone play them differently. There are of course ´some major difference, especially in magnitude of magic used. From the art of the comic, one cwould assume that they are even better armored than the OoL and have perhaps even better elite troops, though far fewer in number.... But I'm getting ahead of myself here. So how about it ? |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
@Tricon : The cavalry is not overpriced by far, its a very good cavalry for the price. Compare the following units:
indep heavy cav :45 gold, 48 res to OoL cav : 42 gold, 55 res The OoL has better stats : 20 prot vs 19 prot 12 morale vs 11 morale 14 defence (!!) vs 11 defence so the problem is not in the hvy cav, but in the charriot : he has the same stats that the hvy cav, with even a 22 prot, and can trample up to and including cavalry (size 4), for 35 gold & 50 res. Thats why he must be costlier. I rised to 50 gp, and everything seems in balance. Please check the arcoscephalian chariot, you will see (and they are not armored). Siege tower at 350 gp : this is because I spoke of adding a bow of war to them, a magical item giving 13 arrows for each volley, so the cost... If the ST keep a boulder, as Sube wants, then 200 gp is a fair price, depending of the siege value. @Sube: Fire 3 for a mage is not that interesting IMO, perhaps you can add a mage fire 2, random (elemental) 2 (same pick twice), this way the OoL would be a bit more versatile, with a chance to get earth 2, air 2 or water 2. But its IMHO. Dont forget to change leaderships values, I gave a 50 leaderships to most military leaders, as the OoL is renowned to field large armies, poor leaders to mages, and 25 leaders to the 80 gp priest, as they are war-priests. Again, its a proposal, its your mod. [ February 26, 2004, 12:14: Message edited by: Pocus ] |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Sube, any update planned?
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Re: Knighst of Light mod
Bump.
I've finally read volumes 9 and 10 of the series. 9 was mediocre, IMO. And looked a bit "sloppy", for lack of a better word. Overall, I liked 10 though. My main gripe is that Haghendorfs army did not use any leviathans at all. Maybe a miscomunication between Pontet and Froideval. Pretty sad. |
Re: Knighst of Light mod
Version 1.1 up. Zip has same name as before.
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