Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

In our mp game, my peace loving Ashen Empire, which never attacks first, will soon be attacked by jotun, abysia, and maybe mariginon.

Attempts at negotiation have fallen on deaf ears, (or could it be the mere fact that my troops are all muttering "brains.." in the background? nah.), so some advice on who to atta- er, 'defensively advance' on would be appreciated. My limited intel puts abysia and then jotun as the stronger of the 3, with marigion a bit back.

Right now I have the usual massive armies of fodder, and death gem income of about 12 a turn.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Marignon is baaaaaaaad news for Ermor. Huge amounts of priests with good holy and fire magic = lots and lots (and lots and lots) of freshly re-dead corpses. Take them out as early as humanly possible. Jotunheim should be relatively easy for you to take on (well, as easy as fighting giants with human sized creatures ever is), since they only have 2 priests, neither of which is all that accurate and both of which are semi-expensive. I'm not familiar enouogh with Abyssia to say one way or the other.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Definately go after marignon as soon as possible. As zurai said they are bad news for undead.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

hmm, point taken. Is there any way I can destroy that Marginion holy site that burns my troops after I take the capital? Or do I just accept the fact that I will be taking casualities just by standing there?

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Snuff out Marignon as fast as inhumanly possible! I don't think you can destroy that site, but you can try to stay there as briefly as possible with actual undead.

If you can summon/hire up things that can't be banished, that would be best. Otherwise, do your unholiest to protect the undead you use, but don't count on any undead "survivors." Scatter some undead in front to attract inefficient banish attempts. Race at their priests with undead riders. Get things that fly, to go fly and attack their priests. Kill the priests and take their lands and destroy their temples, quickly. Blitzdeath!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

You can't destroy magical sites, ever. You might be able to preach them out, but with Marignon that's usually a bit tricky as well... of course, this all assumes they aren't using Diabolical Faith. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Abysia shares fire, astral and strong holy, but Anathemant Dragons are very expensive and their mages tend to be a bit on the imprecise side, and lack the national access to crossbows (flaming crossbow bolts are not good for undead!).

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

this is still early in the game, just about turn 30 or less, so I shouldn't have to worry about the dragons just yet. Mariginon, here I come!

Thanks guys!

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Incidentally, in such a setup it'd be sorely tempting to try to start something between Abysia and Marignon. For instance, if you can get a fire-3 caster (not exactly easy as the Ashen Empire unless your pretender has it; dusk elders only get 1 random, and even spectre randoms tend to be different) flame bolts at Marignon might be blamed on Abysia for instance.
In the high likelihood that you and Jotunheim both use cold, and both may use some undead, and both have reason to worry about dominance by fire/astral folks, an at least temporary partnership there might be appropriate.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On the other hand, if you CAN pull it off, that just makes it less likely that they'll suspect you. After all, Ermor isn't exactly known for its strong fire magi.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Oboy! Ashen Empire in MP is most likely the worst faction possible because of the age old saying "If facing many opponents, kill the walking dead guy first".

And you're up against Marignon as well.. While I'm sure you know what you're doing it might not hurt to make a few searches in this forum to find what have been said about the factions in your game.

Going after the exorcists might seems like a very good idea, but then again your giant and flaming friends are counting on you doing just that. You seem to have picked a game of polar opposites as far as factions are conserned. If at all possible try to worry less about the Jotuns. Their cold winter can be shrugged of with a rigor mortis grin. The eternal fires of Abyssia are not so easy to deal with.

To add what little wisdom I have I recommend you hurl a quality, not quantity, force into the oceans where you have a large advantage. Only Jotunheim can follow you there any time soon and that faction is very vulnerable to undead swarming, while the others are not. If you "devour", meaning you pillage them into dust, the oceans then you will have a nice amount of gold to bring some living units against Marignon.

[ February 19, 2004, 21:12: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry to discourage you - but you're probably doomed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . There is no peace-loving Ashen Empire while your dominions is killing the world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

You shouldn't attack Marignon. Rather, you should bribe him and lure him into a false sense of security, saying that he has nothing to fear from you - beacuse he's Marignon. Concentrate on Jotun or Abysia. But I suspect that he might not listen and would just join in the fun.

Marignon has powerful priests but versus Ermor Ashen Empire, there is nothing that can't be done by 10+ cheapo holy 2 priests. So, both Jotun or Abysia is equally deadly versus your force.

You only advantage is defensive. You land is hard to attack because of the lack of supply. So, you should go after Jotun or any one with decent access to nature magic, e.g. druids. Ghouls are your friends as they make your fortress virtually unbreachable. Use Bane Venome Charm and Black Servant. The charm can poison your attackers while it has no effect on the undeads. It's especially bad for seiging army as they have no where to dodge.

I don't think any diplomatic tricks would be too useful as they're not hard to see through. The only card on your hand is that you can drag any one of them down to dirt by pillaging, poison. Pick the one who initiated the alliance and make sure that he fears you in the next game. If you get lucky enough, the maneuver might be painful enough for him to back off and let you survive for a longer time.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Solid advice, Ywl. But then again it's the Jotuns that will be hurt the worst by Ashen Empire dominion considering the amount of supplies needed to keep the giants a threat. Abysia, with their resistance to the death scale, are more of a worry. Especially if they start bringing in bloodsummons to rip the frail ermorian commanders to shreds.

Too bad you're not running an AAR 1000yd Stare. Win or loose. It would be an interesting read. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True.

There are other tricks usable by Ermor but since Ermor usually has a slower research, I don't know how many can be used now without advance planning.

Turn 30 is probably just enough to get the research to level 6 in one of the paths... If there are enough death gems and Conjuration 6, cast "Spirit Mastery" and "Summon Ghost" (pretender need to have 7+ level in death for the latter to be effective). For earth income, "Clockwork Horror" or "Troll King" (expensive). For nature and access to druid, Vine creature. Winter Wolves are not bad if dominion is cold and plenty water gems. If you had Alteration 6, equipped the Dusk Elders, cast "Soul Vortex" and put them into melee combat.

Diversify.

The hundreds of soulless or longdeads are quite useless in a MP game. The only useful undeads are the Unholy knights, who are blessable and should have a lot of bonus from the pretender's magic. And the "Wailing Ladies" if there are enough gems. The ladies blessable, ethereal and their wailing is deadly. If there are spared Nature gems and the time, might as well give them "Gift of Reason". They're deadly with some armor and "Ring of Regeneration".

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

There are two spells that will turn a battle for Ermor, even if they are facing huge amounts of priests or anti-undead spells (Wither Bones, Dust to Dust).

Darkness and Rigor Mortis. Both of those spells affect anyone not undead (which are usually the ones trying to 'kill Ermor' because they are afraid). once you have those two spells in your arsenal, your attrition isn't quite as bad (with Darkness) and you can kill enemy mages by having backrow casters with Rigor Mortis they will eventually get to 200+ fatigue and die.

But even as there are those for Ermor there are other ones which will do masses of damage to them. But Darkness or Rigor Mortis is usually able to research one or the other by turn 20 to use in tough battles (as most players will mass one big force to handle 400+ armies).

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My dad always said that . . .

I've never done well with Ashen Empire. Soul Gate, yes, because of the nifty ethereal units they get, but my undead hordes always get obliterated by the priests of my enemies. And I play SP. Of course, usually I used a low-commander strategy, because I was a n00b, so if a banishment or two hits your Mound Lord with a bajillion leadership points thanks to the nifty items you've been giving him, those bajillion undead units you have all die very quickly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Well, after doing my turn, I must be doing something vastly different than what is being suggested here. I have, on turn 23, a total of 24 research points. No way in heck would I have been able to make it to conjuration 6 with my strategy of alternating dusk elder and archbishop purchases; instead I have covered most of the school's level 1 and 2 spells.
I think that I am concentrating more on the 'vast legions of chaff undead' than I should be.

Very illuminating discussion, much more than I expected.

As for an AAR, that is an intriguing thought, something I will put my mind to.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

24 research on turn 23 ??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Man, in a MP game you'll be soon dead rather than undead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
IIRC in my current Pbem game, playing Ulm, I STARTED with 20 RP or so with a RB. On turn 20 approx. I was already lagging behind the leading nations with maybe 50 RPs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ...

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Are you using drain scale? If so, it'd be hard to compensate unless you push for Construction 4 and go with cheap mages (spectators come to mind, as they can forge their own skull mentors and summon the next spectator as well, and don't cost upkeep or supply) plus skull mentors.
Archbishops are expensive. Unless you're needing vast numbers of longdead horse, you probably could use the research and other summons more.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's actually normal and that's why I mentioned that Ermor usually has a slower research. The reason is because in the early game, you can at most summon one Dusk Elder every two turns. Each of them has only 6 research points. Most players choose a Drain scale, which make the situation even worse. You pretender has tons of research points but he needs to split his/her attention on site searching, fighting and research.

It's probably a bit late but there are several ways that could have alleviate the problem:
1) Use a Magic scale. The MR of your undeads will be decreased by one but who care about them.
2) Skull Mentor. Go for Construction 4 quick. It gave you Skull Mentor and the Bane Venome Charm. Both are necessary for your survival.
3) Summon the less fancy undeads like Spectator and Acolyte. Spectator has death 2, enough to cast a lot of spells. A Spectator & a Skull Mentor cost a total of 20 gems and has 13 research points. Acolyte is half the cost of an Archbishop. They're less powerful but if it's ghouls that you want, two can summon more than one Archbishop - at least in Dom 1.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

I would recommend ignoring the Jotun and concentrating on the other two. There is a good chance that the giants will get bored and wander off after a while.

A few points to add to this illuminating thread:

- This is one of our gaming group's first attempts at a multiplayer game. Of the players, most have played no more than two "real" MP games, and one of us (Abysia) has owned the game for all of a week.

- Marigon, Abysia and Jotun have taken out an AI player each, so they are actually weakened compared to Dr. Death, who has been content with gobbling up the ocean provinces (Desert Eye, BTW) and the indies.

I challenge 1K_yrd_stare to write up an AAR on his impending doom. I will do the same as I bring the aforementioned doom upon him. It's not too far in the game to recall why you expanded as you did and what your decision process was like when designing your dominion.

[ February 20, 2004, 15:20: Message edited by: Unwise ]

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

I did go heavy on the drain, at least 2, can't recall right now.
I have been concentrating on undead horse, as well. My main tactic, probably well used by others, is a buffer line out in front of infantry (soulless, longdead, ghouls, etc) while the undead horse close in from each flank, attacking rear. Routing the enemy because I am on the flanks and rear and have caused 2 deaths usually saves my troops from being totally hacked to pieces, as has been the case with most of my encounters with Abysia.
As for you, Unwise_Jotun_Leader, my need for research ability might be easily gained by taking over that library of yours...

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

There there, save that precious hostility for the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It would be really great if both of you could make a small summary AAR when the game is over. It's only rare moments that I have time to play MP games so it would be neat to hear others experiences.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

In case you don't know yet, Ghoul is the only non-mindless low level undead. The other mindless undead count only 1/10 while defending a castle. You'll be seiged... no matter how well you play. Ghouls will be your life-saver in such situation.

You cannot reanimate under seige, but you can cast spells and "summon ally" to create troop. Something to pay attention to.

For the other players, so that nobody can blame us for helping only one side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . There is one easy formula versus the undeads: putting some cheap unroutable (Vine creatures, seasonal spirits), or expendable units (cheap archers) at the front while your priests behind actually doing the job. A 200+ undead army can be totally eliminated at no time. Also, a castle battle is deadly to the undeads no matter which sides of the wall they're at. The bottleneck stops their advance. Therefore, the priests can banish many before the undeads can even reach them.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Opening AAR to turn 26 follows (read between the lines for details, all numbers correspond to real stats):
--------------------------------------------
It is the 26th month of our Prince's rule. I myself have only recently joined the Prince; he understands the use of armies far better than
the arcane mysteries. For this reason, our grove was not established until after the falling out with the norse giants. Since then, our
numbers have increased each month.

We serve our lord in a capacity we are not used to, that of research. Some of use, however, are useful to our lord in other ways.
I myself have led a horde of half-men, half-fish for a time, watching remorselessly as those who did not sucuumb to the enemy fell to our
Prince. He knows well that in order to prosper, his realm must grow. We now march our armies over thirty provinces, counting among them two
fortresses and Marginon's capital, under siege by our Prince.Three months ago Malchaka fell beneath our onslaught, but the norse giants
took thier sacred home on the other side of the frozen mountain wastes. My prince was content with that, for the moment.

For we had stumbled upon the bloodletters, and crushed them in a swift campaign. Thier obsidian armed corpses rose to join us as ghouls as we marched south. We rudely surprised the hotones, who had just besieged the bloodletters home. Swiftly the hotones attacked, only to fall left and right to our relentless march. Only once were they successful, when a flying creature sneaked in to butcher one of our Mound Kings.

Thereafter the Prince ordered that all commanders should be surrounded by a retinue, and ordered his bishops to create special guardians; Lictors, so I am told. Shortly thereafter our relentless advance brought us to the Inquisitors; our advance armies barely noticed them, they were so weak. Our Prince, however, was not fooled. Forwarned by diabolical forces from beyond, he directed our armies to encircle this potentially fatal enemy. We concentrate, determined to enshroud the Mariginon Prentender in the cloak of death.

You may wonder why I am still alive. I wonder as well- for I have seen men fall three times as often of the pox and other illnesses than in
other lands. Magic is twice as hard to use; and I feel the slightest twinge of unluck in this barren land of still death. But there is no denying that this lands dominion is the most powerful there can ever be- tenfold over any of those squabbling independent states. You scoff, I see. You do not know the power of the dominion. For even now the hotones grow weak, thier field army inwreathed by my Prince's aura. Our spies report the destruction of their fortress, while their numbers have fallen by three score in a month.

The Prince? A strong arcanist, is he. Dabbling in Air, he is a seventh circle Astral and Death mage. Unfortunately, in his zeal, he has negelected the libraries in favor of the graveyards. We have barely scratched the first level of learing in most schools; and our leaders are more concerned with the horsement clattering off to war than trying to decide summoning or constructing paths.

Sometimes, in the few moments I am not chained to my reading stool, I dream. The Prince is clearly new to this realm, wrinkling his brow when trying to understand why magi cannot continously cast without rest. He is easily adept at the battlefield, manuvering armies back and
forth, and he has mentioned with happiness the lack of something called 'logistics'.

Oh, you wish to know why I am here? See those workers? Even now, as some of them drop from the scaffolding, you can see it take shape. A
vast temple, dedicated to the Prince. Only two provinces away the norse have attacked, treacherously advancing at our border fortress. This temple will help remind the giants that the Prince's shadow is long, as they starve in the desert, watching the horizon as the 3 armies
raised for this eventuality march to seal thier doom. Surely, the forces we bring are weak; corpses stirring in rusted gear, zombies and
ghouls. The vast legions of horsemen, while very mobile, are soon hurled through the sky by the comtemptous giants. But, for every bone
they crush, every dusty skull split, ten more rusty spears pierce thier cold hides. For the dead walk our realm, and there is nothing the
living can do but die and join them...

[ February 21, 2004, 01:50: Message edited by: 1000yd_stare ]

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">nice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

My Prince stands on a high mount, buffetted by the winds. Above him, the prize he seeks, and so richly deserves. Below, the abyss he emerged from, which did not let him go lightly.
It has been two months since I Last spoke in this tongue. Ask not why my voice is so raspy nor my breath foul; you do not wish to know of what I eat in my Prince's barren domain.
The frozen giants have been evicted from the Malachakan home; they promptly returned and dug siege lines around it. Do they think to starve my Prince's troops out? Even as they sit, the force inside grows. The shadows of my Prince will move among them, soon enough. The taking of the castle was a trival matter, as it happened on the same month that saw the Mariginon pretender die. More than three hundred of my Prince's brainseekers ringed the home of the Inquisitors; fully a third of them were horsed, and they were honored to lead the advance. They leapt through the gate, brushing aside the milita and a few odd humans with over-long spears; then they dealt with the crossbowmen. Outside, great holes were rent in the sea of undead. The Inquisitors had learned the rites of Banishment well, and although our Prince casted his own sorcerous protections and burned the minds and bodies of the enemy, he could not stop them all. Fully half of the army perished before entering the castle grounds.
Once there, they were greeted with a strange sight. A disembodied head, wreathed in flame, gouted fire at my Prince's minions, melting them were they stood. Those that were left struck the apparition, to see their tiny weapons inflict the barest scratches before they too were engulfed in the inferno. Relentlessly, the minions attacked, walking into a caludron of flame to hopefully scratch the pretender with thier rusted arms. Finally, the head gave a great moan of dispair, something I have grown accustomed to hearing, and disappeared.
But there was no rest for us.
Abysia stirred, perhaps by the entreaties of the Inquisitors. The smoky presence of a hundredfold army has just now penetrated into my Prince's domain. The hotones seek battle, but before we grant his wish, we will draw him in a bit more...make him hunger a bit more...make him weaker a bit more... make them come to my Prince a bit faster.

What of the land beyond the Barrier Mountains? Of the bitter fight under the seas, something my Prince calls 'Rommels show?' Of the death of the frost giants king? These I will speak of another time. For my Prince has learned that we can help more directly with his armies. He wishes us to swell the depleted ranks with those corrupted humans who still hunger. I must go, and deal with them- oh how I long for my days of reading the tomes...

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

Good Read! Well one human down 2 to go right?Abysia is the only one that has a chance to stop you.

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reason I said that is that if he took out the faction that is his biggest threat (Marignon - which should own Ermor) the only other decent threat to undead is fire - Abysia
I wish you luck and I hope you are pumping out priests like a chicken lays eggs!

[ February 21, 2004, 17:24: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

Re: Help!! I\'m feeling oppressed
 

What?

Ye have little faith. You can't count out the giants until the fat hag sings.