Major Disappointment
 

Two days ago I began a game set-up: Large, Cluster, not all warp points connect - so the clusters were internally connected but not to other clusters.

I am playing 1.19, non-mod. I made my race and then "upped" 4 of the computer races to use all of the 5000 points they had been given. Then I set it on: High (# of players) no neutrals, High (diff), High (Bonus).

It is now 2420.3 in the game and there are only 5 computer races left. So I decided to see their progress (I had not left my own cluster yet, but had colonized every world in it.) The results were confusing, frustrating and disappointing.

Only 1 race had moved to multiple clusters (the Xiati) and was the #1 player. The Xiati had colonized most of the planets in their own cluster and were currently taking over two more.

However, NONE of the races, including Xiati, had colonized all of the GREEN * planets .... they were just sitting there... Tech had been set to medium at the beginning and all the computer players had all 3 colony types researched... but in system after system the AI had ignored Green * planets ... !?!?!

Further, after the Xiait, only one other race had warped out of its own cluster.... ALL of the others hadn't even colonized all the planets yet!?!?! in their cluster... All of them had incredible huge green * planets sitting around waiting for them to use! Aaaagh.

The AI seems incapable of even routine tasks! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif This was a frustrating find for me. I like the thought of being able to build up a bit before facing a technologically superior foe... I will now play on connected systems so I at least have a challenge... but the AI should at least be able to colonize the planets that are the most beneficial to it!!! And be able to warp out of a closed system. It was very frustrating to see such simple things left undone by the computer...

I had the mods installed (mod-pack) but kept getting range and index errors and losing 20-30 turns... even when I saved often, it was frustrating. At some points the game would just hang or crash, which never happened pre-mod.

Please, I would love to hear any suggestions. Including how to install/tweak the mod?? (When I say that, I mean from new downloads... I am not a programmer, couldn't program to save my life).

Just needed to vent... I feel very frustrated after two days spent researching and building up (and watching the AI's tech levels outpace me by about 3 to 1)... but now realize there will be no challenge because the AI didn't even do the PRELIMINARY things right http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Jason2

[This message has been edited by Jason2 (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Yeah, Jason, the AI can be incredibly brain-dead in anything but a dead-stock situation, and it's not real bright even then.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

question: are they green from your or their perspective? like what atmosphere do they breath Vs the planets?

just a thought..

Re: Major Disappointment
 

What Version of the mod pack were you using? 1.00 did have it's problems, but they seem to have been ironed out now in 1.01, so if you don't have the latest Version make sure you get it!

I too find the AI pathetic in the un-modded Version. With mods it still has it's problems but, hey, it's still better and any previous 4x game!

------------------

"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: Major Disappointment
 

I have to say that even in "anger" the people of this forum are still professional. It is so refreshing to read your Posts and know that they are written by well intending individuals with a lot of talent.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Keep in mind, too, that SE4 is different from most all other games out there: We're not used to being able to customize almost anything we want, so we may not realize we can easily fix the thing that's bothering us!

Kudos to MM for a truly unique game.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Sun Devil,
I understand Jasons frustration. I was initially a little disappointed with the game but it has such potential. But I can't mod.
What I really appreciate is that there are people like you and Tampa and all the other modders out there who are willing to make the mods and give them away to anyone who wants them.THANK YOU ALL from a technically challanged gamer.
Being technically challanged I have lots of questions about installing the mods and which ones can be used with other mods. I don't know which forum to post them in, this one or the mod forum. Searching this forum is very time consuming. This is a big forum for a single game!
If you are offering to teach people how to mod I would give it a go. I may be challanged but I'm stubborn.
Thanks

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Jason2, could you post a savegame of this on the board? I would love to have a look into why the AI is doing what it does.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Nitram Draw,

Let me know what you want to change in the game. I will then tell you what file/s you want to look at and how to do it.

P.S. Don't forget about [K126]Mephisto as one of the modders, he is one of the people who first helped me start to mod.


[This message has been edited by SunDevil (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Thank you for the feedback.

Mephisto, how do I do that? Lol. I know very little about the computer except how to install/play games and word process http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif But I'd be happy to if you explain http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

And thank you for the answer about EA/1.01 http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Jason2

[This message has been edited by Jason2 (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: Major Disappointment
 

As we all thought, it was the "defence base bug". I have altered the files and all works now like a charm.
BTW: Jason2, be prepared to meet the Xiait battle fleet. They just opened a warp point and invaded your space. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Okay, I just have to say - THANK YOU.

This community is incredible.

SEIV (I had never played any of the previous ones) is easily one of the best games - it will be on my hard drive a looooonnggg time. I have a ton of games... and while eye candy is nice, depth is better.

Because of all you modders - the depth is getting much better (MUCH).

Mephisto, thank you so much. And thank you to the rest of you as well http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I just made my wife listen to how great this community is and the resulting better game... she dutifully listend (or faked it well http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif )

Peace,

Jason2

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Nitram Draw,

1.Go into your Space Empires file directory.

2.Go into the Date folder and open the text file called Components.txt

3.This file holds all components that are in the game. Facilities are in another file. If you notice on the top that there is a listing describing what each value represents and means. This will be very helpful in this file if you want to change other aspects of the components as well. Anyway do a search/find option for Quantum engines. You should go to Quantum Engines I, go to the line that says "Cost Minerals", and there will be a number following it. This is the amount of minerals it costs to build this engine. The default value should read 500. There is also a value for organics and radioactives as well. Keep those values above zero and probably below 65,000.

4.Make note that you just changed the first Version of the engines. You have to do the same for Version II, III and so on.

5.Congratulations, you've just modded. If you have any questions let me know. Make sure that you read the top of the file description before you change anything else besides the cost of the Quantum engine.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Despite all justified acclamation of the potential and customizability of SE4, let's not forget why this post was originally started: because the hard-coded AI is still utterly stupid !

Sorry to be a spoiler, but my feeling so far is that SE4 still has to go a long way until it reaches the (modest) quality of the AI even in MOO II. However, this is 2001, and it should be better...

Re: Major Disappointment
 

By the end of this month, SEIV should be a completely different game if you listen to what folks are saying about the new patch.

One beta tester commented on what a pain cloaked ships are. Another one described one turn in which the AI opened a wormhole into his home system and sent an armada of dreadnoughts through. Probably, the patch will correct some construction queue problems which slow the AI's ship production.

In another topic, someone suggested lowering the AI bonus in the new Version from the current 2x,3x,5x to something much lower if the AI turns out to be as tough as everyone expects.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

I think that people fail to realize that the Last patch was from 12/19. And since then there has been 113 issues fixed SO FAR in the upcoming patch.

If you have a problem with the game you have two options. Mod the game yourself and fix the issues, or what for MM to fix the issues for you.

If you want to learn to mod or need help, let me know, I'll help you or point you in the direction of who can. But complaining about how the game doesn't stack up to this or that, when its quite clear the game has been out for three/four months and this how the process is(patch/add to the game for the next year and half), I just don't understand the need to complain.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Well, the post was started because a bug prevented the Ai from building ships and units. I can't see how the AI of MOO2 could do any better then SE4s AI. Besides, I have watched the AI now for a looooonnngggg time creating my MODs and I cannot say that it is utterly stupid. What needs work is the script files for the AI that decides how the Ai will do things but the hard-coded AI is good when the script files are good.
Don't forget that an AI will not have the same insights as a human for a long long time (if ever).


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jowe01:
Despite all justified acclamation of the potential and customizability of SE4, let's not forget why this post was originally started: because the hard-coded AI is still utterly stupid !

Sorry to be a spoiler, but my feeling so far is that SE4 still has to go a long way until it reaches the (modest) quality of the AI even in MOO II. However, this is 2001, and it should be better...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: Major Disappointment
 

You are correct Mephisto. The ai is good as ai's go. The problem's that everyone have been seeing are symptoms of the construction bugs for the most part. Once that is cleared up, you won't notice as much what little issues might be left becasue you will be too busy defending yourself.

SEIII's ai wasn't genius, no ai that you could afford to put in a shareware or retail game really could be. But SEIII would keep you busy because it did a pretty good job of colonizing and building attack fleets.

I can remeber games where I could have several consecutive turns of 20+ ships fleets coming at me. It would get so bad that you would have to go on the offensive just to clear out all the planets producing ships to send at you.

I predict in another few weeks we will start seeing Posts on here looking for ways to beat the ai, not ways to make it stronger.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Sun Devil,
Thanks.
I would like to learn. I guess I should start small.
How would I change the build cost of the Quantum Reactor?
If you don't want to take up space in the forum e-mail me at JWARD11156@msn.com
Thanks again

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Would some kind soul give me a few tips on how to correct the defence base problem in my AI construction files?

Do you just have to take the Defense Base out of ALL the queues? Or, is there a way to take it out of the queues of just the planets that don't have space yards?

Thanks!

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Change Defense Base to Defense Ship. That should do it.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SunDevil:
Nitram Draw,

Let me know what you want to change in the game. I will then tell you what file/s you want to look at and how to do it.

P.S. Don't forget about [K126]Mephisto as one of the modders, he is one of the people who first helped me start to mod.


[This message has been edited by SunDevil (edited 08 February 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


id like to get in contact with you sun about a mod im getting redy to make... once my copy of seIV is in ...

i want to add race specific tech etc

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Phalen,

What you want to do takes a lot of time. You also have to have this all thought out before you attempt this. Not only do you have to worry about/add how your new race acts with others, but how/what it builds on planets, how/what it builds for ships, how/what it researches technology....etc.

If you want new technology/racial technology, you have to add the new technology to two different files at least. Then you might have to add components, or facilities to take advantage of the new technology. Which means you have to update the facility building/ship building files to take advantage of the new technology. This all adds up to a lot of work. If you are still interested let me know. I will still help you, but I will start off basic, not jump off the deep end, when trying to tackle adding racial techs just yet.

1. Making a race specific tech is a little shady, but you have two options.

1. You can make it a racial trait that has to be picked/selected at the game creation screen. If that is what you want, then let me know. It is a long process of doing it this way, because you really have to have a good idea already thought out before you attempt this method.

2. This the second method takes advantage of the games ai. The games ai only acts/researchs/fights what it is told to. The file called racename_ai_Research.txt file lays out the format and method of what the ai races research. When you make your race will just add the extra research projects to the file. But remember that human players don't need ai files to play the game, so they can also see the reseach projects you've added because, you also have to add the information to TechArea.txt in the data folder.

Modding is a little complicated, but once you understand how the files work, it will just be a lot of work changing and updating all the files involved.

Just remember, the current mods don't make any changes to the data files, they are only working with the ai files. My advice to you is to try this first then mess around with the data files. I hope this helps, I'm not trying to discourage you at all, just letting you know what to expect. If you are still interested then, let me know.

My advice for starters is to download the modpack 1.1 and take a look at the files involving the darlok. Tampa_Gamer has made a lot of changes regarding how his race acts.
The EarthAlliance has a great shipbuilding strategy and the Seregetti are a tough race to beat.

Sorry for the long post. Main topic of this whole long rambling post is to think out exactly what you want and then get back to me, so I can tell you exactly how to go about doing it.

Re: Major Disappointment
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raynor:
Would some kind soul give me a few tips on how to correct the defence base problem in my AI construction files?

Do you just have to take the Defense Base out of ALL the queues? Or, is there a way to take it out of the queues of just the planets that don't have space yards?

Thanks!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Change it like SunDevil said - there is only one instance of it, in the AI state called "Infrastructure". If you do not like messing with the text files. I posted the file with this fix already made on the "Construction Queu" thread.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 12 February 2001).]

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Thank you SunDevil.
Now that I know a little I can really screw it up http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Sun thanks for the heds up on what it would take, i fully expected it to me a MONSTER project. but hay thats what game lovers are fore http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif right now im pretty confused on the layout of the data files. as i read that some of the explenations on the top of the file are nolonger usable.. ie mm droped them cause they didnt work.

Im trying to get specific tech's for each race ie the atreedies would get sonic tech while the harkonan get demolition or somthing...

if you want to get ahold of my via email or somthing let me know... ill be happy to keep from tying up the thred

Re: Major Disappointment
 

Phalen,

Two things.

1. Actually lets start our own topic, so we could probably reply faster, but also other can learn as well.

2. Lets wait for the new patch to come out, and then pick a file, and I will give you a rundown of what it does and what can be changed.