A wise idea for IW?
 

Just a thought:

In upcoming patches, don't release additional national themes or modding tools -- release an expansion pack. You know we will buy it. We are addicted. It can't be totally exhorbitant, but it could be $ 19.95 and require the full Version to work. (Although it would probably have to have at least 1 competely new playable nation.)

This means that you would actually get paid for the great work you otherwise do in your free time and that upcoming patches could be less ambituous but more comprehensive bug fixes.

Yes no maybe?

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

If you simply can't stop yourself from supporting Illwinter financially, buy a few extra copies of Dom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe no. Stupid idea. If you have too much money send it all to Illwinter and be happy. You want this game even less popular? Not to mention for this price I expect years of support. Its expensive enough now.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

I would personally prefer the current business model, where each patch includes bug fixes *and* new content (but mostly bug fixes and balance improvements), and have them work on a full-price Dom III for the next paid Version.

An expansion would have to include a LOT of new stuff to compete with the new content we're given for free with each new patch.

I don't think your idea is stupid, tinkthank - I just think that with an INCREDIBLY small business model, the fact that this is the "labor of love" of only two developers, and the lack of a giant marketing structure like Blizzard or Microsoft have, the current way of doing things is probably the best for the customer...even if you don't feel like the bugs which affect you are getting fixed as quickly as you'd like.

We'd all like to see faster/more frequent bug fixes...but that goes for the expensive, highly-marketed, expansions-cost-$30 games I have played, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not to mention for this price I expect years of support. Its expensive enough now. [/QB][/quote]

The game is $49.95, more or less on par for strategy games.
It has immense depth, lots of possible strategies and very different factions which make for different game experiences and longevity.

If you think the game is too expensive for its content, I guess you haven't bought many other games lately...

Perhaps you could give examples of strategy games with a better value for money ratio?
I can't, with the possible exception of Europa Universalis 2.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

i actually disagree, i find EACH Nation should get at least 2 themes, i find it very hard to have one nation with 3 themes while others have none at all.


Given each nation had approx 2 themes then i think an expansion would be okay, to add i.e. another theme to each. And the price is VERY high for a game of this sort, no matter what depth or whatever it has, you can get games with the same amount and even GRAPHICS (which require LOTS of time and people to make) for less, usually 40-45 $. I wouldnt by an expansion by now, and to make it even worse i would AVOID getting another illwinter/shrapnel game which is sold incomplete, because to me the game is still incomplete, i expect more maps, 2 themes and most BIG bugs fixed, as well as complete modding tools (as promised) until i consider this game "finished" and ready for addon.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's too bad. Every game has bugs - but with only two people working on it, I think Illwinter does a great job of addressing them. New user-created maps are coming out all the time. And graphics are unimportant to me - only gameplay matters...although I must say I actually really, really *like* the graphics in Dom II. But then again I've been gaming for over twenty years now.

I agree, though, if you don't like the game you shouldn't buy it. But you played the demo and hung out on the forums here prior to purchasing it, yes? So you must have known at least a bit about what you were getting into.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

"You know we will buy it."

No, I wouldn't. What's more is that I would actively warn other people off of the game. It's a good game, but I agree that the $50.00 price tag is already a bit of a stretch. Yes, I have purchased numerous other games that have given me as much pleasure for less (that does not mean that I do not love this game).

However, part of the grudging agreement for me to go for the $50.00 price point for a game that has its warts (for example, not really being able to tell what is going on in a battle without being a tremendously experienced player; not being able to control the speed of battle playback; not being able to easily tell an Ulm non-blackplate infantry from a blackplate infantry) was the feeling that I was not going to be gouged for even more money in the future, and the belief, based on my understanding of Dominions I, that this game would be supported and updated for a long time for free as a labor of love.

In other words, if you want me to buy into the "It's $50.00 for a game with poor graphics, etc., because it's two guys in a garage" then it has to remain two guys in a garage as a labor of love. Start throwing out $20.00 expansion backs, and they might as well be Microsoft, and this does not have the presentation, UI, etc. of a Microsoft product.

This really isn't a criticism of the game, just premonition that it would be a criticism if I start getting hacked with expansion pack purchase requirements.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most nations which have no additional theme are new nations like Machaka or Mictlan. I guess they're so new that nobody know how to work with them. More themes will probably introduce more game-balance issuess. R'lyeh is old but with the Void summons, hybrid and automatic hybrids recruitment (everybody has found that out yet?), it's almost like a new nation.

Atlantis is the unluck one which has no additional theme in the original release or the subsquent patches. Even Arco has one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It was never promised, or even intended, but there was a huge demand for modding early after the release. We decided that it might be fun and added some modding. Seeing the results of this we decided to go further.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

It's funny (or sad...) that some people have so much bad faith that they claim the game is "unfinished" ... because the devs added new, unplanned content to make the fans happy ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
I'd be ok to give more bucks to IW to allow them to continue their great work for expansions - usually people get PAID when they make additional work, why should they work for free ? The game is pretty polished and unbuggy now, modding tools and new maps/themes are not part of support .

And about the price tag, I happen to have bought KotoR some time after Dom2 : with KotoR (40 EUR)I had maybe 20 hours of play, it cost me 2 EUR/hr. And it's over, I don't plan to play it again anytime soon. Even if I replay the game 1 time cost would be 1 EUR/hr.
With Dom I should have played at least 100 hrs, and spent the same time elaborating strategies, reading docs, toyed with modding, etc ... and I'll surely play it for another 100 hrs !
Best bang for the buck gaming investment, and it also made me meet new friends ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Graphics freaks should be incinerated or disintegrated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wonder, what do you mean by "modding tools"? The devs have released fairly impressive documentation detailing how to do modifications to the various creatures, nations, etc. The only tool you need to use to implement them is a very basic text editor.

Is there a perceived need for a GUI that would help someone better output the dot-MAP or dot-DM files?

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

I'd buy an expansion pack - if it had enough new content, and a few themes and more modding tools wouldn't be enough, IMO. It would have to be more in the new nations, more music tracks, etc. Category.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

Well these are some interesting replies. Looks like no one likes it, ok.

@ Slyfrog: No one would "require" you to buy an expansion pack. I would certainly buy it, even though there are many things I'd still like fixed with the one I purchased. Hey, I'm hooked, aren't you?
@Ragnarok-X: I agree that the game has lots of bugs I'd like to see fixed (hence my post), but that doesnt make it "unfinished", nor unworthy of an expansion.

Well anyhow, it was just a thought, please don't crucify me.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wonder, what do you mean by "modding tools"? The devs have released fairly impressive documentation detailing how to do modifications to the various creatures, nations, etc. The only tool you need to use to implement them is a very basic text editor.

Is there a perceived need for a GUI that would help someone better output the dot-MAP or dot-DM files? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are lots of things that can't be done with the current modding tools, like modding magic sites, changing the DP cost of pretenders, adding new pretenders, etc. though these (and other things of this nature) will hopefully be added in future patches.

[ February 24, 2004, 16:43: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess maybe I'm getting hung up on the term "tools". What you describe above is modding functionality, not tools. The map editor included in the base game is a tool, a least in my mind.

I asked the question because I was a bit suprised that anyone would ask for tools to do the job of a text editor. In retrospect, I could easily see where some of the more complex creature and nation editing could be helped along by a nice interface. Perhaps I will... heeeeey, what's that shiny thing over there?

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

I was reading "tools" as "functionality". A text editor should be enough for anyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're comparing apples to rutabagas here. Comparing a very linear RPG to a TBS in the hours-played department is sheer folly. At least pick a LONG linear RPG, eg Baldur's Gate 2.

A better comparison would be Dom 2 vs Civ 3. Civ was buyable at $40 at release, had much better graphics, infinitely better interface, and depending on your preferences and prejudices the gameplay is just as good.

NOTE: I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here. I bought Dom2 for $40 from GoGamer and am completely satisfied with what I got for that price.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

Im not sure what kindof "tool" could be done for modding in Dom2. Chances are that it would be a seperate program, and the Devs have already said they dont want to maintain multiple EXE's. If it is a seperate program then we may have luck getting one of the players to do one.

And forget paying for patches to help the game. I want to support the game by buying STOCK!
(Hey Im only half serious so turn the flaming to half-broil)

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

Eh, whatever they decide to do, I'll follow in suit. Expansion packs, I'll buy. Dominions 3, I'll buy. No matter.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

I think we should be expressing our appreciation to the devs of Dom 2.

They actually come to this board and answer our questions about game mechanics. How many other games have that? I remember AoW:SM and Heaven Games. They came by once in a while to make a comment or two. There was no guarantee that they'd come by and answer even a legitimate question when asked politely. Sometimes they'd be gone from the Boards for weeks. JO and KO are a treasure. And I think that their participation on this board goes a long way toward my being happy with Dom 2 even though I paid full price, which was like $50.00 plus some rather high shipping and handling charge.

The mod tools they've given us are excellent. And these tools will make the game playable far into the future with new mods and new maps even if they decide to move on to greener pastures. Which I don't expect they'll do.

I'm going to take the position that we shouldn't encourage illwinter or shrapnel to charge another $20.00 for an expansion unless it has much better graphics. If they want to do that...then let's see what they produce before we either praise them or decide to become disgruntled. IW/Shrapnel doesn't have a history of producing "must have" updates shortly after releasing a game like TSR or Microsoft. And I have a hard time seeing that as anything but a positive as a consumer.

(This is not intended as a rant. But I don't want to join those who praise the graphics of Dom 2. I think they are serviceable at best. But they don't matter all that much so long as the gameplay is rich...I'll agree with that.)

I'm with Gandalf Parker...it would be great to get in on an initial public offering of IW stock. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're comparing apples to rutabagas here. Comparing a very linear RPG to a TBS in the hours-played department is sheer folly. At least pick a LONG linear RPG, eg Baldur's Gate 2.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PDF's comparison is perfectly valid. He isn't comparing the qualities of the games, just the cost of entertainment per hour.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know why you find Civ 3 interface better, it was micromanagement hell on any map larger than small. To make things worse a lot of micromanagement was kind of obvious.

And gameplay in Civ 3 was quite different, so it's hard to compare which is better, it's more about your tastes. I liked Civ 3, but it didn't stay on my drive as long as Dom 2 and Dom 2 is probably going to stay for a few more years. The main reason is that Dom 2 is in the league of its own in the depth of the gameplay. As I see it there're few factors that made it. 1) Unlinked research (each school is independent from each other), unlike tightly-linked Civ 3 tree. 2) Much more significant difference between nations units and their research paths possibilities. 3) intensive research is not directly linked with territorial expansion. 4) Magic gems added a whole new layer to the model.

So combination of these factors produces many more ways to play and strategies. One can only wonder, how they managed to make AI capable of handling this complexity (well, at least to some extent) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

I'll buy Dominions III. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

An expansion pack will actually pursuade customers not to buy the game.

Low Price + Expansion = Happy Customers
High Price + Expansion = Mad Customers

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

This argument over pricing and customer loyalty is ridiculous. The people who will buy Dom will do so regardless of whether the game costs $30 or it costs $50. (Unless they are high school or college kids without much spare money in the first place.) People look at the demo, and either hate the game, or they love it. There's not much in between, and price is usually not the deciding factor. Good customer support is, and Dom has the best. If they don't already love the demo, getting the game cheap isn't going to sway them. Folks who are unsure about the game aren't likely to shell out even $30. What they'll do is look at reviews, come here and do some homework, and then reconsider whether they'll buy or not.

So the real qustion is whether having IW go through the enormous bother of creating an expansion pack is worth their time, and the patience and goodwill of the customers who already own the game. Note that I don't say the customer's money, because most Dom fans will pay for anything that IW publishes. Period. They might grumble about it, but they'll do it.

That pretty much leaves it at whether it's worth IW's time. Frankly, no. The development effort for an expansion pack would be almost the same as for Dom III, and IW couldn't charge as much money. Plus, to make things even worse, they'd increase their support costs in both money and time. Not a good idea.

Best if they stick to their present business plan, which is put out "small" (2.08 wasn't small, per se) patches as they have the time and willingness to do so, while seeing how well Dom 2 sells, before they jump into any new major programming tasks (like a Dom 3).

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

I intensely dislike expansion packs. In fact, I have only purchased one in my life (for Morrowind) and regretted it. If I have not purchased the game, I would not want to spend $70+ to buy the "complete" game; and if I have already bought the game, being forced to pay extra for an expansion irks me. Kohan had an expansion, which I did not buy, and which resulted in my being unable to play multiplayer games. AoW2 had an "expansion" that I consider mainly a bugfix, which I also did not buy. Bugfix expansions tell me, "If we screwed up, you're the one that will pay."

Expansions, IMO, segment the community - something that is not a good idea. I see them as a way to milk profits from a half-assed effort, and when the expansion + original are released in a "treasure chest", like Blizzard does, I see them as a way of milking profits by abusing the most devoted fans.*

Microsoft is a good example. For several generations, Word and Excel have added no new useful functionality for most Users... the only important change was to generate files in a format incompatible with old Versions, so that owners would be forced to upgrade even though their current Version was adequate. Windows 98 is also a good example; it is essentially a bugfix for Windows 95, which cost (at release) over $100.

In my opinion, software products released by a company should be either distinct, or free upgrades. Penalizing early adopters, as Blizzard (and sometimes Microsoft) likes to do, makes their early adopters hate them.

In other words, I would rather that effort be spent either fixing bugs OR designing a next-generation product, but not on devising schemes to generate additional income from the most devoted fanbase by selling marginal enhancements to an existing product. To put it bluntly: I will never again buy an expansion pack, and will never buy the first Version of a product from a company that engages in "expansion pack tactics".

-Cherry

*Edit:

In other words, devoted fans have to pay full price for the expansion pack, but people that waited get the expansions for free. Thus, the hardcore fans are penalized. If a company punishes people for trusting them... well, downhill is the only way to go. Unless the fanbase is a group of devoted, gullible masochists, like... hmmm... some companies spawn.

[ February 25, 2004, 01:14: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

Morrowind, as a game, was pretty complete, and I consider it to be arguably the best FRPG made to date. That said, the "expansion packs" to it are glorified mods + bugfixes. Civ3 is the same. One of the best 4X games ever made, with an expansion pack that should have been free.

OTOH, the Diablo 2 expansion is good stuff, but my beef with Blizzard is they charge far too much money for all their stuff. Still, I'm foolish enough to pay for it, so I can't really gripe too much.

The upcoming SWG expansion adds space travel and other features ... that were promised before the beta for SWG began and then dropped after the early testers (like me) signed on. It's reprehensible for companies to promise something, then cut features, release a half-finished product, and then charge for the missing features using an "expansion".

About the only game I can think of that provides good expansion content, and at a reasonable price, is Neverwinter Nights. Too bad it's owned by Atari, who after MOO3, I am loathe to contribute my money to ...

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">NWN is owned by Bioware. Atari is the publisher mostly because Atari has the Forgotten Realms license.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since you feel like quibbling, check out the NWN trademark. It's owned, as I said, by Atari, who bought out Infogrames. The page clearly states this. Bioware only owns the rights to the engine, not the game (copyright) or the game's trademarked name.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THIS!!! IS!!! EXACTLY!!! WHAT!!!... I am talking about. Right on the spot. Exactly.

I cannot buy a game unless I can buy all the expansions, bottom line. I feel so deprived of the real thing if I buy just the game without the expansions.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not about the question of an expansion pack (with so many players into MP, this might cause problems), but I'm not sure Dom has the best customer supports - it's very good, but I'd say I liked the Stardock support of Galactic Civilizations better. There would typically be one minor patch a week in the months following release, and I don't remember them breaking anything - testing was done more thoroughly. Of course, I believe Stardock is much more a full-time company than Illwinter is.

Oh, and Stardock is going to release a (non-free) expansion pack for GalCiv, but that's after about one year of continued support, including a free expansion pack. Plus, since GalCiv has no multiplayer, there is no pressure to buy it other than the new content (which seems quite nice, BTW - might have to share my playing time to pick up GC again).

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's a 1.2x update to GalCiv. Check with Stardock Central.

Stardock has stated, repeatedly, that they subsidize GalCiv with the proceeds from their commercial, non-gaming products. Plus they are a larger, better-established company that's been around a lot longer. It's not a particularly good comparison to IW, IMO.

With regards to breaking things: no one's perfect. I don't mind Utgard getting broken so much as the time it's taking IW to get a fix out for it, considering that KO knew what was wrong within minutes of my reporting the bug. IMO, the patch should have been quickly "recalled", the fix added, and then re-released. Or a mini-patch (2.08a) made to just fix what got broken. I find it somewhat annoying that they appear to be leaving the Utgard fix for their regular update process. When most other gaming companies (not Paradox) break something in a patch they release a revised patch within hours, or at most a couple of days. 2.08 was 9 days ago ...

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not belittling IW's merits or whatever, I'm just offering an example of what I consider better support than IW's. The quality of this support is unrelated to the size of the team, too.

In other words, just because the resources are not the same, does not mean IW's support is better. It's quite adequate, but it's perfect. And I don't expect it to be.

Re: A wise idea for IW?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're comparing apples to rutabagas here. Comparing a very linear RPG to a TBS in the hours-played department is sheer folly. At least pick a LONG linear RPG, eg Baldur's Gate 2.

A better comparison would be Dom 2 vs Civ 3. Civ was buyable at $40 at release, had much better graphics, infinitely better interface, and depending on your preferences and prejudices the gameplay is just as good.

NOTE: I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here. I bought Dom2 for $40 from GoGamer and am completely satisfied with what I got for that price. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Civ3 at release was 50 bucks....and VERY unplayable...bugs and memory leaks galore.

It took them TWO expansion packs to FINALLY get it right....Dom2 is a mucho bettero game than civ3 was at release....Civ3 just recently (within the past year maybe) dropped the price to 40 bucks. Now granted, you get Civ3 and the 1st x-pack, for that price, but to get the x-pack that made it what it was "promised" to be, you have to shell out another 30 bucks, which brings the grand total to 70 bucks buying it outright now.

If you bought civ3 at release it was 50 bucks (or, 65-70 if you were suckered into the VERY incomplete collectors edition tin box, which reminds me, "Developers Notes" anyone?). Then 30 bucks at release for the 1st expansion, then another 30 for the 2nd expansion. This equals, what? $110 for a game that is now finally complete????? Compared to 50 bucks for Dom2, which actually seems to deliver, and then some?

I would take Shrapnel/IW anytime over Civ3.