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Scenario: Orania Nasty Edition
As I really like the general Orania War setup, and especially the map, but despair because the AI nearly always loses to me in the magical site race, I have decided to write a new scenario based solidly on the old one but with each nation given certain initial advantages in the forms of sites or extra leaders, sometimes in line with their default theme, sometimes giving a unique boost for the hell of it. Independents have also been set to 9. In general, it seems that the AI performs better vs. humans at higher independent settings - possibly because rapid expansion as a human the first dozen turns is a bit harder.
I am now up to Version 0.6, which can be downloaded from my site. Download Orania Nasty Edition v0.6 here As every nation is now rather more powerful initially, the question arises whether it is well balanced. While I am happy to announce that the AI seems to utilize its new sites quite efficiently, the most likely answer on the topic of balance at this time is probably a resounding NO. All 17 nations have had their initial conditions changed, and there is no way in hell I have enough time to comprehensively test balance - I am too busy playing the scenario for fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif As such, I will value all constructive criticism and change suggestions that may be made based on examining, or better yet, playing, the scenario - even "YOU DID WHAT!?!" Posts. (1) /Peter (1) Erhm. Just to forestall one of the obvious ones: The Ermorian Wraith Lord named "Beyond Reproach" does not throw the game. It has a weakness most uncommon to Wraith Lords - the use of astral magic. [ February 27, 2004, 11:10: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ] |
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It's plenty fun. You obviously put a lot of thought into it. The AI is a lot more challenging this way.
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No time to check it out for myself right now (though I will eventually...), but do the changes to initial conditions also mean the player(s) also gets that initial boost? I'm assuming the answer is yes, which is fine, though a more 'handicaped' Version might appeal as well. OF course if you make the nations intentionally imbalanced you have the handicap built in, but only if you want to play specific nations. Not a problem, just an observation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Is this a MOD or a MAP?
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...It depends a lot on which nation you play, really, as I have taken great pains to diversify the site-advantages of the individual nations. Some nations have guaranteed great bonuses to a school of magic, others have access to automatic summoning-sites using mages, while others have nearly impregnable secondary fortresses during the early game or strategically located resources. Some have good starting leaders, some have not, &etc. Quote:
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It is a scenario based on the Orania map with all the information contained in the map file and no new graphics. [ February 27, 2004, 17:18: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ] |
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Ouch. Just tried a game as Marignon with 16 impossible AIs. Everything went well until I went for Ashen Ermor's throat around round 25. Massed friars and inquisitors backed up by crossbowmen and knights of the chalice mopped up all before me with nary a casualty...
...Until I ran into Ashen Ermor's main army. Which apart from the usual hundreds of fodder featured about 10 Dusk Elders and Spectators, all of them with plenty of death gems, who cast multiple shadow bLasts straight into my formation. Seing 35 knights of the chalice (and 20-30 crossbowmen, but who cares about them) destroyed in the first two rounds of combat, THAT HURTs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This is great fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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I like to read the script of others (a part of it, I dont want my fun too much spoiled):
#commander "Witch" #comname "Baba" #addtroops 10 "Hama Dryad" u sure addtroops is a valid command? |
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[ February 29, 2004, 21:43: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ] |
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Version 0.7 is now up for download here
Changes from 0.6: Increased features from 50 to 60 Abysia * Zarkal the Warlock exchanged for a Telestic Animate to prevent the AI from moving the commander away stopping devil summoning (silly AI) Arcoscephale * Dupond and Dupont are now Watchers rather than members of the silver order to prevent the AI from moving the commander away stopping draconian summoning (silly AI) Jotunheim * Now starts with the Summon Winter Wolves spell Man * Baba the Witch exchanged for a Hama Dryad to prevent the AI from moving the commander away stopping Lamia summoning (silly AI) * Man now correctly starts with 10 Hama Dryads in the Bewitched Forest (#91) |
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Your work is greatly appreciated Mr Ebbesen. I copied some of your mapfile and put it into other maps with good result. Seems you've come up with a very good concept.
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Excellent work. I will definetly try this out. A great example of using planned well thought-out changes in a .map file to affect one game in neat ways.
Check it out people. It re-uses the orania.tga image (in case you arent a paint program user) and creates a whole new game-map by just copying a .map file and making changes. Each map in the game is made up of a .tga image and a .map text file that can be edited with any word processor such as notepad. |
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So far I like it.
More impressions to come. Sammual |
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Petter Ebisson: Good work, I'm planing to try it later. Based upon your excellent work in EU2 mod field I excpect a lot from this scenario in terms of AI challennge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Btw - small suggestion that you may have considered yourself already. On Gandalf's great map site he has many editions for differnt nations of the same map - to give player more chanllenge by allying some of AIs against the nation of your choice from the begiing. Like for example if you are going to play "Abyssia" you just download map named "abyssia:" fopr larger challenge while playing SP as this nation. I wonder if the same principle could be applied to your own map - making 17 copies of them with only difference of having only 16 nations "boofed up"out of 17 on each of this map. Comparible to the work you have done already it should not be too difficult, if I understand the process correctly. By doing it the player could enjoy all benefits of "boofed up" AIs in your map without beeing "boofed up" himslef, which if I understand ot right was potential problem for your "nasty edition" of Orania. Of course, if you've made something like this already than just disregard this message. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Just trying to help with my two cents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Now THE ultimate masohistic challenge for hard-core Dominions2 veterans would be to win such "one nation-excluded" Version of your "nasty Orania" map like I've described above, WITH Gandalf-style modification of alliance system between AIs - meaning nasty edition of orania with all races beefed up but yours, and with all AIs set on Impossible and allied against you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I don't know if it would be possible tio win, but it would be definetly the ultimate challenge... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Finally, release 1.0 is available for download here. This is a major overhaul of all nations with several sites moved around (mostly to their owner's capital) and a few new sites and commanders added.
Changes from 0.8: Abysia * The Steel Ovens moved from The Infernal Gate to Abysia * New Orichalum mine in Abysia * New Plain of Perpetual Drought near The Infernal Gate Arcoscephale * Village of Strange Men in Arcoscephale Atlantis * The Winter Solstice moved to Atlantis from #242 * New Ancient Temple of the Deeps in Atlantis * New Clam Field in #242 Caelum * New Great Iron Mine in Caelum * New Ice Mists in Caelum C'tis * AI controlled C'tis prefers Miasma theme * New Pyramid of Life in C'tis * New Mine of Superior Iron in C'tis Ermor * New Crypt Underneath in Ermor * New Statue of Death in Ermor Jotunheim * The Great Mirror of Maaki moved from Triple Peaks to Jotunheim * New Crown Woods and Great Iron Mine in #17 * New Gold Mine in #270 * New Mine of Superior Iron in Jotunheim Man * New Shrouded Lands in Man * New Commander: "Asterios" the Minotaur Lord. Theseus would not approve. Machaka * Summon Kithaironice Lion as startspell * The Lost One now gains NNNE magic * Moved the Steel Ovens from #137 to Machaka * New Mine of the Cyclops in #137 * Firbolg Fortress in Shimmering Plains changed to Forgotten Fortress Marignon * New Solar Lens in Marignon * New Commander: "Renegade" the accursed tree-hugging Demonbred (his role in his new life is a bit unclear) Michtlan * Summon Lesser Horror as startspell * New Commander: "Gate of Tears" the Monolith * New Mercury Pond in Pyriphlegiton Pangaea * New Sacred Glen in Pangaea * New Vale of Unicorns in Pangaea Pythium * New Steel Swamps in Pythia * New Silver Forest in Pythia R'lyeh * New Last Void and Coral Reef in R'lyeh T'ien C'hi * New Chasm of Black Roses in T'ien C'hi * New Rainbow Shroud in T'ien C'hi Ulm * New Ancient Forge in Ulm * New Vaults Beneath in Ulm Vanheim * New Well of All the Waters in Vanheim * Fortress and Temple in #221 * New Commander: "Exile" the Harab Elder |
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Well now that you're done with this make a scenario for the world please http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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#allies 1 2 #allies 1 3 #allies 1 4 for all the combinations of the 17 nations. It would only kick in for AIs added to the game. And it would keep the AI's from attacking each other to concentrate on you. What would such a scenario be called? Orania Insane? Orania Armageddon? Might be fun for a multiplayer game where 3 or 4 human players would DEFINITELY be smart to form their own alliance against the AI's. Of course you could also use notepad to add those commands to the .map you downloaded from him if you wanted to test this idea. [ March 29, 2004, 02:42: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Scenario: Orania Nasty Edition
Gandalf, an all allied impossible AI Version of the nasty edition would be called "Orania - Oh, ****, why am I being hit by 10-20 rituals per round, and how come all the elemental kings and queens have already been summoned"...
....Which does not really roll off the tongue, now does it? (Unless you were playing Ermor, in which case you are Beyond Reproach) It would almost certainly not be impossible to win alone, of course, but it might be a bit hard for some nations. [ March 29, 2004, 08:01: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ] |
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As for Versions control - you don't really need them I think. You could just continue to use single Version of the map until you feel you are happy with it, after you finish tweaking it. Then produce these maps for differnt nations just by removing whatever sites and stuff you had put in to help the particualr nation. I may be wrong of course since I am speaking from general logic point of view without any experince with Dom2 mapmaking. If so - I appologize. But in any case- it's your call of course. If you are done with it - could you tell me if it did help AIs more than it did human player? If it did, I would like to try it. |
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Officially, I never finish tweaking any of my projects, Stormbinder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
That said, I surely hope that I receive feedback from those of you who play the map, in order that I can improve it. I strive for some sort of balance in the starting positions, as I will want to play it in MP one of these days, but it is obviously impossible to test the relative strengths of the VERY different setups fully with just one player. As such, is any nation too weak? Any nation too strong? Is there some site that one of the nations just needs to have to give it that little extra tweak, for fun or for profit? Does some sites need to be removed? As for you, Stormbinder, I suggest you play around with it a bit [as non-Ermor] with 16 impossible AIs and then, after a game or two, you tell me whether you want a Version where the advantages are removed for the country you play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Peter
I also like the Orania map, but had similar issues with out stripping the AI gem count quickly. Your map will not completely resovle the problem but it surely is a step in the right direction. Ermor starting with an income of 23 death gems is rather daunting! Overall this will make the map much more challenging. For SP there may be some balancing issues in that a player may be able to overpower the AI, but I don't think this will be an issue in MP. |
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I cannot rule out that I may have gone too far. Heck, even AI AE/SH Ermor can occasionally be scary against a human in this setup once they get rolling despite the ease of massing priests, as the AI likes to mass Dusk Elders and have them Shadow BLast the opposition (At 23 Death Gems initial income, it generally recruits a Spectator or Dusk Elder per round from turn 1....) - I wonder how dangerous Ermor would be in human hands in this scenario. [ March 30, 2004, 21:08: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ] |
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It's not possible to forecast the outcome of the buffing in this scenario. It will need to be played again and again by several people until it can be stated with confidence whether a nation has become over powered. I know that I will enjoy doing this research. Once again this looks to be a great scenario!
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Jotunheim is only broken if the AI chooses the Utgard theme, the odds of that are low. If you want to absolutely make sure it does not, you can add a #compspecdom 12 "Niefelheim" command to the map file. Quote:
The scenario works best if all nations are played. If you feel that one nation is too strong, set it to a lower difficulty level rather than leaving it out. Leaving out a nation assures that its neighbours can very easily acquire another ~20+ gem income and several good sites within the first 10-15 rounds, which can have unfortunate results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [ March 31, 2004, 19:30: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ] |
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Some comments on the map: Abysia provence Zemike (195), Pythium provence Pastenna (202), Man provence Bewitched Forest (91), Machaka provence Vitpre all allow mages to be built but they have no labs. Jotenhiem provence Midwinter Woods (17) can recruit a druid but it has neither a lab nor a temple. R'lyeh provence Ardun has a void but no summoner in the provence. I don't know if these were intentional or oversights. Also, there was a comment about Mictlan being too weak, now it has three pretenders!
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Indeed, Slogan, Mictlan should not be underestimated on this map. Their three important provinces are all rather well guarded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
As for your points, I have not completely scripted all starting provinces. With a few exceptions, it is possible for the three non-fortress starting provinces to have extra sites and in some cases to have one of the lesser features overwritten. Thus the starting situation is not exactly the same in each game, there is some latitude for surprise - and it is possible to get mage recruitment in provinces I have not explicitly planned for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Abysia 195 is one of these, so you just got lucky with an additional feature http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Pythium does not own 202, Atlantis does, and it has a lab. Man's province 91 has a scripted lab! If none exists in your game, could you please give list the terrain features present so I can see if something has gone wrong? (it should start with lab, Forest of Avalon, Jungle Temple, and White Man Hill - if it does not, I wonder whether the lab has been overwritten by something else) Machaka should start with labs in 124, 137, 152, and 166 - all the places they are scripted to recruit mages. Only 154 is not scripted to have a lab. (Oh, and please name provinces by numbers, as most of the names are not fixed but randomly chosen each game by the game) Jotunheim 17 has neither temple nor lab. That is because I am evil. I have only handed bonus temples out to a few select religious nations and Jotunheim does not qualify. As the ice druid cannot be recruited without a temple, I didn't think they deserved a lab either. (I still wonder whether I went too far when setting up Jotunheim's province 16, "Triple Peaks". That is one nasty conflux of magical energies) R'lyeh 64 with the bonus void summoning site could, indeed, use a default summoner for jokes and giggles. Perhaps a cursed recouperating astral idiot that any sensible player would exchange with a Star Spawn... Hmmm. The opportunities are endless. Good idea! |
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I have been playing this map non-stop I love it.
Abysia has a bit of a problem. You give a magic item to a commander that doesn't have a spot for it. I would suggest giving it to an assassin. Also the bodyguards for that same commander kill him (They have the heat special effect and the commander is not immune to heat). Also the site you added for the commander to enter causes the province unrest to go thru the roof. As this is one of the two recruiting sites to start with this is BAD. I would suggest changing this to another 'enter to summon' site (Factory) or move this commander and site to a different province. Sammual |
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This map is a ton of fun.
1) How can I mod it so that renaming is allowed? I have grown accustomed to naming particular commanders certain names to help me remember them and their roles. 2) In MP games is renaming typically not allowed? 3) I've been tinkering with Vanheim. Why did you give them a Harab Seraph? It seems redundant with their valkyries. 4) This map has inspired me to get into modding, but I'm just flummoxed about what sort of program I'd need to open the map file for editing. What program did you use? Thanks for your great work, Peter! |
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Sammael,
Oops, yes, "Vision of the Abyss" does not have a misc. slot - silly thing to have overlooked when I changed it from a Warlock to a Telestic Animate to prevent the AI from moving it away immediately. Fixed in next release. As for getting killed by its bodyguards, however, these things happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (Why were enemies allowed to assault the Infernal Gate in the first place??? - still, something to look at) At 0 order, a tax level of 50-60% is enough to keep the Infernal Gate free of unrest. If you want to make a deal with the devil you have got to live with the results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif As the free devil-summoning is thematic, I am not changing this. Abysia gets the best free creature summoning site and must live with its few disadvantages. Inigo Montoya, 1) You cannot. It is currently not possible to set a scenario to allow renaming. This sucks. I hope it is changed in future releases. 2) Pass 3) Overkill, I guess, and a guaranteed source of death magic 4) ANY text editor will do for editing text files. You can even use windows notepad if you are into S/M, though I advocate using a real text editor. On a windows platform, I would suggest using the Programmer's File Editor for three reasons, 1) it is free, 2) it loads incredibly fast, and 3) it is good. |
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[ April 08, 2004, 05:16: Message edited by: Stormbinder ] |
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Im having a great time with this map. Its what I always referred to as the kindof play offered in my random maps, but better done manually and logically (which I dont have the patience to do)
I think I will even link to it off my site as an example of that in the hopes that others might do some also. -- www.dom2minions.com [ April 09, 2004, 19:08: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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One great benefit with 2.11 is that you now get a reduced scenario setup window for those settings not defined in a scenario, which means that renaming, hall of fame size, &etc is now alterable. (You still do not get to alter the independents strength, fortunately. It is designed to be played on strength 9 and that is what it will be - unless you edit the file). I am likely to release 1.1 some time soon ("When it is done" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) featuring several minor tweaks. Quote:
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-- www.dom2minions.com where random is king |
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i ran into a couple problems with pangea on this map. With Carrion Woods one of the magic sites in the capital damages undead, while with new era i couldn't produce any minotaurs at treelord's rest despite have prod +3 scales.
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The second one - what exactly do you mean? Too few resources? Treelord's rest has 5 neighbouring provinces, of which you control only 2 to start. When you have conquered the rest, you should suck enough resources to allow you to build a minotaur per turn, even with the crappy Arkaic Fortress the Treelord owns (unless Ermor has already drained the provinces) I guess I could add some bonus resources to Treelord's rest, but I always pictured that province as more of a magical masterpiece than a marshalling field for troops, really, what with its insane +8 nature gems, 50% enchantment, 20% thaumaturgy, and resident Treelord. |
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CC |
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