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Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Scattered Thoughts On Modding Costs
Official Unit Guidelines are sparse, especially wrt playbalancing and costs. Here follow some random definitions, theories, equations, and examples. I'm not married to them, I just want to start discussion and get some acceptable standards set by the community. Definitions =========== Two separate things: Gold, Resources. -Gold determines how good the meat is. -Resources determines how good the equipment is. Three types of units: Soldiers, Monsters, Commanders. -Soldiers are members of the Nation's race; e.g. humans, lizardmen, etc. -Monsters are greater than the acceptable norms of the Nation's race. E.g. vampires are stronger than humanly possible, and steal life. -Commanders are charismatic units, capable of leading. For discussion purposes I will use Humans as the example National race, and Light Infantry as the unit to base unit for comparison. Statistics follow. Lt Inf Militia HV Inf hp---10------8------10 st---10------8------10 att--10------8------10 def--12------8------12 mor--10------8------10 mr---10------8------10 pre--10-----10------10 arm--09------8------13 dge--03-----03------06 gold-10-----07------10 res--10-----07------16 ------ Militia stats run 20% less on the skill side, except precision. They are cost 30% less gold. Their armor provides ~10% less protection, and their weapon is the same for dge and both have the useful repel ability. They do not have javelins. They cost 30% less resources (metal, leather, production time and skill). -2hp -2st -2att -2def -2mor -2mr = -3gold -1prot -javelin = -3res Heavy Infantry stats are the same on the skill side, and they cost the same gold wise. Resource-wise, HI have 35% better armor, and much better weapons, but no repel and no javelins. Resource cost is 60% higher. +4 pnts armor; +3 pnts weapon -javelin = +6res. That seems to make sense. A javelin is worth 1res. 1pnt armor is 1res. 1pt wep dge is 1res. Conclusion is that we have light, normal, and heavy units. Light units cost disproportionately less. Normal units cost normal amounts. Heavy units cost disproportionately more. So far we have: Light------militia normal-----lt infantry, hv infantry heavy------none yet, let's examine one Black Knight hp------15 st------13 att-----12 def-----09 mor-----15 mr------09 pre-----10 arm-----24 dge-----20/8/6 gold----60 res-----70 +5hp +3st +2att -1def +5mor -1mr = +50 gold +14arm +11dge +lance = +60res Ok, here's my theory for unit stat cost in gold. ================================== 7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost 10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost 13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost 16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost 20-30 pnts skill = 4X cost (not normally possible for humans?) ================================== E.g. New Unit Elite HV Infantry. All stats the same except ST 12 and ATT 12 would cost 10 +2 +2 = 14gold. E.g. New Unit Super Elite HV Infantry. St 15, Att 15, HP 15; 10 + 5X1.5 +5X1.5 +5X1.5 = 33gold. Resources should behave similarly, but on a different metric. Here's my theory for unit resource cost: ==================== 0-8 light X0.75 9-11 average X1 12-20 heavy X1.5 21-30 super X2 ==================== We'll test it on Black Knights: 10res +14armX2 +11dgeX2 +lance = 70res 10res +28+22+X=70res A Lance seems to be worth 10res. Which makes sense. New Unit Example--The fabled Steel Battalion. An incredibly elite Super Heavy Infantry, full of weight lifting 7 foot tall supermen who push the envelope of humanity. Here are this proud group's stats: hp 18 st 18 att 18 def 18 mor 18 mr 18 pre 10 arm 26 dge 20 This looks like standard stats for the people who used to bring pre-rolled characters and try to get into my DnD games. Anyways, let's add Conan here up and estimate the unit cost. 10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold 10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res That sounds about right. Any comments? This does not count in special powers like repel, lance, regenerate, ethereal, magic dge, poison dge, fire aura, fear, awe, etc. I imagine these could work similarly: Fear Costs 1-4 2gold/pnt 5-9 3gold/pnt 10-14 4gold/pnt 15-19 5gold/pnt E.g. If we give Conan above a Fear aura of 15, we would add 4X2+4X3+4X4+1X5=41gold Ethereal units are special. They know it. They charge extra gold for their abilities. 10% more. The same for Regeneration. Regen 10 = 10% more. Regen 20 = 20% more. Etc. I'll write more later on commanders and monsters. I'm interested in others' thoughts. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Interesting ideas. A tip about resources costs :
The pinned "Equipment list" thread shows the resource cost of each weapon and piece of armor. In game the formula for resource cost of unit is mainly "sum of equipment costs", but is adjusted/multiplied or mounted or giant sized troops. This resource cost per equipment is important because protection is not all : various armor types give more or less encumbrance for the same prot value, shields give defense, etc .. |
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While such guidelines can be useful, cost is also affected by thematic considerations and overall balance for the nation being modded.
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I would have to disagree on the gold/meat, resources/equipment split in one important Category: Magical Equipment.
Any equipment that you would normally have to forge to equip a leader with, but which comes as part and parcel with a unit, should hike up the gold cost, and the higher magic level needed and the higher construction level, the higher the cost. E.g. equipping units with Black Steel items should increase the gold cost by very little - they require E1 and L0 construction to forge, but lesser or greater magic items should cost considerably more. |
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On the fear effect:
I feel that the fear effect should cost somewhere between 2x-4x the amount stated by Uh-Nu-Buh. That is: 1-4 4-8 gold/pnt 5-9 6-12 gold/pnt 10-14 8-16 gold/pnt 15-19 10-20 gold/pnt So in this example a unit with fear 15 (fear (+10)) should cost from 150 to 300 gold extra. These kind of units are almost gamebreakers if in large numbers. The pricing should reflect that. Edit: The reason I´m using a range and not a fixed figure is that mods should be open to general balancing and also I´m not sure exactly how much the "correct" amount would be. [ February 28, 2004, 23:33: Message edited by: Bossemanden ] |
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Good points everybody. I'll revise the tables to reflect this, plus add some new guidelines on magic items, etc. I think I might have to make this into "The Unofficial Unit Mod Guide".
What does everyone think of the "official" rule on holy units? That it raises their unit cost by 50%? I think that is a bit high, myself. |
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Sacred gives +50% cost in Gold. It's a good rule, unless there is a good reason for it to be broken (aka, thematic or balance reason).
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Reworked Tables, plus some additions for your perusal and comments. One of the things I vacillate on is a fixed fee or a rate. E.g. Amphibian--should it cost 5gp, or should it cost 10% of the unit's base cost? The ability is important, and the more powerful the unit, the more important being an amphibian is.... Which is better for game balance?
Gold based on Skills (hp, st, etc.) ================================== 7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost (weak human) 10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost (avge human, weak monster) 13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost (elite human, average monster) 16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost (super elite human, above average monster) 20-29 pnts skill = 4X cost (super man, elite monster) 30-40 pnts skill = 6X cost (elite monster nobility) 41+ = 8X cost (elite monster royalty) ================================== Resources (based on normal equipment) ====================== 0-8 light X0.75 9-11 average X1.00 12-20 heavy X1.50 21-29 super X2.00 30-40 amazing X3.00 41+ insane X5.00 ====================== Fear Costs ====================== 1-4 6gold/pnt (undead lord, minor demon, necromancer) 5-9 9gold/pnt (undead king, med demon, high level necromancer) 10-14 12gold/pnt (major demon, psionic thing from beyond) 15-19 15gold/pnt (demon nobility, major gibbering horror from beyond) 20+ 20gold/pnt (world-destroying menace all pretenders should band up against) ====================== Ethereal ====================== 10% more gold ====================== Regeneration ====================== X% X% more gold (werewolf has regen 10%, Tarasque has 60%) ====================== Resistance (fire, cold, poison, shock) ====================== 1-25 flat 3 gold per resistance 26-50 flat 6 gold 51-75 flat 9 gold 76-100 flat 12 gold e.g. unit with fire/cold res of 25%/25%, costs +6 more than its base. Mounted ====================== 2 gold ====================== Animal ====================== 0 ====================== Amphibian ====================== 20% more gold ====================== Aquatic ====================== 0 ====================== Pooramphibian ====================== 10% more gold ====================== Flying ====================== 5 gold ====================== neednoteat ====================== 5 gold ====================== heal ====================== I am not sure what this does. Heal unit only, or heal all units in stack? ====================== Heat ====================== 5 gold ====================== Cold ====================== 5 gold ====================== Trample ====================== 5 gold ====================== Immobile ====================== -5 gold ====================== Immortal ====================== +50% ====================== Iceprot ====================== ====================== Poisonarmor ====================== ====================== Holy ====================== +33% (official word is +50%, but I think that is too much) ====================== Berserk ====================== 1g/pnt (max berserk value should be def value, imho) ====================== Illusion ====================== ====================== Stealthy ====================== ====================== Spy ====================== ====================== Assassin ====================== 5gp ====================== Noitem ====================== -5gold ====================== Coldblood ====================== -5gp ====================== Inanimate ====================== 5gp ====================== Magicbeing ====================== 5gp ====================== Undead ====================== 0gp ====================== Blind ====================== 5gp ====================== Eyes ====================== 1 -5gp 2 0gp 3-4 3gp 5+ 10gp ====================== Eyeloss ====================== 5gp ====================== Horrormark ====================== 5gp ====================== Entangle ====================== 5gp ====================== Fireshield ====================== 5gp+1/dge pnt ====================== Poisoncloud ====================== ====================== Diseasecloud ====================== ====================== Awe ====================== not sure how this is different from fear? ====================== |
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Hmmm... good thinking. I've deviced my own little system but it would be interesting if we could get a concensus to make modding easier.
Awe could be compared to a "personal forcefield". It doesn't protect the unit against spells or missiles but lets it own melee if it is high enough. This should cost less than fear initially but the increase should be steeper. Awe 20 would make the unit unbeatable in melee. Cost should be multiplied if the unit also has a passive damage aura. Eg: Had a GoR hydra with awe +6. This thing could wipe out armies all on its own because of the toxic fumes surrounding it. Mounted should cost 15 gold and add 10 to action points. |
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[ February 29, 2004, 16:54: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ] |
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10-12 points are not "normal" for humans; Dominions humans have 10 base stats, and are typically +1 gold per point in excess (for small values). For example, Tien Chi Imperial Spearmen get +2 morale and +1 defense for +3 gold. That might be a little overpriced. Anyway, stat bonuses have rapidly increasing value and should be priced exponentially, or similarly. For example, if a unit has all stats 10 except defense, it might be fair to price it like this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Defense: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Gold: 10 10.5 11.5 13 16 18.5 21.5 25 29</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...or at an even steeper rate (what I showed above is linear, not geometric). Of course, attack is not nearly as valuable. But charging 40 gold for a "superman" unit with 29 HP, 29 attack, 29 defense, 29 morale, 29 strength, 29 MR... Um. I humbly suggest you try out such a unit in the combat sim, notice that it can utterly destroy all other units in the game (including all the Gods, greater blood summons, and Doom Horrors), and then maybe reconsider the 40 gold cost=) Unless I'm misinterpreting what .5x / 1x / 2x / 4x mean? [ February 29, 2004, 17:22: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ] |
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Saber, here's my example of how to use the tables. You'll find that it is more in line with reality than how you were reading the tables.
New Unit Example--The fabled Steel Battalion. An incredibly elite Super Heavy Infantry, full of weight lifting 7 foot tall supermen who push the envelope of humanity. Here are this proud group's stats: hp 18 st 18 att 18 def 18 mor 18 mr 18 pre 10 arm 26 dge 20 This looks like standard stats for the people who used to bring pre-rolled characters and try to get into my DnD games. Anyways, let's add Conan here up and estimate the unit cost. 10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold 10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res Saber, your example of a 29/29/29 human would be VERY expensive. Let's call this Ubermensch the Sabre Infantry: hp 29 st 29 att 29 def 18 mor 18 mr 18 pre 10 arm 26 dge 20 10gold +19stX4 +19hpX4 +19attX4 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 10+76+76+76+16+16+16 = 286gold 10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res The Sabre Infantry. Be All That You Can Be! ;-) |
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286 Gold is not alot for a unit with those Stats. Look at the Neifel Jarl.
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Incidentally, some stats are more valuable than others. Increasing from 20 to 30 strength: Not very valuable. 20 to 30 attack: Not very valuable. 20 to 30 HP: A bit valuable. 20 to 30 defense: Super valuable. 20 to 30 natural protection: Insane. [ February 29, 2004, 21:26: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ] |
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286 + 270 = 556 X 1.5 = 834 gold Pretty much in line. Maybe too expensive. |
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I agree with Saber Cherry. The stats need to be weighted differently. But most protection and defence scores comes from armor and shields so these should not be represented in gold cost, which I feel represent the training of the unit.
Strength oughto be pretty cheap but needs common sence. A human will not be pushing 15+ regardless of training. High strength scores should only be allowed on large or exotic units that should by default have larger goldcost to represent their rarity. Defence and Attack is fleetness of foot, agility, battle tactics as well as intimidation and skill with weapons and shield. This could well follow the guidelines suggested. Scores above 15 should increase exponentially in cost. Protection should only be used with those units that would not be using armour, barding or shields. Dragon scales are legendary in myths and apparently they offer about as much protection as full plate armour. This should be somewhat expensive but since "natural protection" and armor values average it's no game breaker. Hitpoints are no big deal either, since afflictions causes balance. All in all its really up to the modder to justify the presence of units with scores above 15 in anything. So perhaps guidelines for super elite values are not that important. It can be as expensive as a fortress but if there's no fun playing against a faction using it, it should be dropped from the mod. What I'm really interested in is the pricetag on abilities, like say coldprotection, and equipment. Saber Cherry started a list of items but what I would like is a suggestion on how a crafted item converts in resources and gold when put on a unit. I was thinking about sticking Fireswords in the hands of some elite units in a planned "elemental wars" mod. |
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Ok a quick and dirty proposal.
Cost of Items converted to gold an ressources: Total cost in gems = X Level of construction (1,2,4,6 or 8) = Y C1,C2,Z1 and Z2 are constants Gold cost = G = C1*X^Z1 Ressource cost = R = C2*Y^Z2 Edit: Artifacts should probably not be included. Hence possible values for Y are {1,2,4,6} [ March 01, 2004, 15:03: Message edited by: Bossemanden ] |
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I was sort of thinking along the same line until I realised fire and earth gems are worth more since they can be transmuted into gold. And since all gems can be turned into Astral those items oughto be cheaper.
Also no unit, apart from summoned that is, should be given items with a blood magic ingredient. While you don't get any of the items special abilities, if they are not added that is, it doesn't make sense that gold and resource cost lets you skip the unrest of a bloodhunt. |
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Hmm fair enough.
So lets say: X=Fire*1.5+Air+Water+Earth*1.5+Astral*0.75+Death+N ature+Blood*2 And Y=Level+Blood/10 Hows that? Edit: Doesnt give you what you want regarding blood items, but it does make it more expensive. [ March 01, 2004, 14:29: Message edited by: Bossemanden ] |
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Well Firegems are more valuable then earthgems. Perhaps lowercost for earth to *1.25?
Let's try the formula on a Firesword then. C1=5? (A fire gem sells for 15 gp but costs would be immense for units). x=5 z1=a bit redundant perhaps? Gold cost is then 5*(1.5*5)=37,5 or 38 c2=base item resource (broadsword)?=4 z2=not needed. Resource is 4*(1*1.5)=6 So an ordinary Commander (30gold 14res) with a Firesword would cost 68 gold and 16 res. Unit got +6 damage +3 attack for the increased cost. Too expensive? |
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Ok Earth at 1.25 seems reasonable.
Dunno I think maybe the pricing is too much gold and too little resource. How about C1=4 and C2=8? So in the case of the Fire sword the price would be: Gold price=4*5*1.5=30 gold Resource price = 8*1=8 resource The Hellsword would cost: Gold price = 4*10*2=80 gold Resource price = 8*(6+1)=56 resource Edit: Price formula at this point: G=4*(Fire*1.5+Air+Water+Earth*1.25+Astral*0.75+Dea th+Nature+Blood*2) R=8*(Construction level+Blood/10) [ March 01, 2004, 15:16: Message edited by: Bossemanden ] |
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I dunno about c2=8. I actually rather use the base item cost in some sort of multiple. It would make sense to have a higher goldcost since you are paying a mage for "industrial work". I don't know if a enchanted broadsword would be harder to manufacture in raw materials though. When you craft the items for a commander the only limit you have is the number of gems and wizards after all. This means you could churn out 20 fireswords all at once, even in a 5 rerource wasteland, if you happen to have 1000 firegems lying around.
But then again it should reflect the rarity of the gems used, since one is using "second grade" gems that are not part of the gods stockpile. |
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I think I´ll buy your argument regarding base item resource cost.
R=Base cost*(Construction level+Blood/10) Possibly Construction level^Z though. It should be really hard to mass produce the higher level items. Z=1.2 maybe Proposed resource cost: R=Base cost*(Construction level^1.2+Blood/10) A Hellsword would then cost: R=6*(6^1.2+1)=57.51=58(rounded) Sword of swiftness: R=4*(4^1.2)=21.11=21(rounded) Robe of Invulnerability: R=1*(6^1.2)=8.58=9(rounded) (Assuming minimal resource cost of 1) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif *****y board rules wouldnt let me use "more than" or "less than" signs Edit: With the current proposal a Robe of Invulnerability would cost: 4*80*1.25=400 gold http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif [ March 01, 2004, 16:14: Message edited by: Bossemanden ] |
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Some costs with the latest proposal:
Item = gold,resource Armour of souls = 320,121 Robe of Invulnerability = 400,9 Robe of the magi = 480,9 Black steel full plate = 50,26 Elemental Armor = 80,106 (Its a level 4 item right?) Edit: Corrected Black steel full plate gold cost to 50 [ March 01, 2004, 19:40: Message edited by: Bossemanden ] |
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Seems very reasonable. Remember that I was just curious about the lower tier weapons and armor. Higher tier items would be reserved for summoned units and commanders and they can be outfitted the normal crafting way. Thank you for the help.
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Giving a Robe of Invulnerability and Elemental Armor to normal units with only the cost of gold? That totally throws the entire issue of paths, forging, wait time, and many other aspects. 800 Gold for a unit that is better than a fully equipped Blood or Conjuration 7 unit is low. Especially considering the factor of speed.
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These costs bear almost no relation to how difficult an item is to actually get in the game. Black steel full plate is available on Ulm units for only a resource cost. Elemental armour is only marginally more expensive than BSFP, with fire 1 added to the requirements.
A robe of invulnerability on the other hand, takes an earth 5 mage and 80 earth gems. You shouldn't be able to even buy such an item unless your nation also includes earth 5 mages as a standard unit, and has an earth gem income of a few hundred per turn. Otherwise where are all those magic resources coming from? A robe of the magi for only 480 gold is also pretty extreme, since it's normally an extremely expensive and rare item. Giving a unit 30 protection for no research and only gold costs seems just a little strange to me. |
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The Black Steel of Ulm is not as good as the magical Black Steel Armor. Not much difference, but they are different.
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Generally, when you think a cost is good and balanced increase it by x1.5 or x2 and you are probably better off. If you have given it rare abilities x3 is probably right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Regarding the highpriced items I agree. It would not be reasonable to give these highpower items for gold/resource only. So I think that lv 6 items should probably not be given at all. Otherwise are you satisfied with the price range? I mean it would be possible to add costs on a item by item base, but this is an attempt at a quick and dirty rule. if you are in favour of some kind of general rule/direction when adding magic items to units, then please give your input. |
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I'll summarise this, and repost the guide with the changes. For now, I am going to keep the guide in text, as it makes it easier to edit, append, etc. When it comes time, I will PDF it for Version 1.0.
I also plan to have a couple of running examples that can be used for each of these. As in "If we make the Steel Brigade units amphibians, this will add Xgold, Yresources...." All right, what about movement? I think strategic movement is !very! important. Getting your units where the need to go can make the difference between a stalled front and a major victory; or conversely, a staunch defence or a massacre on the homefront as your inner provinces get gutte. I am thinking: 1mv militia, hv infantry 2mv lt infantry, hv cavalry 3mv light cavalry 4mv elite light cavalry 5mv flying units For every 1mv above the regular for the unit in question, you add 5gp. E.g. The elite light cavalry units have 4mv, and cost 10gold/unit more (just for movement) than light infantry at 2mv. E.g. Heavy Infantry normally have 1mv, but elite HV Infantry might have 2mv and cost 5gp/unit more. |
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This is taking longer than I thought. I am trying to tidy it up, make it more legible, provide two running examples for how the various tables and formulae work, and in general make it an easy to use guide, instead of a chore that nobody will ever want to use. Sorry for the delay. I might have the new Version ready Thursday.
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UNOFFICIAL MOD GUIDEBOOK V 1.00
UNB Table of Contents ================= +Introduction +General Considerations +Definitions +Unit Costs --Base Gold --Base Resources +Advanced Characteristics and Costs +Summary Addendum (Charts etc.) ================= Introduction ============ Following are Proposed Guidelines for Modding. This resource is compiled from the best of a thread of the same name on the official Dominions II community board. Best meaning either a large majority of people agreed it was the best, or I determined it on my own in my ego-ridden role as originator, editor, and major contributor. Please let me know if you disagree with any part of it. Convince me, and I will change it! This was started because the official guidelines were sparse. These are not meant to be authoritative. These are guidelines only. I am going to skip acknowledgements other than in general--specific attributions would be too many and varied. Let me know if I miss you, misspell you, or if you don't want to be associated with this project. Thanks go to the following for their wit and knowledge: Teraswaerto Peter Ebbesen Arryn Graeme Dice Bossemanden Zen Wauthan Saber Cherry Kristoffer O General Considerations ====================== While these guidelines can be useful, cost is also affected by thematic considerations and overall balance for the nation being modded. These guidelines are pretty accurate, but the Modder should feel free to increase or decrease a unit's cost by 10% for thematic reasons (e.g. if a nation specialises in elite light cavalry, you could design what you think of as elite light cavalry then make it 10% cheaper to make them more numerous, or to reflect the fact that the nation is designed so that they are easier to produce thus more numerous). Multiplayer games need play-balanced nations, but if you are designing for singleplayer only, forget the rules! Remember that each of the nations is approximately equal but different. E.g. some have more powerful heroes than others; some have cavalry while others don't; some specialise in hordes of cheap units (Ermor) while others depend on less numerous powerful units (Jotunheim). Design your nation thematically--quirks are welcome by players! A small change can really add up. E.g. taking Ulm and making the units just 10% cheaper makes Ulm much much more powerful over the course of a 100+ turn game. Generally, when you think a cost is good and balanced increase it by x1.5 or x2 and you are probably better off. If you have given it rare abilities x3 is probably right. In general, stay away from adding magic items to a unit. It upsets the balance of the game too much, even when it is thematic. If you must do it, use the weakest items--and make it integral to the nation. A good example of a nation that has made weak magic items integral is Ulm with its Black Steel armor, shields, etc. Even a weak item can help make a nation exceptionally strong. Be careful not to overbalance your units/nations. Definitions =========== Two separate things: Gold, Resources. -Gold determines how good the meat is. -Resources determines how good the equipment is. Four types of units: Soldiers, Monsters, Commanders, Mages. -Soldiers are members of the Nation's race; e.g. humans, lizardmen, etc. -Monsters are greater than the acceptable norms of the Nation's race. E.g. vampires are stronger than humanly possible, and steal life. -Commanders are charismatic units, capable of leading. -Mages command the powers of magic; wizards, shaman, witches, warlocks, etc.. For discussion purposes I will use Humans as the example National race, and Light Infantry as the base unit for comparison. Referential statistics follow. Lt Inf Militia HV Inf hp---10------8------10 st---10------8------10 att--10------8------10 def--12------8------12 mor--10------8------10 mr---10------8------10 pre--10-----10------10 arm--09------8------13 dge--03-----03------06 gold-10-----07------10 res--10-----07------16 ------ Militia stats run 20% less on the skill side, except precision. They are cost 30% less gold. Their armor provides ~10% less protection, and their weapon is the same for dge and both have the useful repel ability. They do not have javelins. They cost 30% less resources (metal, leather, production time and skill). -2hp -2st -2att -2def -2mor -2mr = -3gold -1prot -javelin = -3res This doesn't Heavy Infantry stats are the same on the skill side, and they cost the same gold-wise. Resource-wise, HI have 35% better armor, and much better weapons, but no repel and no javelins. Resource cost is 60% higher. +4 pnts armor +3 pnts weapon -javelin = +6res. That seems to make sense. A javelin is worth 1res. 1pnt armor is 1res. 1pt wep dge is 1res. Conclusion is that we have light, normal, and heavy units. Light units cost disproportionately less. Normal units cost normal amounts. Heavy units cost disproportionately more. So far we have: Light------militia normal-----lt infantry, hv infantry heavy------none yet, let's examine one Black Knight hp------15 st------13 att-----12 def-----09 mor-----15 mr------09 pre-----10 arm-----24 dge-----20/8/6 gold----60 res-----70 +5hp +3st +2att -1def +5mor -1mr = +50 gold +14arm +11dge +lance = +60res GOLD ==== Ok, here's the theory for unit stat cost in gold. Unit stats include: hp, st, att, def, mor, mr, pre. ================================== 7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost (drones, peasants, conscripted, slaves) 10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost (normal range of average to elite) 13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost (elite to amazing) 16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost (supermen, ubermenchen, genetic prodigies, monsters) 20-29 pnts skill = 4X cost (powerful monsters) 30-40 pnts skill = 6X cost (super powerful monsters) 41+ = 8X cost (unique critters) ================================== E.g. new unit Elite Heavy Infantry. All stats the same except ST 12 and ATT 12 would cost 10 +2 +2 = 14gold. E.g. New Unit Super Elite Heavy Infantry. St 15, Att 15, HP 15; 10 + 5X1.5 +5X1.5 +5X1.5 = 33gold. Resources behave similarly to gold, but on a different metric. Here's the theory for unit resource cost: ==================== 0-8 light X0.75 9-11 average X1.00 12-20 heavy X1.50 21-29 super X2.00 30-40 amazing X3.00 ==================== E.g. Black Knights: 10res base +(24-10)armX2 +(21-10)dgeX2 +lance = 70res 10res base +28+22+X=70res A Lance seems to be worth 10res. Which makes sense for the damage it does; although it is listed as 3res in the excellent Items Guide. New Unit Example--The fabled Steel Battalion. The iron pillar that holds up the Bedrock of the new nation of Conans. An incredibly elite Super Heavy Infantry, full of weight lifting, 7 foot tall, supermen who push the envelope of humanity. Here are this proud group's stats: hp 18 st 18 att 18 def 18 mor 18 mr 18 pre 10 arm 26 dge 20 This looks like standard stats for the people who used to bring pre-rolled characters and try to get into my DnD games. Anyways, let's add Conan's new unit here up and estimate the unit cost according to the chart's guidelines. 10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold 10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res That sounds about right. Remember, though, these are guidelines. If it fits in thematically that the unit should cost more or less, a 10% difference is very acceptable. This does not count in special powers like repel, lance, regenerate, ethereal, magic dge, poison dge, fire aura, fear, awe, etc. These follow. Fear Costs 1-4 6gold/pnt 5-9 9gold/pnt 10-14 12gold/pnt 15-19 15gold/pnt E.g. If we give the fabled Steel Battalion listed above a Fear aura of 5, we would add 4X6+1X9=33gold Bringing the SB total to 139gold/76res. Advanced Characteristics and Costs ================================== There are a multitude of talents and characteristics that add to either resources or gold cost for a unit. These are dealt with in detail in the Summary Addendum following. Here's the basic rationale: ethereal units are special, they know it, so they charge more for their service. If the ethereality is a built-in talent, it is not one that resources can create; therefore, it is a gold trait. Now, if you were outfitting a unit with Robes of Darkness, then it would be a resource hog, requiring magical gems, wizard skills and time, and all kinds of threads, weaving, cloth, thimbles, etc.--and you would charge gold and resources for it. A good example would be: new unit, rhino/man hybrid heavy infantry, has thick skin like full leather armor, giving him natural protection of 7. This is a gold cost. Rhino-Infantry also has an enchanted sword, which is a magical weapon (air level X, costing Y gems). The sword would cost gold and resources. The exact amount can be determined by the simple formula in the Summary Addendum. SUMMARY ADDENDUM ====================== ====================== Lt Inf Militia HV Inf Black Knight Steel Battalion hp---10------8------10------15------18 st---10------8------10------13------18 att--10------8------10------12------18 def--12------8------12------09------18 mor--10------8------10------15------18 mr---10------8------10------09------18 pre--10-----10------10------10------10 arm--09------8------13------24------26 dge--03-----03------06------20/8/6--20 gold-10-----07------10------60-----106 res--10-----07------16------70------76 GOLD ================================== 7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost (drones, peasants, conscripted, slaves) 10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost (normal range of average to elite human) 13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost (elite to amazing human, monsters) 16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost (supermen, ubermenchen, genetic prodigies, powerful monsters) 20-29 pnts skill = 4X cost (very powerful monsters) 30-40 pnts skill = 6X cost (super powerful monsters) 41+ = 8X cost (unique critters) ================================== Steel Battalion Example: 10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold ReSOURCES ====================== 0-8 light X0.75 9-11 average X1.00 12-20 heavy X1.50 21-29 super X2.00 30-40 amazing X3.00 41+ insane X5.00 ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res Fear Costs ====================== 1-4 6gold/pnt (undead lord, minor demon, necromancer) 5-9 9gold/pnt (undead king, med demon, high level necromancer) 10-14 12gold/pnt (major demon, psionic thing from beyond) 15-19 15gold/pnt (demon nobility, major gibbering horror from beyond) 20+ 20gold/pnt (world-destroying menace all pretenders should band up against) ====================== Steel Battalion Example: Fear 5 = 4X6+1X9=33gold. Bringing the SB total to 139gold/76res Awe ====================== 1-4 4g/pnt Awe has been described as a personal force field effect. 5-9 9g/pnt It is light in effect at low levels, but very powerful in force. 10-14 15g/pnt 15-19 20g/pnt 20+ 30g/pnt ====================== Ethereal ====================== 10% more gold ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 139base gold X 1.10 = 153gold Regeneration ====================== X% X% more gold (werewolf has regen 10%, Tarasque has 60%) ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 10% regeneration; 153g X 1.10 = 168g Resistance (fire, cold, poison, shock) ====================== 1-25 flat 3 gold 26-50 flat 6 gold 51-75 flat 9 gold 76-100 flat 12 gold ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 100% fire res; 168g +12g = 180g Mounted ====================== +10 gold adds 10ap, and 1-2 province travel points ====================== Animal ====================== 0 ====================== Amphibian ====================== 20% more gold ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 180g X 1.20 = 216g Aquatic ====================== -5 ====================== Pooramphibian ====================== 10% more gold ====================== Flying ====================== 15 gold adds 1-2 province travel points ====================== neednoteat ====================== 5 gold ====================== heal ====================== I am not sure what this does. Heal unit only, or heal all units in stack? ====================== Heat ====================== 5 gold ====================== Cold ====================== 5 gold ====================== Trample ====================== 5 gold ====================== Immobile ====================== -5 gold ====================== Immortal ====================== +50% ====================== Iceprot ====================== ?? ====================== Poisonarmor ====================== ====================== Holy ====================== +33% (official word is +50%, but I think that is too much) ====================== Berserk ====================== +1g/pnt (max berserk value should be def value, imho) ====================== Illusion ====================== ?? ====================== Stealthy ====================== +5g stealth units cannot have metal armor ====================== Spy ====================== same as stealth? ====================== Assassin ====================== +5gp ====================== Noitem ====================== -5gold ====================== Coldblood ====================== -5gp ====================== Inanimate ====================== +5gp ====================== Magicbeing ====================== 0g ====================== Undead ====================== 0gp ====================== Blind ====================== 5gp ====================== Eyes ====================== 1 -5gp 2 0gp 3-4 3gp 5+ 10gp ====================== Eyeloss ====================== 5gp ====================== Horrormark ====================== 5gp ====================== Entangle ====================== 5gp ====================== Fireshield ====================== 5gp+1/dge pnt ====================== Poisoncloud ====================== 5gp+1/dge pnt ====================== Diseasecloud ====================== 5gp+1/dge pnt ====================== Item Costs ========== F=# fire gems E=# earth gems As=# astral gems D=# death gems N=# nature gems Ai=# air gems B=# blood slaves X=Total cost in gems=(1.5F)+(1.25E)+(0.75As)+D+N+Ai L=Level of construction=(1,2,4,6 or 8) Gold cost = G = 4*X Ressource cost = R = 8*(L+B/10) Example: Fire Sword Gold price=4*5*1.5= 30 gold Resource price = 8*1= 8 resources Example: Hellsword Gold price = 4*10*2= 80 gold Resource price = 8*(6+1)= 56 resources |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
With respect, if you're going to go against the majority opinion regarding the value of Sacred (and it's "Sacred", not "Holy", "Holy" is a special magic path), then I think you're going to have to explain/justify why you think it's only worth 33% rather than 50% (which is what IW, myself, and many others feel is about right; some people feel even 60-75% is justified for some units). Simply saying it's too much isn't helpful. (Personally, I think a Jotun Woodsman at 50g is too expensive, as are Nifel giants, but obviously IW thinks they aren't.) So if you're going to change things, it's incumbent on you to explain in greater detail why you think they should be changed.
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Arryn,
Thanks. Sacred, not Holy. Sigh. Lots of problems with it, and I appreciate you pointing them out. No sarcasm intended. I noted that it was my opinion, and that the official word was 50%. How about I reverse it? I will note the cost as 50%, but IMHO it should be 35%. I think that is how I will handle any unofficial vs. official discrepancies. In any case, the whole thing should be taken with a grain of salt. It is unofficial, and merely guidelines. Albeit, what everyone has done so far seems pretty accurate! One thing I might do if I have time is make a smaller guidebook with less complicated rules. It might be less accurate, but it would be easier for beginners to pick up modding from. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
BTW, someone a while back (Zen or Cherry?) pointed out that some skills are worth far more than others. MR and morale are worth a LOT more than strength or attack. Protection is worth more than defense. I see that the list still has the same cost for all skills. This really should be adjusted in the manner that was suggested by whomever originally pointed it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Arryn, I'd love to see some debate about it. Two people opined that ST and ATT were not very important, but Def definitely was. Other characteristics were mentioned as well. I am unsure if that is true.
E.g. 1 on 1 attack, Def and Arm are both just about as important. 2 on 1, Def becomes less important as it is less effective; in this case, armor would be more important than defense skill. 3 on 1, Def becomes even less effective, while I believe armor still works against all attackers. This makes me think Att and Def are just as important, and Armor is more important, so should cost more. Someone suggested that natural protection should be more expensive than artificial protection. I am unsure if they meant this in a game-balance way, or as in it is hard to have natural armor equivalent to plate armor--very hard. So it should cost more. I would love for people to kick these ideas around, provide examples, etc. We'd all learn from it, and I will add it in as it makes sense to me. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
After a brief comparison between similar units found in the different nations I think one can safely assume that there is no built in formula in unit cost.
Take a look at the various priest units of the human factions. Stats are readily comparable but costs don't follow a logical pattern. I assume that Illwinter considered more factors then just stats and abilities. Making a detailed guide seems to be a very difficult task. I could not come up with a cost for "Heal" when I tried using the current formula on the Arcosephale Priestess. I can only hope that one of the Illwinter team finds the time to comment on this thread since they surely had some kind of plan when they created units. Most units got nice round costs in gold indicating an estimated value rather than a formula though. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Good point. I think a smaller, easier to use, less accurate, in-the-ballpark, guidebook would be better for most people. With a lot of general advice. A section on game-balance. Another section on thematic unity. And a couple of good examples.
Looking back over what has been done before, it all looks too difficult for most people to use. Simpler, cleaner, more general.... |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
As Wauthan said, there is no formula. We have some guidlines, but some thematic considerations and a good portion of common sense are needed.
Special abilities are not given costs. Use your own judgement, but remember that a special power is several times as powerful when given to a commander. Seraphs of Caelum cost about 75% of what they should do according to the guidelines (and they have powerful special abilities). Pans are very expensive, but have more hitpoints and special abilities. Pans of New Era are less powerful and do not have the maenad ability. They still cost the same. Tip: Make every unit too expensive at first. It is easier to discover imbalances on the negative side of the spectrum. A powerful unit is nice to watch, but it is rather difficult to tell yourself that your new favourite is too powerful. If you give it a high cost it is not that hard to lower the cost when you discover that the unit is too expensive. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
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[ March 08, 2004, 10:41: Message edited by: Bossemanden ] |
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