On Hold
 

[ March 01, 2004, 09:59: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: On Hold
 

Did you forget something? Like a link ...

BTW, if you emailed me a copy, I haven't gotten it yet.

Re: On Hold
 

[ March 01, 2004, 09:58: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, my BF had this nice domain with 500Mb of space just sitting there unused, so I thought "What the heck, I'll put it to a good purpose. Perhaps it'll even motivate him to pay me some attention. I'd even settle for tearing him away from his hobbies to play me a game or three of Dom!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: On Hold
 

Zen's really nice-looking (and I mean really nice) Europe map is available for d/l from my site. Come and get it!

I am hosting the map files in .RAR format because .ZIP just plain sucks at compressing .tga files. I'll be posting a link on my site, or a file, for .rar unpacking for those that run linux, so don't worry.

Re: On Hold
 

Arryn, if I may make a small suggestion...

Beside each map and graphics mods (e.g. the Unwise flag), maybe you can add a small (file-size-wise) sample/preview image/thumbnail or two, so people can take a sneak look before downloading them to decide if they want it, especially for the biggish maps.

For example, I'd like to take a quick look at Zen's map, but don't want to download the whole 15.5mb file just to do that, even if I could do that in 2 minutes or so... This would be very appreciated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

O.k., I lied. I did decide to download the map, since I can afford a few more minutes of sleep deprivation. But it seemed you linked it incorrectly. It was linked to the newworld.rar, i.e. the new world map by Torvak, or was it Leif... (Probably a common copy & pasting error) Anyway, just so your know. Guess I'll check the map out sometime later... Time to Zzz...

Just some random incoherent thoughts ^_^

-Gateway103

Re: On Hold
 

[ March 01, 2004, 09:58: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: On Hold
 

Arryn,
Your link to Zen's map isn't working - in fact it's a copy of the link to Torvak's NewWorld map ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Fix it or at least post here the filename so we can d/l it ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A copy/paste and forget to update error, yes. It's fixed now and working.

Re: On Hold
 

Whaow, super fast service !
Thanks Arryn ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
And Zen too ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Now we have two beautiful "real world" maps to play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen and I have an open AIM channel at the moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And next time, give me a chance to respond to the first bug report. hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: On Hold
 

Arryn,
Sorry for the inconvenience, I posted w/o reading the first report ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Zen,
You're a plagiarist : this map is copied from another famous game ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Now make a Japan map pleeeasee ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Truly very very nice done ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: On Hold
 

[ March 01, 2004, 09:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: On Hold
 

1. Zen sent me a revised .map file for his map. I've provided a small link for those that have already grabbed the .rar so they don't have to d/l again. I am currently uploading a revised .rar file for those that have not gotten it yet. It will take ~15 minutes before it's ready, so I suggest you wait until then to grab the whole archive if you need it.

2. Check out the thumbnails, for those who asked ...

Re: On Hold
 

Okay, the revised .RAR file is now up on my site ...

Re: On Hold
 

I doubt the makers of (editted out) would approve of the use of their code in a competitor's product without permission or compensation.

In the end, it would benefit Illwinter and Dominions 2. Illwinter would be advised not to post the map on their website.

Nice map though,
Aikamun

[ March 01, 2004, 10:36: Message edited by: Aikamun ]

Re: On Hold
 

[ March 01, 2004, 09:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: On Hold
 

Heh, if you're going to plagiarize M:TW's map for Europe, why not go plagiarize Shogun:TW for Japan? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 01, 2004, 09:44: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: On Hold
 

Even as a derivative work, who's legality is questionable, especially under draconian law such as the DMCA, lifting the map from another game violates any pretense of "fair use" clauses in old copyright law.

However, until such time as I get a "cease and desist" notice, I'll maintain the file on my site. I'm not IW, a for-profit organization, so I'm far less likely to annoy the lawyers.

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not you they'll have issues with, assuming they do, but any site that does hosting of a questionable item.

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">INAL, but I would recommend against doing that. You can be held legally responsible, and you might, at least in theory, receive a harsher reaction than an e-mail telling you to take it down. Potentially you might even implicate Illwinter and Shrapnel since, because of this thread, it can be argued that they were likely to know about the violation.

What you should do is to take the map down for now, and send a polite request to the company who own the copyright to be allowed to use the modified map. I doubt you will receive anything but a polite but firm no, but that's still my advice.

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It was taken down a half-hour ago, and Zen has already sent another email.

Re: On Hold
 

Don't think Illwinter could be held responsible for a third party's actions. If they could, it would be too easy to sabotage / short sell / extort a company. Illwinter should not advertise, host, or promote any questionable files.

Aikamun

[ March 01, 2004, 11:47: Message edited by: Aikamun ]

Re: On Hold
 

I'm not that afraid of any issues, frankly claiming rights to a map of Europe would be pure BS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
In addition the map WAS changed, so to me Zen is the map's rightholder, and if he's OK I'll host it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . Those interested can PM or mail me.

Re: On Hold
 

Zen is not okay with the idea, and it was he who specifically asked me to break the link on my site. I abide by the wishes of the author.

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, case closed. How could I know, Zen erased his Posts ?
I find all of this very stupid, everyone is scared to death as soon as the word "copyright" is pronounced. Another lame US trend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: On Hold
 

Lame but true; and I believe similar laws are being considered for the EU. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: On Hold
 

Hey, it's not my fault that the US has more lawyers per capita than any other country. I happen to agree with Shakespeare with regard to lawyers ...

Re: On Hold
 

I had a similar conundrum when looking for unit graphics. Since there are a fair amount of fansites dedicated to "abandoned" games, meaning they are so old that they no longer present on the shelves in the shops, I thought I could copy some of their graphics to use in this game.

But I got cold feet after a few units. I got sort of burned in the small artists against Baldurs Gate portraits flamewar and I have no wish to get those kind of e-mail any time soon.

Perhaps Illwinter could add one or two guidelines up that we could follow?

Re: On Hold
 

As far as who does or does not care about copyright laws I think you will find that a publisher of games (you know, the ones that own this discussion forum) might have their own stand on it so I wouldnt advise a discussion on whether or not copyrights in general should be followed. The rest of us can probably afford to be alittle careful when it comes to other peoples possible liabilites.
Oh yeah, and its not law that is to be feared here. Its lawsuits. And lawsuits tend to include distributers.

As to the map, I havent seen it. However, copyright tends to apply to claiming ownership of a complete work. If you use pieces, or give proper credit (at least dont take credit), then you are usually safe enough unless notified otherwise. I suspect that using a map image in another game would not constitute a real copyright problem if you leave any signatures in place on the image but again I dont know the particulars on this one.

However, I am still very interested in any other game where the map icons (trees, mountains, rivers) are about the right size for us. And especially if that game has a map generator software.

[ March 01, 2004, 13:40: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: On Hold
 

What I don't understand is why Zen deleted all his Posts in this thread...

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither did I. I'd really want to know Zen's opinion about this, as I find stupid that map isn't hosted.
I have the map, I can host it, and as I don't even know Zen's real name he has nothing to fear, I won't betray him to the e-KGB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif !

[ March 01, 2004, 18:38: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: On Hold
 

I just make passive resistance to US trends, ya know, I'm French http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I refuse to rise to this bait ...

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Copyright isn't a particularly US trend. In fact, the USA was one of the slouches of the Western world when it cames to copyright laws and joining the international agreements.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And then along comes the fascist, Orwellian, DMCA and the US once again leads the world. I think it was better when we were behind ...

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps so, but then that really doesn't enter into this situation.

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The DMCA is precisely why Zen pulled the plug, so it does bear.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, INAL, but I don't see how the DMCA enters into this situation. I doubt that extracting an image-file from a game can be considered to be circumventing anti-piracy protections.

Re: On Hold
 

The DMCA isn't just about anti-piracy protections. I suggest you do a Google search on the subject and study it for yourself if you are interested. However, I'm not interested in debating at the moment what it does or does not cover. Especially not in this forum.

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, INAL, but I don't see how the DMCA enters into this situation. I doubt that extracting an image-file from a game can be considered to be circumventing anti-piracy protections. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find the situation totally ridiculous : do you think Activision will file Zen because he used a MAP OF EUROPE image taken from MTW to make a free map for Dominions - a game that has maybe a couple thousands players - and advertised it on a small board, not much more popular than a suburb game shop http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ?
This has nothing to do with piracy, and bears no loss to the publisher either ...
Maybe they would fine him 3 bucks ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
C'mon, men, be serious, firms and lawyers have more lucrative occupations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: On Hold
 

It's unfortunate that Zen decided to erase his Posts in this thread. Good or bad, this thread is a lesson for other potential mapmakers in the future. Damn shame though, because I clearly see why he wanted to use this map. It's both very functional and good looking. But I can also understand the wish from the creators of the image.

What confuses me is where Zen got hold of such a highresolution image if it was not readily available for download? I didn't catch the origin of the piece and now it's gone.

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He took the MTW campaign map : it is an high-res TGA (38 Mb or so) file that is installed with the game.
BTW the MTW VI expansion has a very nice British Isles campaign map also http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: On Hold
 

Zen did not take the map from the game in question. As best I recall, it was sent to him by an un-named 3rd party. Then he modified it for Dom usage.

[ March 01, 2004, 12:53: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: On Hold
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I don't really believe it's likely that there would have been any legal repercussions over it - except perhaps a cease and desist notice (which doesn't really have any legal status as such). However, I'm more concerned about the principle of the thing than the possibility for punishment. I believe it's both right and in the long run better that we (the Dominions community) try to keep our path clean, and this was a case that would have been a clear copyright violation.

No, the outline and geography of Europe is of course not under copyright, but this was a particular artistic reendition of it, which is.

Remember, copyright law is what protects Illwinter and Shrapnel Games and keeps them in buisness, as well as any artistic endeavours you or I might decide to pursue. I think it behooves us to respect the copyright of others the way we want our own copyright to be respected.

Re: On Hold
 

My ISP has been down since this morning and I have only just barely had the time at work to be able to look at the Boards. I didn't want any sort of contraversy.

The reason I deleted my Posts was not out of fear of copyright laws, illegal use of other's intellectual property or anything of that nature (for any reason). But because I feel the respect due to people's work should be dealt with in the proper fashion.

The Case: If I feel my work is important enough to warrant a Copyright I feel it is important enough to deserve the reservation and credit due.

I respect that case and support it wholeheartedly, even if it isn't particularly large or for non-profit or anything of that nature. I respect the author of the M:TW map and his effort and time he put into whatever portion I used to create my map.

In order for me to appropriately show that respect, I will wait for any reservations or provisions that they may or may not have. The first Email I recieved from M:TW (Before the map was completed) was ambigious and seemed sort of little importance to them, though they did not specifically give me permission to use or edit their map.

I sent a more direct Email detailing everything about what I have done and other issues. But as I said, my email is down, so I have no way of knowing if they have responded.

If in the end; they do not wish to have their map used (and credited to them, even a little free publicity) as a fan-based, non-profit map for a competitor's game, then I will respect their wishes.

If they do, I'll authorize the reposting of the map and give the appropriate amount of credits in the appropriate fashion to do so.

I actually thought of this all before I finished the map; but due to the feedback I rethought it and wanted a more clear answer from those who own the intellectual rights, so that proper respect is given.