Caelum questions, both themes.
 

I have to admit, I'm entranced by Caelum.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of how to use their armies more effectively - I've been having decent success having my archers fire at the closest enemy while having a gaggle of regular troops hold and then attack rearmost. And the distance from which they can attack provinces (and the fact that they can fly over tough provinces altogether, to head for a juicier target) is very, very nice.

However, I am sort of at a loss as to how to capitalize on Caelum's strengths mid-to-late game. Caelum's fighters are not physically very strong, nor well-protected in more temperate climates, nor is their morale high. Their only sacred non-commander units don't fly, and the Return of the Raptors theme doesn't even get Temple Guards...so obviously bless strategies are out of the question. Wingless, for a capitol-only unit, are worse than worthless.

With other nations, I'll occasionally stack higher-morale units in each squad to help with the morale checks...but with Caelum's low-morale regulars, and without good sacred units, this doesn't work very well - at least not in my limited experience.

Summons via the Conjuration path might work well, but those require relatively early research to get decent ones - and it's difficult to get researching when your SC pretender is out helping the weak Caelum armies eke out small victories. Wind Guide is outstanding, but with Storm Generals you are severely limited as to the number of Blizzard Warriors/standard archers you can bring to the party, if you want them to be at *all* protected by a line or two of foot troops on hold...so the benefit tends to be negated somewhat.

I have noticed that my success tends to be better with the Lady of Fortune than with other pretenders, but I still have some trouble taking even small provinces due to retreats (which, with flying units, are *immediate*) and to the low squad-size capabilities of Storm Generals (who I love, but dearly wish had the ability to take 50 troops rather than 25 with them at the start).

How do other Caelum players overcome Caelum's weaknesses and capitalize on their strengths? I think they're my favorite nation thus far (in terms of theme, and in the *theory* of how their armies should work) but I have some serious long-term viability problems using them.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Mammoths are your friends.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mammoths are nice, but:

(1) Their morale is bloody awful, so they rout and mow down my paper-thin archers, and;
(2) Having even one of them under your commander negates your ability to attack faraway provinces at will.

Coincidentally, (2) is also the reason I don't field a whole lot of Temple Guards...aside from the fact that they are enormously expensive resource-wise for what they do, they take away my entire advantage of surprise and being able to pick and choose indie provinces to attack.

Do you find that Mammoths make up for Caelum's shortcomings in the mid-to-late game as well, or do you really only find them useful during early expansion?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check the morale on Wingless.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wingless + Mammoth.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't use fliers exclusively. That's just a losing proposition - as you've pointed out, they're too fragile. Add ground based units such as Mammoth + Wingless squads (I do a 1:2 ratio, usually 5 mammoths 10 wingless), independant archers, and screens of temple guards. Use pure flier units to harrass the enemy while your ground pounders attack the front lines.

I don't get your complaint about not being able to research; Caelum has the absolute cheapest high level mages in the game. High Seraphim are only 175 gold! Buy them! Lots of them! If you took a magic scale, just use the lower ones for researching, they're even more cost effective.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

If you are trying to use only Caelum troops then mid-late game will be bad for you. Learn to use the independents you can make. Add knights, barbarian chiefs, javelineers. Especially when you are outside the cold of your dominion.

SPeaking of which.. You have sneaky 3-lvl priests who can travel easily (flying). Learn to use them. Keep a ring of them hidden just outside the edges of your empire. PUSH the dominion.

Caelums advantage in mid-late game is having a great support/supply system. You can quickly reinforce troops, gems, magic items, slaves not to mention priests and mages.

The AI of Caelum is an irritant with its use of "Call of the Wind". You should be able to be a better, smarter irritant.

[ March 02, 2004, 17:50: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Hum, I consider Caelum to be one of the best nations out there.

They have access to very synergetic paths, (Water and Air). Mammoth and Wingless go well with Storm/Mist/Arrow Fend.

You use your fliers as harrassers and raiders. Taking out provincea and driving up unrest, while crippling economy.

Mid game you should be using heavy summons in order to suppliment your armies (Sea Trolls, Spring Hawks).

Last but not least, always take Heart of Winter with your dominion with base Caelum, as you fight much better with Cold 3 enviroment. It is also a good idea to use Wolven Winter for large battles (multiple casts will drive down the temperature of a province).

Edit; Usually my initial armies start out with 3 Mammoths, 11 Wingless. Then I add in another Mammoth for every 4 Wingless and try to keep them at that ratio. I rarely have those types of squads break even taking heavy wingless losses, or losing a mammoth or two.

[ March 02, 2004, 18:16: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Thanks for the replies, folks!

I wasn't so much complaining (although it certainly could have appeared that way, now that I reread my initial post) as I was saying "what am I doing wrong?"

Clearly, my thought that I was supposed to use my flyers as my "main army" was incorrect, and thanks to everyone who pointed out that Wingless and Mammoths make a mighty nice combo. I had neglected to notice the Wingless' sky-high morale.

A question, given your strategies listed below - do you usually build SC pretenders for Caelum, or more research/forging/summoning-oriented pretenders? It sounds like you might be able to do either, based on the use of Wingless/Mammoths and fliers as raiders & harassment.

Thank you all again for the advice - keep it coming if you have other interesting ideas to share! I really do appreciate it.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

There are lots of ways to go with Caelum, due to their variety of strengths.

With only summons availiable to make into decent combatants, one common way is to focus on blood (since ID's make such great combatants).

Since Caelum is one of the few nations with access to a Natarajah, they are a common SC (especially since you already have Air and Water items covered for forging).

An important factor for using Caelum is getting a Wizard's Tower, if you plan on using alot of Iceclads (why wouldn't you?). So you can throw up towers quick and effectively every few provinces in order to churn them out. They gather easy and are easy to reinforce.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item. Combined with his already mediocre base encumberance of 3, your own cold 3 dominion will quickly put him face down in the dirt without cold resist.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good tip, thank you. Luckily I can get a Ring of Frost cranked out with my first mage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 02, 2004, 20:28: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great, Zen - thanks for the advice. Now off to the testing board... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen, do you tend to go Blood with the Return of the Raptors theme as well, or just with base Caelum? The differences in theme are very subtle (but significant), and I would think that RotR would go more with battlefield summons (because of the Harab Seraphs' Death/Earth levels) than with ritual summons. But I'm not sure, since I'm still learning soooo much about this game on a daily basis (only had the full Version since mid-February)...how do you usually build an RotR pretender?

By the way, I again want to thank everybody who has posted in this thread so far...I started a little "test scenario" based on this information at lunchtime and was very impressed with the difference! Kudos to you all for helping out a newbie like me, who can stare something in the face and still not realize exactly what's going on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 02, 2004, 23:01: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To be quite honest, I dislike the RotR theme instensely. Other than losing the very powerful High Seraph, what you gain in the Harab Elder is little. You lose Seraphine but the Harab Elder isn't even standard able to cast Sermon of Courage. You have good forging paths, and can cast Summon Valkaries (with a Storm and Storm Power, or an item) but you don't have any sort of random pick so you're very locked into what you can do. You have access to alot of economically killing spells (blight and Hurricane) but they just don't feel good to me because of their heavy priest power loss.

The Raven Guard are good (especially if you plan on fighting outside your dominion, and cold) but I still rely on standard wingless/mammoth armies (now that temple guard are gone) and rely even more on indy HI and others with a little protection for land armies.

The basic strategy of having multiple raiding parties still stays the same; but you lose alot of magical power.

The pretender is even more important in RotR than in base Caelum, because of this. And I rely moreso on summons (especially mindless/high morale) than caleum has to, and this can leave you overall, weaker than base Caelum.

It doesn't change the playstyle of Caelum much, which in my opinion, makes for a less attractive theme since it doesn't change how you think about the nation.

For a Pretender I would look at either a VQ or a Son of Neifel for Blood type of situations, or something that would use Bane Lords, so something that can make Jade Armor and maybe astral.

[ March 03, 2004, 04:09: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A drain scale is a bad idea with Caelum. Mages are their strength, and they don't have access to communion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's no reason to make a mage your prophet, since they can only cast one spell at a time anyways.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Graeme has a good point, but I don't know how big of an effect drain 1 has to the fatique costs of spells. Can anyone give some advice? I think it is something like 10% more fatique per spell cast, but that is more of a guess than anything else.

If Seraphines still have holy-3 in DomII then you should make one of them a prophet. Fanaticism is just wonderful. And having a prophet in raiding party might help if you don't have other way to get a flying priest who can cast Sermon of Courage or Fanaticism, but it is risky. Because of that, you should not send a prophet unless that raiding party is very important.

BtW, would Return of the Raptors be more interesting if they *started* the game with Call of the Winds? Or, if possible, a new spell 'Murder of Crows' that would double CotW in every way except that the birds in it would be crows? I have always liked the sound of that, and it seems thematically fitting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

- Caelum fights well in the cold, so having a very high dominion strength (8-9) and using your pretender and prophet on the front lines to spread it seems reasonable to me.

Pros and Cons. That would be using your dominion offensively. Which is a perfectly good tactic but it does lessen your ability to use independents. There is also using your dominion defensively. Not forcing it outward but using it as a circle of powerful cold around the inner part of your empire. Slightly different tactic which allows for more use of independents.

- If your dominion strength is high anyway, then use your scales as well as the effect of the scales depend on the dominion strength as well: Order 2, Prod 2, Cold -3, Growth 2, Luck 1, Magic -1. Maybe Prod or Growth 3. No theme.

Magic -1? I think Caelum is a decent magic nation. Personally I would find it hard to play in a neg-magic domain. But again that use can depend on whether you plan to push your dominion in front of you or have it follow along behind you.

- I choose the 60-point Castle. Caelum troops are quick, so a strong fortification allows me to bring in helping troops from the outside in case of sieges, without lossing the accopanying temple/lab. (But I have to think about that wizard tower again...good point!)

For some nations the units they get, particularly commanders, can be very important. For those nations I seriously consider the 2 cheapest castles. Sometimes I need more castles to build commanders in than I need the resources pulled to one castle (I choose those when armored troops are the important item to build)

- This leaves no design points for magic, and since I need a strong front-line pretender I decided to take the Blue Dragon with no additional magic. (I agree that cold resistance is a must have for the caelum pretender!)

I know all my variations are point-costing and not much in giving any back. But just a point to consider. If you give some magic to the blue dragon (3 I think?) then you will be able to enter the water with it and cast some low-level water spells. This can be handy for getting a quick handle on some water.

True, this renders blessing useless, but my sneaky preachers serve other purposes anyway and I dont like those temple guards anyway. I'd rather build more mammoths and wingless if I want a non flying army.

Good logic.

I'm usually not sure who I am going to turn into my prophet. A mage who accompanies my front line troops? A seraphine for stealth? I think that having a prophet-strom general in raiding party is a bad idea, as my raiding parties usually wont return home...

The only reason I make a mage into a prophet is to get a single person able to do most of the site-searching that I feel is absolutely necessary. If Im not going for bless-effects then I have a bad habit of moving my prophet beyond the dominion too fast which makes his prophetness more harmful to him than good.

I dont like building non-caelum troops. As long as I manage to fight in the cold, I feel fine. Why hire other archers? Money is rarely a problem, and caelum archers require only 4 resources and are quite effective, so I dont want to build other archers. Protecting my archers is done with thos spire horn warriors.

Ahhh that supports much of your other decisions. Your logic is good on everything you are doing. Not how I would play Caelum but thats one of the great things about this game.


So far I have only battled against normal AI's, but i intend to start a game with local friends soon. What do you think, how will they beat me up?

People who like Caelum think they need to consider fire nations like Abyssia or Marignon as being their biggest worry. I find that Jotunheim gives me much more of a problem. Giants that dont mind my cold domain? On the other hand, Jotun can be a great neighbor if you ally.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, my experience is very limited...but it seems to me that the best way to make RotR more interesting is, as Zen said, to give it something which makes it more unique from the base Caelum theme and which would give you an entirely different style of play. To that effect, I would perhaps consider making Raven Guards sacred (since they are both elite and unique, it makes sense that they would be held in the highest regard by Raptor society) and also making Wingless sacred (and costing a bit more gold). Why Wingless? Because they are outcastes - and the Raptors have just returned to power after centuries of the same treatment. So they might see in Wingless an analogy of their past situation, and idealize it (and the weak shall become strong, etc.)

This would give RotR the effect of being a strong nation for bless effects (raiding parties with Fire 9? Sounds good to me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) - and I think everyone in this thread has agreed that base Caelum is not a nation one generally considers when thinking about bless strategies...so a modified RotR offers something substantially different and equally enjoyable. It would be somewhat like the flying Version of the Last of the Tuatha theme for Man. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On another note, I've tested out a number of scenarios Last night with base Caelum and have been very happy with the results. Thank you all again for your kind advice and help.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

I'm a contrarian on Caleum. I typically play with
Dominion 7-8 Order 3 Prod 3 Growth 3 Drain 3 Cold 3
Fortified city and Vampire queen

Depending on my dominion I'll bump up the VQ to 4 death and 4 blood.

I find she does well getting you started, she's cold immune and immortal. Placing the vampires she attracts with mammoths and other caleum units really helps with the routing problems. I tend to aggressively push my dominion out using stealth preaching. I view my dominion as my most important weapon, with the cold enhancing my troops stats, keeping my pretender immortal, and hindering most other unit types. Jotheim can be a big problem, the cheap, fast, good priests tend to cancel out Ermor but Jotheim requires attacking in force to cut their supply lines. Frequently the AI chooses to place Jotheim as a retarded younger brother to Ermor, but when it chooses effect starting picks it can be quite competitive. Abysia is toast after the early game. I can kill its leaders, rendering summer lions ineffective. A mage attacking the rear, casting breath of winter can be devestating.

A big thing I find about Caleum is that you need to build, build, build. The units are cheap, you can amass huge nodal armies in your fortified cities (with give you the supplies to maintian them). An enemy attacks, you swarm him with every unit in range. Then you return to your supply base the next turn when your troops begin to starve. I usually expand my empire with an attack army composed of temple guards, ice clads for attacking the rear, and my pretender. I don't attack a province unless it has at least +1 dominion. Later in the game, I use an arch angel with the ark, and only temple guards set to hold and attack. The ark will destroy an army a hundred or more times bigger if you can stand your ground.

Anyway, some of my random ramblings on Caleum.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Heh, an "Ark Angel" ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Zot! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Any comments (positive or negative, though hopefully constructive in either case http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) about my ideas for the Return of the Raptors theme?

Base Caelum appears to be a nation with a great amount of flexibility, given the very different strategies which have been mentioned in this thread already. This is great stuff; keep it coming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

how do you kill abysia's leaders?
with the fire dome the mages that cast the spells die and you can't make a fire immunity ring with those picks or the standard caelum mages.

Fire summons are weak, blood summons on the other hand.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

I think he meant that he can slaughter abysian mages in battle.

[ March 03, 2004, 16:33: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

A question: can iceclads fly in storm?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Speaking of Return of the Raptors, has anyone noticed they get seraphines in their PD forces? Is this a bug?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Speaking of Seraphines, has anyone noticed how powerful Ceremonial Faith is with stealthy level 3 priests?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A good question. I know Storm Guards and Storm Generals can, but I can fire up Dom II at lunch and test it with Iceclads.

[ March 03, 2004, 18:55: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">how? i haven't seen any good combat wind spells.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">how? i haven't seen any good combat wind spells. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, Storm (and a couple of other air spells too, if I remember correctly) makes fire magic more difficult to use, as well as making projectiles of all kinds less accurate. So if you can take away the Abysian mages' ability to strike from afar, they can probably be taken down with flyers like Storm Generals and Storm Guards, who can fly even during a storm.

Also, rituals like Wolven Winter can be used to soften up a "hot" province before your armies even arrive, increasing Abysia's fatigue during the battle. Heck, the mage might pass out before the flyers even get there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is just theory, though, as I haven't run into Abysia with Caelum yet.

[ March 03, 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">how? i haven't seen any good combat wind spells. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lightning Bolt. Orb Lightning. Thunder Strike. Wrathful Skies. Wind is FULL of good combat spells, definately in the top 2 or 3. It also has nice no-gem combat summons.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Imo Caelum has only one, but very powerful advantage over other nations. High Seraphs.
3 air 2 water 1? Flying, and most importantly, costs only a fekking *175* in cash, they are perhaps the most powerful single mage in game, when cost is taken into account.

At their mind-bendingly low cost, you should be making hordes of them. They are one of the most effective, if not THE most effective, researchers one can buy from the start, can search for sites really quickly (althought at limited paths), can cast quickness in battle to make them even more effective, work well with storm and storm power and do a lot of nice overland spells.

As for good battle spells for caelum, first one to cast is always obviously quickness, then summon storm power (if you are fighting in storm) and then proceed with thunder strikes or orb lighnings. The spells seem weak? Remeber, after first turn you will be casting 2/turn, and your mages are really cheap, so you have lots of them. Caelian mages have one weakness though: most of the stuff can be canceled with lighning resistance, so even mechanical men can be real nasty.

As for slaughtering abysians, or anyhting else for that matter, try this once: Take a single high seraph, give him staff of storms and ring that gives lighning immunity. Then go to battle, alone or preferably with some units that have lightning immunity guarding him, and cast wrathful skies. Proceed to watch the enemy army fry, and leave your enemy wondering at the battle report where hundreds of his units died and your units show one living commander.

Will not work twice against a human though, but is guaranteed to bring any ai down every time. There are another Versions with at least fire and poison.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Umh, I'm pretty new to the game, but I really like Caelum (but not the awful Raptor Theme), but I still state my stratgey for Caleum here, since I would appreciate comments whether my thoughts are right or wrong:

- Caelum fights well in the cold, so having a very high dominion strength (8-9) and using your pretender and prophet on the front lines to spread it seems reasonable to me.

- If your dominion strength is high anyway, then use your scales as well as the effect of the scales depend on the dominion strength as well: Order 2, Prod 2, Cold -3, Growth 2, Luck 1, Magic -1. Maybe Prod or Growth 3. No theme.

- I choose the 60-point Castle. Caelum troops are quick, so a strong fortification allows me to bring in helping troops from the outside in case of sieges, without lossing the accopanying temple/lab. (But I have to think about that wizard tower again...good point!)

- This leaves no design points for magic, and since I need a strong front-line pretender I decided to take the Blue Dragon with no additional magic. (I agree that cold resistance is a must have for the caelum pretender!)

True, this renders blessing useless, but my sneaky preachers serve other purposes anyway and I dont like those temple guards anyway. I'd rather build more mammoths and wingless if I want a non flying army.

In addition, the mages of caelum are indeed really nice, so they must take care for item creation and spells. My Dragon's Breath and his fly ability allow a fast start and I rely on my good scales to produce more troops to compensate the lack of a useful spell casting pretender in mid or end game, so I really put my pretender in the front line in the beginning. Once he is crippled with afflictions, he just "takes care of the reinforcements", ie. sits just behind my front line to spread his dominion.

I dont know whether those extra-heros appear always or whether it depends on my luck scale set to 1, but so far I always obtained that raptor-seraphine skilled in Death-Magic which complements my magic neatly.

- If there is no underwater nation in play, I usually try to send a water 3 mage or my pretender with a mammoth to an oceanic province as early as possible. Building aquatic troops goes slowly, but its neat to build temples at your enemies coastline...

- I prioritize research in construction in order to produce owl quills (you have +3 air gems from the start) to compensate my drain scale. If I have that Death-Magic heroine and she found a death gem site so far, I will even go for that cool research boosting skull. Otherwise I go for Alteration (Mistform/GhostWolves are good to conquer underwater) or Evocation.

- I disagree with the "heart of winter"-dominon. I think those 50 points are more worth on growth, production or even order, since you can spread with sneaky preachers anyway.

I'm usually not sure who I am going to turn into my prophet. A mage who accompanies my front line troops? A seraphine for stealth? I think that having a prophet-strom general in raiding party is a bad idea, as my raiding parties usually wont return home...

I dont like building non-caelum troops. As long as I manage to fight in the cold, I feel fine. Why hire other archers? Money is rarely a problem, and caelum archers require only 4 resources and are quite effective, so I dont want to build other archers. Protecting my archers is done with thos spire horn warriors. Depending on my scouts, I use them either to stand fast and protect my archers (via guard commander, who is set on hold or fire if he has a bow already), or, if the enemy has mages or plenty of archers himself on "hold and attack archers/rear" as said before in this thread. I always adjust my army setup before each battle.


So far I have only battled against normal AI's, but i intend to start a game with local friends soon. What do you think, how will they beat me up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

You can destroy a human player's army multiple times, just use Wind Trapeze... Your scouts will find his armies, and he can't protect his every army... There are better strategies, though, and you might not like it if your enemy gets few Staves of Storms for himself.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Gosh, this is sooo interesting! I only hope my human 'enemies' dont read this thread... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I have not really understood "storm" so far: How do I get into storms except from casting the battlefield spell storm?

I mean, sometimes there's snow (and I think i've seen rain) on the battlefield, but I always thought that this is a mere graphical nicety without effect. Did I miss something here? How do I make a weatherforecast then?

- As for RotR: I agree that Caelum should have a theme where blessing might be of more use. After all, they are angel-like beings anyway, so an entirely divine-based theme woulde be cool. And there's a lot to trade of: the cool mages, making mammoths unique to the captial, etc. But maybe I just dont know enough about the other nations.

I got the feeling that RotR was meant to give caelum a tainted, evil touch, but I think they are not evil enough...

- A question about the drain-scale: What is the big deal? I loose one research-point per mage, it increases MR by a half-point (what does a half-point mean by the way?). I'm not aware of the increased fatigue, but I recall that I've read somewhere something about that....

[ March 04, 2004, 08:21: Message edited by: Chazar ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

A strategy I learned in my first Caelum mp game: those scouts can conquer any province wihtout provincial defence. I must have taken almost ten provinces in two turns, losing two scouts and a seraphine when some provinces had few defenders... Then I took the rest, got his castle, his sites, slaughtered his sages and did other small things like that. It was fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
If you do this, your enemy will surely buy some PD. Then you make some raiding parties and kill his PD, which would have slaughtered a scout but can't stand versus 20 Spire Horners! After that, he doesn' know what to do! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
And you want to have many fortresses, as between scouts, High Seraphs and Seraphines you just have too many places to produce commanders. Thanks for the Mausoleum hint, Gandalf! Imight actually use them again if that works...

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If one of your (or his/hers/its) commanders carries a staff of storms, there will be a storm.
Storm has 5 effects:
1. it halves all precision scores (air magic bonus is given afterwards, as is the bonuses given by eagle eyes and wind guide)
2. of all fired (ordinary) missiles, 50% are discarded on flight.
3. fire magic is harded to cast
4. normal flight is not possible.
5. Casting of storm power is allowed (very easy air spell that gives +1 in air magic for duration of battle)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And how exactly would enemy having staff of storms hurt? I really can't figure out why.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Harder to cast = Double Fatigue

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It could hurt if you had very little forces that could fight in a storm and primarily archers (Caelum archers are just as bad in storms as the rest).

Wrathful Skies + Storm is always bad unless you have Thunder Ward.

Certain summoned monsters and items give increased power during a storm.

If you don't plan on being a storm and any one of those things is counter to what your army is composed of, it can be bad for you if they have a storm.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the advice on storms! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
  Is it generally speaking a necessity to go for construction with Caelum early on? So far I always did, but not that extensive, alteration/evocation are useful. But then again, these owl-quills might make it up again then, as I dont have too many mages around in battle in the beginning anyway...
  http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
  Quote:

  Originally posted by Norfleet: If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item.

  <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahem, I agreed with you there before, but then considering again, a high seraph can forge a "Ring of Frost" already on the second turn (provided that you dont use the Raptor theme). So the only drawback here is the lost misc-item slot, or did I miss something else? (I'm thinking about trading the blue dragon against a virtue pretender, among other changes...)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
  Quote:

  Posted by fahdiz: I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.

  <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, yes, but death/earth magic and no seraphines looks not that nice to me. I would just like to have a fallen-angel theme for caelum, but I'm not sure if it adds well to the other nations.
  
  The raptor theme is just not appealing to me, but maybe shifting it more into rebellious-religious fanatics by adding more sacred troops would be real tempting choice as well, as we said here before...</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ March 04, 2004, 22:57: Message edited by: Chazar ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, yes, but death/earth magic and no seraphines looks not that nice to me. I would just like to have a fallen-angel theme for caelum, but I'm not sure if it adds well to the other nations.

The raptor theme is just not appealing to me, but maybe shifting it more into rebellious-religious fanatics by adding more sacred troops would be real tempting choice as well, as we said here before...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I didn't say they were nice, just not necessarily evil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif "Desperately fanatic" and "embittered by being squeezed out of Caelian society for centuries" is definitely more how I saw it from reading the flavor text.

I'm becoming more and more fond of the sacred Raven Guard/sacred Wingless idea for Return of the Raptors. But I would be interested to see the opinions of the experts of the list - do you think such a change would present balance problems, or do you think there is a place for a "new RotR"? And do these changes even sound good or appropriate to you?

[ March 04, 2004, 23:11: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

If I had to do what I say (Which is of course the hardest way to do it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'd more than likely make RotR a complete overhaul.

Change the Preference to Cold 1 or None (Depending on the points).

Remove Wingless, Remove Mammoths, Remove Spire Horn Warriors (Replaced with Raptors), Make Raven Guard Sacred. New unit Gryphon. Move one Air to Random on the Harab Elder and give him Holy 3. Starting Spell = Blight.

That would play much differently. With the removal of Cold preference but keeping the units Cold Resistance, you could take Cold if you wish; but you lose the 'free points' and makes you play quite a bit differently.

Those are just some things I was thinking for my own modifications; but hardly a general consensus.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahem, I agreed with you there before, but then considering again, a high seraph can forge a "Ring of Frost" already on the second turn (provided that you dont use the Raptor theme). So the only drawback here is the lost misc-item slot, or did I miss something else?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it *IS* the loss of your ONLY misc slot. There are other alternatives, though. And my intent wasn't to say that you SHOULDN'T use the Nataraja because of this, so much that you should be aware of the effect: It's particularly pronounced on the Nataraja, since he already comes with a rather poor base fatigue rating of 3. +2 for severe cold will turn it into an absolutely awful 5, so nose-down-in-the-dirt is very likely occurrence unless this is taken into account. The Virtue will be similarly affected, but her lighter base encumberance of 1 will mean that even a severe-cold penalized virtue will still have the endurance of an unaffected Nataraja, and she has two misc slots. The Blue Dragon isn't affected, but his encumberance is pretty bad anyway.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Would you give them Gryphon Riders like the Garnet Amazons have, or would it be just a riderless Gryphon with slightly different stats (like cold resistance, for one)?

Effectively this would turn RotR into a "groundless" nation, as Wingless + Mammoth is basically all Caelum has as far as ground troops, and RotR doesn't even get Temple Guards. Is it your intent that RotR *must* rely on independents and summons for ground forces? This would make early expansion, especially against strong indies, very difficult.

Certainly mages with Death (Harabs) give you quick and easy battlefield ground troops - but they don't pack the punch of Mammoths in any way, shape or form. Would the Gryphon replace the functionality of the Mammoth, in your mind?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

A base Gryphon. Not a rider. He is supposed to replace the Mammoth, similiar cost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">125 Gold, XX Resources

Size 4
Hp 48 Str 21
Pro 10 Att 13
Mor 10 Def 13
MR 10 Pre 5
Enc 4 Mv 2/16

Cold Resistance 100
Animal
Flying

Claw, Bite</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would have to be balanced of course. But something that takes the place of a semi-decent unit. Could even lower the Morale more if it needed in order to simulate the low morale of the Mammoth, but flying units generally have a much greater chance to rout regardless. Have him eat horses would be fine too, +5 Supply Usage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 05, 2004, 01:21: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

I see...so in this scenario, reanimated Skeletons/Soulless/etc. (either battlefield summons or ritual reanimations) + Gryphons = RotR's Version of Wingless + Mammoth, yes?

That would certainly force a different style of play. Having to rely on flying troops for more than just raiding, harrassment, and commander-killing would make things difficult...although the fact that you could play a bless strategy towards Raven Guards might help make up for some of the difference.

[ March 05, 2004, 01:30: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

More or less. Just depends. Since the cost of the Harab Elder is so high, you couldn't be building much in the way of both Gryphons and Harab Elders.

You would have to rely on Storm Guards/Raven Guards + Gryphons in order to compete. The slower movement of the Gryphon wouldn't allow it quite the movement of most of Caelum troops (Letting them jump *everywhere*).

It would also force the smart use of Storm. You don't have nearly the battle power as base Caelum, since you don't have Quickness with your Orb Lighting, but lets you have a chance to get a 3rd Death (for say Terror) or a second Earth to be able to forge Earth Boots then Dwarven Hammer (something that Base Caelum has no chance for).

It is hard to fill the gap of the mammoths, as they are an incredible unit and very cost effective for use against indies and high amounts of elite units from opponents.

I'd have to be tested, but it certainly would make you think differently from base Caelum, but have the options where it is not considered 'totally useless'.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Well, if you got a third Death on one of your Harab Elders you could also just scrounge up some Behemoths...and that's a heck of a Mammoth replacement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is easily done with a Skull Staff.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't noticed that flying units have a tendency to rout that's greatly above that of ground units, although they are much more SUCCESSFUL at routing, as they simply disappear off the field: Perhaps the routing tendency is contributed due to the fact that many fliers are rather fragile and easily damaged, and you don't mass them quite as much because they're larger and more expensive units. Of course, it's also possible to deploy fliers in much larger squads without running into blockage problems, which helps to offset this. I haven't noticed any particularly extreme tendency of fliers to rout. It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree (of course). Jotuns have better-than-average morale and tend to have decent staying power, as long as they're not massively swarmed, which would be a problem for any nation anyway.