Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I'd just like to make sure that everyone knows how much I enjoy the Kingdom of Karan map by Targa.

I appreciate his endevor and the more and more I play it (both single and multi-player) the more I enjoy it.

One of the unsung heroes of Dom2.

Thanks Targa.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I agree. This and Orania are the only two maps I play. I'd download another map by Targa sight-unseen.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

yeah, it's now my standard map for testing out strategies. It's very nice, and the liberal use of chokepoints helps compensate for Dominion II's somewhat excessive fluidity of armies and borders.

it looks nice too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I'd like to add my appreciation. I play Targa's Map, Kingdom of Karan, almost exclusively. Best map EVER.

Targa, you ROCK!

Thanks for the helpful reply on my mod thread too.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Ditto what Zen said!

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

same things. Awesome map!

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Im sorry but I cant join in here praising this map. Not like it takes much to make my DomMaps look like junk but HEY he didnt have to raise the bar so high! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

(Im just kidding. Yes its a great map. A new standard to shoot for)

[ March 02, 2004, 20:09: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

It looks awesome, but is TOO SMALL.

Torvak currently holds my approval as "most awesome map maker".

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Same here. I hate him (her?) for that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I also want to do these nifty 3D effects.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

the map is awesome, both from the visuals and from the depth. Once you start to play it for more than 2 or 3 times you will notice there is actually STRATEGY in the map foundation itself, like the seas and stuff, and how the provines are made up. REALLY the best map out there.

I wouldnt another nice map, but i guess it must be hours if not days to make a map like this with all the photoshopping and scripting

anyway, REALLY awesome Targa, imho the best map !

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

YIP!
Great Map,
Targa, is there any new maps in the works?

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Definitely an outstanding map - thanks Targa!

The thing I like most about it (besides the appearance) is the size. It's nice to have a m/p map that doesn't require 13 players like Orania, since once you get up above 10 players or so games tend to slow down quite a bit.

I'm definitely looking forward very much to anything Targa releases in the future.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Im glad you made this post Zen because I have been wanting to ask "Where has Targa been?" I want to send him money to make more maps for us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I have not seen him on the Boards lately.

I agree I am enjoying Karan a whole lot to! Thanks Targa! That map is just perfect in size, why do you guys want them any larger?

BB

[ March 02, 2004, 21:46: Message edited by: Buzzbomb ]

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because it's fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I haven't been playing on anything else but the world map since it came out.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Well, I'll add my voice to the choir...

Yay Targa! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I play on a lot of the maps, but only two with any regularity: Orania, and Targa's fantastic Karan map. I usually use Karan to test out new stuff, to try differences in indie strength, and so on. I love it and can't wait for your next map! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 02, 2004, 23:19: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Gotta agree - great job Targa!

I especially like the fact that mountains are barriers - there are a great amount of chokepoints and such which give provinces a strategic value, plus which it's very nice to look at - all your effort is worth it in my opinion, and please continue to make maps for Dom II.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Same here. Map looks great, has variety and chokepoints and gives a different experience based on where you start.
Have I said it looks great yet?

If this was the (visual) quality of the maps the game was shipped with, the reviews and perhaps sales might have been even better.

I like the size as well. Since I play SP only, by the time I've got a third of the map conquered and several Level 9 research levels reached, mopping up is fast and furious.

And on the other hand the mapsize is sufficient to allow the AI players to do their thing (for some reason this often includes casting bl**dy Burden of Time) while I build up my position during the opening phase.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Same here. I hate him (her?) for that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I also want to do these nifty 3D effects. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Torvak, just DL'ed your map. Rest assured it is far above what we ask, from a artistic standpoint. Your is very enjoyable and beautiful too. Its the difference between 'very good' and 'excellent' (no offence ment!).

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Well, I guess it behooves me to reply in some fashion, since Zen has "let the cat out of the bag", so-to-speak. First, I'd like to thank all of you for the positive feedback. It's nice to know that all that effort is appreciated. To be quite honest, I was somewhat disillusioned and disappointed at the lack of response when I released the Kingdom of Karan map. IIRC, there were only perhaps five people who commented at the time of its release. I think it's unfortunate (from a modder's perspective) that Illwinter doesn't have some kind of "download counter" for each item hosted on their site, as this would give modders a rough idea as to how popular their work is.

My own personality (call it a flaw if you wish) requires some form of encouragement, interest, and positive feedback to keep me interested in something. I have a feeling, however, that the vast majority of people who create "fan works" do so with one hope in mind: That it be used and appreciated by the players. I can't imagine that many people would continue to put untold hours into fan-works if they weren't being used by anyone.

If properly motivated, I can bury myself in my work, as you can see here:
http://www.thiefmissions.com/targa/

That was when I was playing Thief 2, and became an active member of the Thief community. Players create "fan missions", in which they like to employ new objects and graphics that weren't released as part of the original game, so I was able to find my niche as an "object creator". To this day, I still receive e-mails about that work, and the site is now mirrored in several places, including a translation and host in German and Russian. I'm not egotistical about it, but I am happy that the countless hours of unpaid work that I put into it has made it a valuable resource to the gaming community.

Unfortunately for me, I prefer my games to be a bit less cerebral than Dom2 turned out to be, and I stopped playing it at about the same time that I released the Kingdom of Karan. This, coupled with the less-than-enthusiastic response to Karan's release, drove me away from the computer and back into the arms of fantasy novels.

To answer a few specifics:

@Norfleet: The latest map is Orania-sized, roughly twice the size of Karan.

@Torvak:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Him" would be the proper term here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

@Ragnarok-X:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">More like hundreds of hours.

It's interesting to note, now that I think about it, that during all those hours I spent making objects for the Thief community, I very rarely actually played the game. I guess I'm more fond of actually working with graphics than I am of playing games. Anyways...that's enough rambling on my part. Thanks again for your kind words. On to the big question, which is all you really care about anyway, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Will I make more maps? Probably, now that I know there's life out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Don't hold your breath though. With Spring fast approaching I'm probably going to be busy with other things around the house, so my computer time will be of necessity limited.

While we're on the subject, though, you could give me your thoughts about the next map. I started one that's the same size as Orania. Compared to Karan, should I go smaller or larger, or make another one of the same size? The Orania-sized one will take a long time, since everything is done by hand...

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Targa,

At least as large as Orania, and preferably as large as World (# of provinces).

As for popularity counts, while my web site doesn't yet track individual downloads, I can tell you that I get an average of ~100 distinct visitors per day, about 2/3rds new ones. Of the ~100, 2/3rds go to my d/l page and grab multiple items. On the day I put maps up my traffic doubled. Based on these numbers, I estimate that for each active poster on the forum there are 40-100 lurkers. I'm sure you can do the math from there. Just because only five people took the time to say nice things doesn't mean there aren't hundreds of people that appreciate your effort.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I feel the urge to voice my agreement. Not only is it great to look at, but I feel it's well balanced and highly interesting for its gameplay value, as well, and that counts even more.

You and Tiltowait both are probably the best thing in mapmaking the Dominionscommunity could hope for... would the two of you do a map together? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Lots of smaller maps already available. Not so with large maps. My vote is for a map larger than Orania.

Thanks, Targa,
Aikamun

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I'd go for the same size. Within a week of your first release, I saw two different MP games start up with it, on two diffrent message Boards.

It is not to large, not to small.
It is just right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Just wanted to add my voice.
I love your work Targa. keep those great maps coming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Despite not having played on the map till now I surely appreciate the effort you put into it, too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

CharonJr

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I hadn't checked the map page in a while, so didn't know your map existed until I read this thread!

Thank goodness I did, Kingdom of Karan is great. I love the connected waterways and the way terrain that looks like it hould cut off movement always does. I haven't actually played a game on it yet, but three pages of people can't be wrong about how it plays. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

If you make another map, put me in the "Orania or larger" camp. I love epic maps, and Kingdom of Karga and a larger one in the same style are all the maps I'd really ever need... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I know I keep harping on this but "large" is such a variance. (personally I put my vote in for huge)

Karan is 162 land and 20 water.
with 17 players thats 10 independent provinces each. The game allows a "starting number of provinces" setting maxxed at 9 each

Orania is 259 land and 20 water
17 per land player, 10 per water

The maximum number of provinces is 500.
If 450 land and 50 water thats alittle more than 25 for each player before forcing war. So is 200-250 going to be considered a "large" map?

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Well I would say Karan is a medium sized map right? So yes Gandalf 200-250 total provinces sounds like it constitutes large map. And will you guys wanting the super huge maps please tell me why?It just seems that sized would get bogged down. I like medium maps like Karan because I can finish them in a reasonable amount of time and id say more than 30 or 40 provinces is more than I want to manage. I cant imagine these epic maps. How many troop producing fortresses do you like to command on a large to huge map? And dont some of the AI guys just get to huge?

Or do you want the mega maps just for multiplayer? I cant imagine playing with 17 AIs.


BB

[ March 04, 2004, 16:54: Message edited by: Buzzbomb ]

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

The reason some of us like large/huge maps is that it gives the AIs a fighting chance to grow and become tougher opponents before a human encounters them in SP games. To us, finishing the game quicker is not as important as the quality of the challenge we face while playing. Smaller maps tend to be used for MP, and for learning by beginners.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Am I the only one who wants a Targanification of the Sundering and Cirlani maps? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Not everyone have the time or patience for 1200+ turns huge maps you know.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like maps of all sizes. Small maps can be really nice for learning about fast expansion and (as was already said) for MP "duels" and quick blitz games, against AIs or against other humans.

Basically, my feeling is "the more maps the better, regardless of size".

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Some peoples ideas of tactics and strategy all involve things they have thought up before the game even begins. My playing style relies on making better use of whats thrown at me than the other guy. Hence my love of random. Random maps, random placements, random events, luck, etc.

I like to choose my time and place for battles. I dont do well on maps where all of our provinces will be bordering all of someone elses before mid-game. I totally understand people wanting other size maps. But when everyone was saying large maps I just wanted to know if I should get excited. By large, do they mean what I mean when I say large.

Apparently not. I guess my vote would then be...
Hmmm there was another thread this would be better in. Dont want to steal Targa's light.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

when i started with dom2 i was mainly playing small maps, but once i really got the hang i wanted bigger maps.

I think the Kingdom of Karan has almost an almost perfect size.
I usually let participate each nation except Ryleh, Atlantis and Miclan as well as Ermor.
Thats because i dont like Water nations because they can backstab you and miclan because they ALWAYS get beaten, no matter what happens. It seems just like the KI is not capeable of playing them. Same goes for Ermor, except that the AI is too good at playing and other AIs cannot handle them. Caelum seems to be quite weak, too, at least AI played.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Personally I like Huge maps also.

Targa, since you wont have that much time, you could consider taking Kingdom of Karan and make it a wrap-around-world by adding border provinces to make the wrap look smooth.

Great Work.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Looking at it, he won't need to. It appears to have been designed with wrap-around in mind; all the boundaries match up. He would just need to add borders to the provinces on the current edges.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not so much a fan of randomness, but rather, unpredictability. We have saying about randomness on our site, but it's kind of an inside joke and nobody here would get it.

Unpredictability, on the other hand, is fun. While it's all fine and good to think of strategy and tactics before the game starts, the element of unpredictability provided by human opponents will insure that no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

My vote: same size or slightly smaller, with wraparound.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Since I haven't had the time to play a game on your map till now I can't tell for sure, but as has been said due to the smaller number of large maps around, I tend to support the "same or larger" faction.

CharonJr

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

In response to your question about the size of your next map Targa, I think it should be around the same size. 160-170 land provinces and 20-25 water provinces is plenty. With about 6 or 7 AI or opponents it plays great. These super big maps just get bogged down in my opinion. And I wasnt kidding about paying you for more maps in my earlier post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif I can tell you put a lot of work into them.

BB

[ March 04, 2004, 16:45: Message edited by: Buzzbomb ]

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I would also vote for a larger map, either Orania-sized or larger. Once I get more involved in the game (I am still new to Dominions), I imagine I will like the very large maps like many of the others here.

About your previous work, I have downloaded the ones from Illwinter's map page and intend to play the Karan map a few times as my next target. Thanks for all of the hard work you have done.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Just wanted to add my thanks to Targa, the Kingdoms map is wonderful fun. The graphics are pretty. I showed the map to my wife who hates all things computer and she was impressed as well!

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I'd like to make a request not for a huge map, but smaller maps. perfect game, to my mind, is with 4 or 5 opponents (enough for a crowd) and a little bit of space. This way you have a chance of actually finishing the game rather than getting bogged down in huge micromanagement issues.

I think everyone likes the sound of a huge game with hundreds of provinces and tons of nations, but in fact after a limited number of turns it just becomes tedious and most people start something else - the 'epic' element quickly becomes 'mind-numbingly-tedious'.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Lovely map, Targa. Stay with us and create more! So you're a GM kind of guy, that's cool, we need more like you!

I prefer large - huge maps. 200+ provinces , for the same reasons, Gandalf Parger mentions.

Some of his random maps don't look too shabby btw. With a bit of work they could be modified to look more then decent, I think. Too bad, I'm rather lazy in that regard....

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

snip, double post, sorry ... any way to delete a post btw?

[ March 05, 2004, 16:35: Message edited by: Tricon ]

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Hello,

I would also like to say "thank you" very much.

I just downloaded your map after reading this thread. I hadnt done so before because to be quite honest, I just loved Orania so much I didnt want to try out fan-based stuff after I had taken a look at a very small one (Talis I think it was). Yours looks very very promising and I cant wait to try it out asap.

I also just wanted to say that I bow my head to your Thief site, which I checked out from the link in your reply. I love Thief2, it is definately one of my top 3 favorite games of all time (if that makes sense as a concept; I also liked Planescape Torment, Fallout and Deus Ex as megaFavorites). I think I will try out Thief II again (it hasnt been out of its box in ages) after seeing your site.

Well all the best to you and hats off.

Oh wait PS the "vote": If possible, I would also appreciate a fine "smaller" map, perhaps in the "style" of "Cirlani".... but whatever.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Thinktank: Thief 3 is supposedly in stores this Spring! *drool* check out the official website:
http://www.thief3.com/main.html

It's one of my all-time faves also. I hope Thief 3 lives up to expectations.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OH
MY
GOD

Ohmygod, I just got very very excited, almost as much as when I first heard my wife was pregnant. I know that is perverse, but I just checked out that website real quick-like, and saw that...
**Warren Spector**
is doing this one. Ohmygod.
(Side note: Did NOT get Deus Ex II because I didnt want to be really dissapointed after reading reviews and seeing demo.
God please dont let us be dissapointed)
Tracks suspiciousness, oh yum.
Right well sorry. Looks like I will need another hour or three before I check out your great map, sir, I am off to the Thief III website.

Ah thank you so much.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And still no multiplayer... *sob*

I can't think of any game better suited for real co-op (can't stand those anti-terrorist-scenarios).

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

I just played my first game on Karan and feel the immediate need to shamelessly bump this post up to the front. I now see what the buzz was about. Wow. Thank you. In no way wanting to knock the maps that came with the game (Orania is amazing!!), your map is simply wonderful. And in addition to all the true things that have been said about it up till now, I would like to add: It is simply pretty. It is obviously done with love, caring, and thought. It is lovely. Thank you.

Should I be granted one request, it would NOT be a request for a specific size map; do what you want, large, small, inbetween, whatever; however, could you make it wrap-around?? If Karan were to be wrap-around, it would certainly kick even larger quantities of gluteous muscles than it does now.

Re: Kingdom of Karan and Targa
 

Um... I guess so. But I meant: planned as a wraparound map. I cant imagine a map made as Aran or Karan would work particularly well as a wrap-around. That would be like putting two slices of bread around a lot of spaggetti bolognese: sure, it's a sandwich, but is it an optimal solution?