buggy blade wind?
 

After having watched several casting of blade winds, against a big army, and having seen that the trajectory seems rather strange (total miss several time!), I wonder if there is not something buggy here. Are the blades supposed to be spread everywhere, except toward the intended target (or group of targets?).

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

I think with the new patch that Blade Wind has been more targeted to nearer the back of the units. It hits rearmost alot more often than it used to, but anything in the front 1/3 of the formation is pretty safe.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

I have noticed what Zen describes also. This even seems to be the case post the 2.06 patch with archer fire.

For the most part, I like spells and archers aiming for the rear portion of a given group since that's less likely to cause friendly fire casualties.

I've not seen total miss of all blades against a big army unless we're talking a lot of shielded units. What patch Version are you using? I'm still using 2.06.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

2.08

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

Wow. I didn't notice this. It was very powerful pre-2.08, too.

I haven't experimented with 2.08 due to Utgard and the increased battle replay inconsistency in SP. This looks like perhaps a third reason not to.

I wonder if the devs would comment on this. I don't have any real answers for you. The only thing I can think of is that blade wind is distractable with small numbers of troops in a unit just as archer fire is. Does it look as if it's being aimed at a small unit off the screen that you can see?

Even in 2.06 it would occasionally target a close group of high protection shielded troops and when far juicier non-commander targets weren't that far away. Might that be what is happening?

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

The Blade Wind has not been changed. Every shot lowers presicion with one or something like that (always has). This means that the Last 50th blade will deviate a lot if the target is at some distance. IIRC the targeting engine is not altered between 2.06 and 2.08.

A possible reason is that the spell AI do not cast protective buffs as often and instead begin the battle with Blade Wind. At long distance the deviance is higher and thus you experience a drop in hits.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious about the deviation formula.

I think it is generally agreed that combat accuracy is lower than intuitively optimal.

I know many players who concentrate exclusively on Precision 100 spells, because the current ballistic algorithm makes it nearly impossible to hit anything at long range.

Can you please describe the deviance formula in more detail?

Am I correct in assuming that deviation is heavily weighted to be *away* from the optimal target point rather than symmetrically randomized?

If so, the way to "fix" the maddening inaccuracy with combat spells (hits everywhere, except the target...) may be to have not only a trajectory spread, but allowing the deviance to potentially self correct.

That may help solve the current "never hit anything, basically ever" vs. "really ridiculously tight grouping with precision buffs, which are therefore extremely rare" dichotomy.

What do you folks think?


Rabe the Tactically Divergent

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

I don't understand what you mean.

(What does intuitively optimal mean?)

Deviance is symmetrical with an increasing deviance area depending on distance.

I'm actually rather uncertain on the mechanics.

[ March 06, 2004, 17:23: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess it means something like

OMG WTF i could have won but those frigging SOB's never hit with that damn spell!!!11!!

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

Yeah, the best word I can use to describe battlefield spells like Bladewind:

"Teh Suq"

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

I too think that many of the lesser spells lack something like 2 points in precision. Its so weird do see all these fireballs, bladewinds, and flares hit every empty square possible, *around* the intended target, as if there was a deflector raised before the intended unit.

I know that they are not supposed to be that powerful, but as of now its a waste of mage to script most of these spells. With the lowering of gold income in dom2, a mage is even more valuable than before. As the battlefield in dom2 has been enlarged, I think it would be ok to raise a bit the precision, to compensate the loss in power of the spells.

A mod can change that, but most of the players play with standard dominions rules.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

I am still not sure what the precision on my mages means, either.

For example, if my mage has a precision of 30, and casts fireball, which I think is precision 4, is this a prec 34 fireball? I dont think so, but I dont understand why not. Well, I do, sorta, for game balance, but, I mean, is prec for bows only? Dunno.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

I think I've mentioned the following idea before and it was well-received. I tend to think the scatter should be greatly reduced, but then the chance to avoid getting hurt when it lands in the right place should probably be increased to compensate somewhat and not make ranged attacks too sure of success. The result would be:

1) It would look a lot less silly.
2) Friendly fire would be less common.*
3) If tweaked properly, even inaccurate ranged attacks would have a fair chance of having an effect, especially against dense Groups.
4) If tweaked properly, even accurate spells, and fire into a dense group, wouldn't have too certain a chance of hitting someone without a shield.

(* Friendly fire would still be bad, though - again, my only real complaint with the game is units killing their friends by firing at targets near their friends.)

PvK

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

As a newcomer who never played Dom1, I have to say that a lot of these spread spells seem worse than useless -- they waste an action and fatigue for the mage, and rarely if ever hit anything (and if they do, rarely if ever damage/kill it). If I could say "never cast these spells" to the AI, I would.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

I don't mind the apparent lack of precision with some spells. Because that makes spells like aim and items like eye of aiming particularly useful. Try casting that blade wind spell again after giving the caster an eye of aiming and look at the results.

Magic is quite powerful, especially area effect spells. There may be rebalance issues throughout entire national themes if precision is increased.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

Its hard to tell sometimes, but in my experience, more of the blades are actually hitting than the animation makes it appear. I learned this when I grumbled something like "damn blades never hit" after a watching a battle, only to check the hall of fame afterwards, and discover that the mage I thought hadn't hit anything at all actually racked up quite a few kills...

When it comes to battle replays, don't believe everything you see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you think that Abysia or Ulm are meant to be played with Eye-enhanced mages ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
I think, like others, that those low prec spells are between useless and dangerous (due to friendly fire risks), and that has an unwanted effect : good players concentrate on either prec-100 spells or large area/battlefield spells.
This really limits the variety of usable magic strategies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

PDF: in that image of yours blade wind was cast in storm. No wonder it didn't hit anything. With no boosts that is like prec-5 total... In dom2, never bring storm if you are going to cast ANY precision-dependent spells. Or bring wind guide too, they pretty much negate each other as much as magic is concerned.

Range also seems to have a huge effect on hitting. Blade wind is useful, but it must be casted *from the front* not from the behind of your troops. This of cource brings up survivalibity problems, but you can't have all you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

PDF,

Yes...I do think Ulm and Abyssia are meant to be played with eye-enhanced mages. That's how I always play them. Try that if you haven't and vive la difference!

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

Here's an example : the battlefield is relatively full of troops (200 on each side), and the blades get *out* of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif !
In this battle there was maybe 5 casts of BW, everytime it gets spread everywhere with nearly no hits.
IMHO the spell is broken : in Dom1 it was very powerful, now it's as useless as Flying Shards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ...

http://pascal.difolco.free.fr/BW_Example.jpg

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Its rather weird to think that to have a fireball-caster mage perform correctly his job, one must pay him an air item. IMO spells like firebal, magmabolt, etc. should be somehow of use, even with unenhanced mage. A 200 gp salamander with prec 7 is an absolute waste on a battlefield, so in essence his fire-2 profeciency is only of use for rituals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

Fear my awesome 380 gp Anathemant Dragon, that cant hit an elephant juste before them!

Ah, I now understand their use : they make the enemy die by laughing frantically. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is especially true when you consider the number of ways to make fire magic even less useful. Storms, mist, and cold provinces for example.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And what about a Medusa killing herself with her own Blade Wind? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I don't think they were *meant* to be weak and unbalanced *unless* you succeed in finding indy/mercs Air mages .. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
I agree that they *perform better* this way, but that's very different.
What happens is that Fire and Earth magic are underpowered to their frequent (crappy) precision-based combat damage spells, and that it is counterbalanced if/when you get Air items.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree wtih this 100%. Increased chance of hitting a square, combined with an decreased chance of hitting someBODY in that square, would make for a lot of improvements.

Increasing spell percision can handle the first, but what would make a good mechanism for the second? Right now, shields give a form of defense roll but most armor doesn't help. Possibly all units should have a chance to defend against missiles, with that chance increased by possession of a shield? Are units assumed to be able to dodge incoming shots as is, or would that make a good addition, possibly with encumberence levels cutting it down. (I don't think size should be a factor as size is already factored in the way larger units have a larger chance of being "chosen" as the target for an incoming missile since they occupy more of a square.)

Any kind of addition should be able to be auto-calculated by the system, since editing all those units to add unique Dodge stats or some such would be undoable.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well no. They make the enemy die by casting incinerate. Or they make the enemy die by summoning fire elementals. Or they make the enemy die by casting fireball - when the enemy army is large enough that the fireball is unlikely to miss. I think there's a balance issue here - if Anathements were too precise, the combination of that precision with Abysia's fire immunity would make them too powerful. Imagine a Caelum whose troops were all lightning-immune...

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

After a Anathemant Dragon with heroic precision appeared in my army I now agree fully with Truper. Abyssians would simply flatten everything in sight if their mages had high enough precision to back up the more powerful firespells.

That doesn't mean you should be forced to rely on the 100 precision spells. Just that you'll have to be both skilled and lucky to work around it. In the game with the Dragon I found a site that produced airmagic casters in the first province I attacked. I set them to massproduce eyes of aiming and to cast Aimx5 in battle. I quit the game after a while because it became too boring.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

You don't have to be lucky enough to find enemy air mages...you can take air power on your pretender and have your pretender site search for air gems and craft eyes. Eyes only require 1 air.

For these nations, eyes of aiming are definitely worth the gems.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

perhaps some of us should take the burden of putting up a mod which alters by some points nearly all non-area evocation spells?

I'm unsure I can take the gauntlet though...

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since I didn't see anyone answer this...

Precision matters for all ranged attacks - spells, bows, crossbows, throwing weapons, spit attacks, etc etc etc. Spells (or weapons, for that matter) that have a precision listed increase the caster's (weapon user's) precision by the listed value. If they value is negative, they decrease it by that much instead.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This confirms my opinion : Air magic is required for nations that don't use it, just because their magic are underpowered...
There's still a balance issue : in Dom1 Air magic was too powerful on its own, now it's somewhat less so, but the precision "issue" ruins Fire and Earth, so Air get back again through the window http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wouldn't it be easier to improve precision of Fire mages (Abysians & Marignon) ?
As long as noone has a detailed documentation of how Precision really works, it has to be a test&guess method, not very satisfactory http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wouldn't it be easier to improve precision of Fire mages (Abysians & Marignon) ?
As long as noone has a detailed documentation of how Precision really works, it has to be a test&guess method, not very satisfactory http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As we notice a significant increase in precision when you goes from 0 to 4 (for example) then I think that a general +2 for combat spells would be ok.

As for the question : tweaking spells or tweaking mages, I think its better to tweak spells : Because you would need to tweak every mages of all nations, including independants or found by site. Also it ask to tweak mages from new mods. Where as a spell tweak pack as a stand alone would be much easier to maintain, and activate/deactivate.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

PDF if you are interested, we can make that a joint project. You make the mod file, and I make an executable that allows the modification of the precision boost. For example you would set the boost to +1 with the executable, and it would change to this value all #precision (or whatever) tag in the your file.

There is perhaps 50 spells to mod, the burden of the work is to identify all spells which use precision < 100

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

thats simple, just check all battle spells if they have a precision. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
It was a suggestion, if you feel its too much of an hassle, then no worries.

Re: buggy blade wind?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The JV is a good idea, but I could manage this more easily with just an Excel spreadsheet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
Who's starting and making the spell list ? I'm sure you're more qualified for that than I am, you've played Abysia in 256,881 MP games already, I've just played Ulm once ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif