Combat results log
 

Since IW seems to think that we, the fans of the game, don't need the ability to have text logs of combat results, I thought I'd put up a poll to (hopefully) demonstrate to them how much interest there is in having this feature added to the game.

Re: Combat results log
 

I think this is an excellent development, pretty soon JK and Kristoffer won't have to make any decisions anymore, you can just put up a poll and vote for the inclusion or exclusion of any features. I certainly believe that design by polling is the way of the future in game design. I also am very certain that Kristoffer and JK will take great pleasure in not having to make any decisions on their own anymore. Illwinter is scheduled to change it's name to Gallup Game design any minute now. Of course there will first be a poll to approve the name change.

[ March 07, 2004, 11:57: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Combat results log
 

Never mind.

[ March 07, 2004, 13:18: Message edited by: Aikamun ]

Re: Combat results log
 

Useless poll IMHO - no offense meant Arryn, but I can't see your point :
Question 1 is a poll on a feature : combat log. Ok we can discuss about it, but a poll won't mean much...
Question 2 is pointless : of course Users are those who know what Users want, that's a syllogism http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif , but the designers are those who decide what they will eventually put in *their* game !

Re: Combat results log
 

The second poll question was editted, rendering it invalid. The meaning has been altered and toned down.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T,
Aikamun

Re: Combat results log
 

While this attitude would seem an obvious one to someone who has played games, its a big surprise if you administer a game to find out that the players are definetly NOT the right people to ask what a game needs. If anyone really wants a firm base in what admining a game means then look into MUDs. Psychology papers have been written on player styles, why MUDs go up by the hundreds and few survive a couple of years, Whats been done right or wrong. Some MUDs go back over 30 years (yes thats longer than PCs and almost longer than Internet)

What players WANT in a game is often quite different from what they NEED in a game to keep playing it.

Thats not saying that all players are clueless, short-sighted, narrow-focused. Nor that all developers have the answers. Its just that the "obvious" thing that players know whats best for a game really isnt true.

Re: Combat results log
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The old "Give the customer what he needs, not what he wants", eh?

Regarding turn-logs, there is a very simple justification for the need: AAR writing. Currently, the player who wants to write an AAR has to manually take note of everything of interest that happens in a given round when it happens, or he will forever be prevented from accessing that information. (Alternatively, he must make a manual copy of the turn file after each turn, for perusal later). Sometimes, the importance of certain turn outcomes only becomes obvious several turns after the event, but if you did not make a note of it earlier, all possibilities of time-wise correlation is lost.

Is helping those who write AARs and those who like examining trends important enough to justify the programming time that will go into dumping the logs (or even, god willing, sorting the log entries under different tabs) when compared to other enhancements or new development projects, now that is the responsibility of the developers and nobody else to decide, but the need for it is clear - there just might be greater needs.

Re: Combat results log
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my experience, games that have turn logs that are used for AAR writing only end up in a number of AARs that are boring to read. Mostly because people use them as a crutch to actually writing something. Do I want to be innundated by dull AARs? No thanks.

Re: Combat results log
 

I'm delighted you approve. It's comforting to know that IW intends to listen to the fan base, and include features the fans ask for.

Re: Combat results log
 

Yes I can understand how this poll can be felt as offensive by IW, Arrynn. Particularly the second question.

Developpers are players, dont forget that (well its true for IW at least!). And the commitment they have done for dominions dwarf, by definition, any commitment that even the most zealout fan can do.

Re: Combat results log
 

The second question in this poll is a perfect example of what a poll should NOT ask: you ask "who is best suited to deciding what we want", while the question you're really asking is, "who should decide what is best for the game".

Obviously, this is a point that may be debated, but there's nothing to poll about. (I still cast my vote in favor or logs, but honestly, they'd be more work for the devs than they're really worth)

Re: Combat results log
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Who is best suited to deciding what we want" is actually what I intended to mean. I'm guilty of poor phrasing. For that, I apologize.

Re: Combat results log
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since you play HoI, you should appreciate that this isn't always true. Paradox, the developers of HoI, consults closely with the C.O.R.E. team (which has practically re-written that entire game), and frequently incorporates many of their changes into the official code. Of course, Paradox has exposed their AI to modding, and IW hasn't (at least not yet).

[ March 07, 2004, 12:30: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Combat results log
 

Heh, I am torn.

Making combat reports easier to use and more helpful is the area I would most love to see development in. The area of the game that people seem to have the least control in is the combat results so being able to both learn from them and see results reasonably quickly (IE. not having to restart a 5 minute battle because you missed something) is fairly important (not just to me, I suspect).

A long log of results would satisfy one area, making it easier to analyze the results but, at the same time, contributes nothing to the speed at which one can do so.

As far as AAR's, they are nice, I appreciate reading them...but, afaik, the majority of people don't write AAR's, nor would they even do so if they had a log of combat events. If slider controls or advance/reverse turn buttons aren't possible, a text log would be an ok substitution but I wouldn't do it mainly for the sake of AAR's.

As far as needs vs. wants, don't forget that they aren't mutually exclusive. I would say that while our needs and our wants certainly can diverge, they are, perhaps even more often, the same thing.

Last comment, it's only really partly true that it's the developers game. They are responsible for, deserve credit for, and are in charge of, the code...and I am not, AT ALL, saying that any developer 'owes' gamers any continued development (except for bug fixes). That said, the game wouldn't have been distributed if people weren't buying it so let's not act as if this is freeware your friend wrote for you in his spare time and noone has any right to ask for something more in the face of such altruism.

Sorry it got long, kind of a response to a lot of thoughts that have been discussed lately http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Combat results log
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is because, as a general rule, by and large, people are idiots and don't know what they really want or what they're asking for.

As one who's administered a game in the past, I find that certain individuals are very good at making suggestions, while the bulk of the population tends to snivel and whine for things that are either completely unfeasible, or have immediately forseeable negative consequences (that they are either unable to see, or deliberately hoping you won't).

Generally, I find it best to deal with such players by harsh punishments, generally administered discreetly through code. In this way, I can discredit the offending player by making him appear even more incompetent, so nobody will take him seriously, and he will be subjected to mockery and ostracism by his peers.

By pitting players against each other in such a manner, I distract the common rabble from any issues which might give them cause to complain, and instead focus their ire on their fellow players. This way, they stop bothering me and kill each other.

[ March 08, 2004, 05:53: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Combat results log
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my experience, games that have turn logs that are used for AAR writing only end up in a number of AARs that are boring to read. Mostly because people use them as a crutch to actually writing something. Do I want to be innundated by dull AARs? No thanks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You, sir, obviously have not been reading EU2, HOI, or Victoria AARs. What is a crutch for the crippled can be a gift for the gifted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Combat results log
 

No, but he has been reading Machiavelli's book on game admining. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif