Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

I'm a little confused about blood slaves and blood gems...

There's an item I wanted my mage to create, but required blood gems, so I go on a blood hunt...I find 5 virgins, and thought by sacrificing them I recieved blood gems...I'm playing Marignon, and have 2 mages with 1 in blood magic, but don't see an option to sacrifice...

After looking around this forum some, let me see if I have this right...

Can Marignon mages perform a sacrifice at all, even if they have blood magic attribute?
You can sacrifice slaves in combat for blood magic (think the answer to that is YES)?
Outside of combat, sacrificing only ups your dominion, and then only for certain Races?
Only way to find blood gems is to find a blood site/shrine/mine/whatever?

Anything I left out?

Thanks for the help....

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

There's no such thing as blood gems. The cost of item forging and spellcasting is actually in blood slaves themselves - they're sacrificed during the creation of the item or spell. Just make sure they're in the lab instead with whoever captured them.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

OK, looked under the magic area (where you can transfer gems to commanders) and had 5 under blood...how do I sacrifice to get blood gems?

I'm in my home province, so I have a lab present..

Thanks

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

I found it...I just transfer them to the lab, and they show up as regular gems...

Thanks for the insight...

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is English your first language? There seems to be some kind of communications barrier here. This isn't meant to be an insult, I just want to make sure you understand.

There is no such thing as "blood gems." Only "blood slaves." You cast spells using "blood slaves," you forge items using "blood slaves."

Every other type of magic uses "gems", blood magic uses "slaves."

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

Blood slaves *ARE* blood gems.

I do not think Marignon can perform blood sacrifices. (Maybe Diabolic Faith, but I doubt it). Only Vanheim, Jotunheim, Abysia, and Mictlan can perform sacrifices. Mictlan's sacrifices are mandatory for dominion spread. The others have optional sacrifices.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

Some comments might get someone confused, so I'll add my few words in too.

Blood slaves are the Blood magic counterpart for the gems of other magics. You need BLOOD, not just colourful minerals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Blood Sacrifices have nothing to do with magic: they are religious rites. Each sacrificed slave (more can be sacrificed per turn, propably limited by the priest level of the sacrificer) forces one "temple check", that is, each sacrificed slave spreads the dominion just as a temple in that province would.

In short, Blood Sacrifice increases you dominion.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

All of the things said so far are correct and good. I'll just try to put it in my own words too, in the hope that they match the original poster's.

Blood slaves (the virgins you found) are *functionally equivalent* to the other types of gems. Yes, you can pool them by "putting them in the lab". You can also carry them around with you (just like mages can carry around the other types of gems), they will be in your mages' inventory as little red "X"s, BUT (and this is the difference to the gems) they will stand around on the battlefield (and can get hurt too) if the mage carrying them gets into a battle.

Terminologically, you do NOT "sacrifice" blood slaves on the battlefield; you "use" them (like you "use" gems). You can think of it as a form of sacrifice, sure, but in this game, the terminus "sacrifice" is ONLY used for a special activity which ONLY *priests* of Abyssia, Mictlan and Vanheim can do: namely: sacrifice blood slaves in order to raise dominion. This is not done during a battle. It is a "special action" (like: "perform assassination" or "preach the teachings of God" or however it is exactly phrased).

The ONLY way to find blood slaves is to perform a "blood hunt" (which is also a special action) (with ONE exception: Mictlan gets 3 blood slaves per turn). AFAIK there is NO "blood slave source" similar to a gem site (but I may be wrong).

Is this helpful?

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Back to this question after some tests, and some experience with Mictlan. IMHO the chance to expand dominion with blood sacrifice is _very_ limited, and _much_ less than a ordinary "temple check".
1 ordinary temple check = probably 10% * maximum dominion (so you have 60% chance to gain 1 candle if your pretender has a max dom of 6).
1 slave sacrifice = probably 2,5% * maximum dominion (so the chance to raise dominion with 1 slave is only 15% with a max dom of 6).

If I understand correctly, the pretender alone, by his mere presence in the capital, has a bigger effect in the first turns than the possible 2 slaves sacrifice with a Mictlan Priest!
Can someone confirm this feeling ? TIA

Cheers

[ May 19, 2004, 14:18: Message edited by: Sunray_be ]

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure that your sacrificers still have slaves on them when you submit the turn? They won't actually sacrifice any if you use the pool slaves button, but will grab some more at the beginning of the next turn.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your pretender only has a single strength 10 check with Mictlan, so no, even with your numbers he's still weaker.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">C'mon, yes, I checked my sacrificers every turn to be absolutely sure... it's not my first test with dominions you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I've made 3 tests with a dom10 pretender (a Manticore IIRC, on a large map and one opponent with dom1, so he could not influence my own dominion). Started 3 new games, then did nothing for 20 turns (no sacrifice, no move, no recruitment). I had no "festival" events. After 20 turns I had 4, 8 and 9 candles.

Then I tried the opposite : the dom10 pretender goes far away (so he could not influence the capital) and I sacrifice only 1 slave/t with the first Mictlan Priest. After 20 turns the dominion = 6 candles. Then I tried the same situation with another pretender, this time with a dominion of 6. After 20 turns (and 20 slaves killed -- I could have made 4 Fiends instead) the dominion was only 3. Tried again, the dominion was 5. Tried again, it was 4. No doubt, with dom6 the pretender was more useful than the sacrifices!

I can't understand why the manual says (p. 22) that "The Blood Sacrifice will spread dominion in the same manner as a temple but more powerfully".
The power of a blood sacrifice seems very weak, unless you sacrifice tons of slaves...

Cheers

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is also the damned merchant site (on top of my head)

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

I have to backup (or is it bake up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) Sunray on the issue. If one blood slave sacrifice is supposed to be equivalent in power of the dominions spread of one temple, then, unless I have been totally unlucky during several tests, and in at least a pbem as Abysia, I must say there is a bug in the formula. The effect is much lower than expected.

Do the check yourself, you will see.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is also the damned merchant site (on top of my head) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also, at least one or two random events give blood slaves / virgins.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

There's also a rare wizard academy sort of site which gives a blood slave per turn, and one of the Demon Lords automatically attracts blood slaves and arrow fodder. Or you could wish for blood slaves...

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think you truly comprehend the awesome might of blood sacrifices on dominion spreading. Firstly, for maximum effect, you need strong dominion strength: Build a lot of temples, or take high dominion at creation.

Secondly, to avoid having the effect buried in background noise....sacrifice a *LOT* of blood slaves. In most of my Mictlan games, I generally drown my opponent's dominion in a sea of blood well before I ever face him, sometimes before I ever meet him, as my dominion strength can hit 10 in places 3 provinces out from the nearest border. I don't think you properly appreciate the power of the Sea of Blood.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow. Care to elaborate? How many is a lot? How many slaves are you sacrificing per turn nationwide? On a given front, do you use multiple sacrificers in multiple provinces? What level priests do you use?

Secondly, is it worth using all those slaves to do that, rather than, say, summoning demons or forging soul contracts? Or are you swimming in enough blood slaves to do both?

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What I'm wondering is about how many searchers and patrollers do you like to put in a given province per thousand population? I'm never quite sure just how much the deaths from patrolling are offset by the growth scale.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What I'm wondering is about how many searchers and patrollers do you like to put in a given province per thousand population? I'm never quite sure just how much the deaths from patrolling are offset by the growth scale. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Number of searchers don't have much to do with number of population in bloodhunted province. As long as population is larger than 5000 it is irrelivent. The number of slaves produced by your sercahers AND unrest generated by them will still be the same. I always try to choose the least income-wise province from 5000-6000 pop range, to give some breathing space for population loss due to bloodhunting and patrolling, while avoiding crippling more populated and rich provinces.

Not sure about patrollers though.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The question is really about the interplay between the growth scale, unrest generated by bloodhunting, and population death caused by patrollers. There is likely to be some ideal combination that gives you the most benefits here.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The question is really about the interplay between the growth scale, unrest generated by bloodhunting, and population death caused by patrollers. There is likely to be some ideal combination that gives you the most benefits here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps. But I was answering the "per thousand " part of your question, since whatver that ideal combination would be the number of population in the province is not part of it, since most efficient bloodhunting provinces would still be at 5K-6/7K population range, no matter how many searchers and partollers you have there and what your growth scale is (unless you took high death scale which may not be very good for bloodhunting purposes).

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One fully loaded, slightly experienced Tribal King(65 slaves) can reliably and completely control unrest for two SDR hunters. A newbie(50) TK sometimes loses control in spikes.

With growth-2, I can sustain a relatively stable population with one patrolling Tribal King and two SDR-equipped Mictlan Priests, in a province of > 15K pop, since the province grows at about 600 people per turn, and the patrol kills are maybe in the 100-300 range. With populations of less than 15K, I tend to go with just one hunter for patrolled hunting, and for provinces of < 8K, I forget about the patrollers and just do 0-tax hunts with 2 Priests per province. Any province with > 4K population gets hunted. The blood must flow.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What you are missing is that a province with a large enough population can grow in population faster than the patrols can kill it off, as long as only a certain number of blood hunters work that province. So yes, population definetly does matter.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

That, of course, only applies if you are hunting under Growth scale. If you're not hunting under Growth, then this entire point is kind of moot, and you may as well just savage the province and move on.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you're playing for the long term, then that's not a particulary good plan. You can get many more slaves out of a given province in the long term by putting three hunters in it and turning taxes to 0.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One fully loaded, slightly experienced Tribal King(65 slaves) can reliably and completely control unrest for two SDR hunters. A newbie(50) TK sometimes loses control in spikes.

With growth-2, I can sustain a relatively stable population with one patrolling Tribal King and two SDR-equipped Mictlan Priests, in a province of > 15K pop, since the province grows at about 600 people per turn, and the patrol kills are maybe in the 100-300 range. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats quite wrong, a 15k pop @growth+2 give birth to 60 people a turn.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

Maybe I am missing something here, but why would somebody want to bloodhunt 15K province? IMHO it doesn't make sense from economical point of view.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, that's right, missed a zero. The patrol losses are more like 10-30, then.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A 15K province can be patrol-hunted for minimal tax loss, since you don't need to drop taxes to hunt there: Also, the higher population allows Growth to offset the kills from blood hunting.

Finally, you'll often have a fort in such provinces, which allows you to protect a lab/temple infrastructure, as well as your blood hunters, so they are not all killed by random marauders. The patrollers are still at risk, but they often tend to be cheap or expendable things.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

btw is not normal that bloodhunting is considered to happen inside a castle. You can always find fancy explainations sure, but it would be more logical to rework wich orders are performed in a castle, and which ones are considered to be done outside: bloodhunt, preach*, etc.

* if the province dont have a temple, as a temple is considered to be in a castle.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think even that Last remark doesn't weaken your argument. IMV Temples also represents the local clergy, who helps your preachers to fulfill their mission (gathering fidels for the ceremonies, etc.). I think preaching should always be done outdoors, and blood sacrifices indoors. After all, you can preach outside a castle you besiege, and can't perform sacrifices in the same situation.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A 15K province can be patrol-hunted for minimal tax loss, since you don't need to drop taxes to hunt there </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, I don't remember exact formula from the top of my head, but I though that unrest generated by bloodhunters is independent of province population. I remeber for sure that the number of slaves gathered are certanly independent of population, as long as it larger than 5000. Are you saying it is not so?

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The number of slaves is, indeed, independent of the population, as long as it is greater than 5K. The unrest generated, and therefore, kills by patrolling, are also independent of the population.

However, the population replenishment rate is NOT independent of the population: It is a percentage of the existing population that depends on your level of Growth scale. Obviously, if you are not hunting under growth scale, savaging the province with patrolled hunting is either a cost of business, or not acceptable, and therefore not done, in which case you should not hunt such provinces since you'd have to drop taxes.

In addition, valuable provinces are often targets for castles: As such, your blood hunters will be protected from random attack by the castle while they hunt, so your entire blood economy doesn't get annihilated in a single series of raids.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The number of slaves is, indeed, independent of the population, as long as it is greater than 5K. The unrest generated, and therefore, kills by patrolling, are also independent of the population.

However, the population replenishment rate is NOT independent of the population: It is a percentage of the existing population that depends on your level of Growth scale. Obviously, if you are not hunting under growth scale, savaging the province with patrolled hunting is either a cost of business, or not acceptable, and therefore not done, in which case you should not hunt such provinces since you'd have to drop taxes.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><nod> That's what I thought.

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

What I don't understand is why it matters if the population of a province is stable due to growth scale or not. Aren't you losing the same amount of population and therefore income potential regardless? I mean if you didn't hunt the province would grow...

Re: Blood Slave/magic Questions
 

That's the kind of attitude which results in clear-cutting forests, Mr. White. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif