So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

A friend of mine have been playing a few game together and after trying a few races we settled on Pythium and Arcoscephale.

So I look through this forum a little and I find that they are considered two of the strongest nations! Woohoo, we're not tards!

Sadly he got Pythium.

So ... uhm ... what the heck is the weakness of Pythium? Their normal troops seem "ok" nothing to write home about, a distinct lack of ranged troops but their melee troops are fine. Their casters OTOH are insane. Not only are they insanely powerful and very well setup for commune (which is gosh darn powerful) but they are sacred! So he can afford to have plenty of them. That's freaking scary.

I mean during the early parts of the game I think I can get the upper hand on him with the elephants and such. But once the mid game rolls around and he gets a critical mass of those Theurg's, Arch Theurg's and Theurg Acolytes I'm in for a real hurting (not to mention if he reads the forums he's going to do one of Alex's "The Perfect Storm's", eg: Cloud Trapeze + Wrathful Skies + Storm).

So what the heck is Pythium's weakness? Do they have one? Or do I have to basically hope that I am luckier than he is during the game to give me an edge?

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Pythium doesn't really have any particularly glaring weaknesses, as far as I can tell. Mostly everything about them as at least average, if not superior.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

You are playing Arcoscephale, which is another nation with few weaknesses. In the early game, your elephants and chariots can make short work of his troops. You don't have quite as easy access to communion, but your mystics are extremely powerful and versatile. You can always use the ones that don't have the skills you want as communion slaves, or use an earth 1 mystic to forge slave matrices and put them on the cheapest mages you can find. Druids, sages, magus and the like are good choices here.

You will also be fairly likely to have an air 3 mage, which can forge the boosters necessary to bring you much more common air 2 mystics to the point where they can easily cast wrathful skies. Of course, you also have access to all the fire, cold, and earth spells as well. Astrologers are very useful as well whenever you want to gate troops to the front quickly (give them a starshine skullcap and a whip of command). They are also useful as communion masters to give you access to death, blood and nature magic on the battlefield.

Your hoplites are great to hold the centre line, and you can always cast thunder ward to make them Last longer. The Hysapists are also very useful, and can be counted on to bolster the morale of any elephants that are in their squad.

Basically, as Arcosephale, you have access to heavy infantry that is the equal of any nations, elephants, all four types of elemental magic, astral magic, and basic nature magic. They don't have much in the way of weaknesses.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Pythium doesn't have any weaknesses per say. In order to fully utilize some of their more delicious abilities they have some things that they have to strive past.

Communions require Communion Slaves: Find a way to kill or cut the Slaves the mages will be much less effective in combat. Try Assassins/Artillery spells.

Hydras are slow and incompatible with certain army types without certain spells: Look and try to scout out your enemy so you know what he is combining and what spells they have access to, so you will have less of a disadvantage.

Early game, Pythium's javalins are extremely potent (as nearly all their troops carry them and allow them to soften before engaging). This can make a difference later in the game when the Pythium Player can Gateway in huge armies of troops to front lines, make sure you null this advantage (with Storm or Arrow Fend).

Wrathful Skies Combo and Foul Vapors Combo are both possible. Watch for them or null their effect on your large armies. Both Cloud Trapeze and Teleport work in their favor. Don't be caught unaware.

Orb Lightning/Soul Slay/Paralyze/Mind Burn + Quickness are all very common, as well as Smite from Communions with Arch or Normal Theurgs. (Also Falling Frost is fairly common). A Pythium player can also use most of the spells considered too expensive or gem heavy because of it, so dedicated 'magekillers' must be made if you want to kill large armies with mage support.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

BTW, Norfleet is your icon a picture of the commander from Total Annihilation? If so, kudos on having the taste to appreciate the best RTS currently in existence!

On and thanks for the reminder about their javelins Zen. Yeash.

I will need luck and lots of it (or … ahem … more knowledge of the more unbalanced spells in the game).

So .. uhm one more question, why are all of their casters sacred? Yes I know that they are priests and all but goly that’s quite an advantage.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

One of their few weaknesses is that they are not that versatile, when it comes to magic. The sole mage which has a random slot is the A-Theurg, costing a whopping 380 gold. Compares this to Arco. So you know what is coming at you (pretender excluded) when you deal with Pythium : air/astral mages.
Not that it does you much good, because air & astral are both very potent magics. But at least you can think lightning ward and antimagic as soon as you see them.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is indeed the ARM Commander from Total Annihilation, the best RTS made to date. Naturally, on my site, anyone who disagrees is a heretic and must be burned at the stake.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Well, Pythium Prov Defense is pure crap...
You can use that to grab provinces with stealthy troops or very small armies.
I've seen a 4-men Ulm army rout a Pythium Prov Def of 21 ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
As a competent Pythium player won't invest in big PDs it also eases your scouts/spies/assassins work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Note that Arco doesn't fare much better here. But hey that's a weakness !

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Guess I too should pop in to offer some quick words of advice. I've gone up against Pythium tons of times as they are my friends favorite nation.

Negate their javelins and they will fall. As Zen already mentioned it's a very good idea to make a beeline for those spells that will screw up his ability to use them. Your heavily armoured infantery is resource expensive but a lot tougher than his regular units (as well as very durable against even withering javelin fire), forcing him to forgoe javelineers for the much more expensive Emerald Guards.

Masses of thightly packed infantery means your elephants and chariots will pack the largest possible damage. Group them with heart companions to up their morale and set them to hold and attack behind a screen of Hoplites.

Astral is perhaps the most devastating magic against solitary powerful units. It sucks against hordes though so if he starts leaning on mages, you start churning out the battalions.

Your Astrologers, especially a 4 astral one, can do everything his mages can. Use the Astral assassination spells to take them out without their annyoing communicant slaves.

Your mystics span the full range of magic but are vulnerable to magic duels. An astral assassination spell might also take them out. I would switch to nonastral mages as soon as could find them.

Your priestesses can cure every ailment. Milk this ability for all its worth. Draw him into battle in low supply areas, where you can cure disease but he can't. Toss disease spells at him even if it strikes your own units. Take a moment to rest your armies to cure them completely. While his veterans get chipped away with time yours will endure. Go all out SC pretender to spearhead your armies. (preferably one with high magic resistance) You can always heal it when it starts losing limbs.

He will use assassins against you, if he knows what's good for him, so stick a few bodyguards on your most valuable mages.

Take the construction path if you can. Constructs are immune to most of the things he can toss at you and pretty cheap for their punch. I remember overrunning Pythium completely with massed Lumber Constructs but that was a stroke of luck I must admit. Nevertheless it helps your armies if you can stick a few golemlike beings in the front line. You got cheap laboratories so healing them is no problem, especially since your priestesses are also skilled greasemonkeys.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

The question I'd ask (which some people have already said) is not 'what is Pythium's weakness?' so much as 'what is Arco's strength?'. And Arco's strength is incredibly versatile magic - you have strong astral, and strong elemental magic - you can cast over half the spells out there. So you need to know your spells, and use them to your advantage. Pythium won't be able to stand up to the kind of battlefield enchantments that you can ward your troops against (even if it's only partial warding). Of course you do have the Achilles' heel of Mind Duel, which you'll have to watch out for.

Like others have said, watch out for the javelins - but since you don't have missile troops to speak of yourself, get yourself a staff of storms and/or cast mist to decrease their effectiveness

Plus there are lots of fun things you can do with elephants, if you plan right...

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

I remember someone who killed enemy's mages with Chariots: the other guy hadn't realised his mages might be in danger even during storm... And the falnkers were trampled through! That might work with elephants too, as they can get trample through lines of larger protectors.

Does Mind Duel kill all the communicants? IIRC right spells that target a communion master affect all his slaves too. Although Incinerate or Frozen Heart, heck, even Charm of Hellbind Heart could work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Hm, have you considered using Golden Era and trying to out-research him?

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Try if you could get "Rain of Stone" to work. It's an Evocation 7 battlefield spell, which can only be countered by armor. So, in *theory*, you could "Cloud Trapeze" or "Teleport" a few of your *armored* Mystics into his main army, scipt them to cast the spell and then leave. If hit, each casting cause 14 damage to unarmored units. Two to three is enough to kill most mages on the battlefield. But I've not seen it used often in human game. So, I don't know how effective that actuall is.

If you have access to cheap Nature 2 mage, "Howl" is another possibility. The summoned wolves might attack from behind. But I don't know how effective that is in Dom 2.

As the others said, you mages and infantries are as good as his. His mages are strong but yours are versatile. You could have access to high level earth, water and fire spells that he can't ward against. But overall, it'll be a contest of economic resource.

[ March 10, 2004, 17:02: Message edited by: ywl ]

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In general this is true. However the problem is that his mages are sacred. This effectivly doubles the number of mages he can have. Yokies! I really think that this is the crux of the problem. His costs are lower due to the sacred modifier.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I have not checked the numbers I doubt that anyone will be able to compete with sacred researchers for price/performance.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seems that people think that Pythium has inflexable battle ground magic. I don't know if I agree. They have strong astral, decent air, and decent water. They also have a random pick. Don't forget that due to them being excellently setup for communion those little randoms can easily become level 3 or 4 in combat and then they become real power.

Normally that would not be too much of a problem. However with their reduced maintainance costs they can really pump these guys out.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think in general Pythium's armies are slightly sub-standard. They are not horrible by any means but they just do not have a "killer troop" (unless you count hydras, but their maintainance is too much for my taste).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A nice ability to be sure. Really helps out those supercombatants!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True enough. It goes back to their army being somewhat sub-standard. Still sacred casters ... yeash.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that the greatness of the game grew out of the interface infinate queuing changes everything. The only faw in with the game was the unbalanced units. This was mostly fixed in uberhack (it only took them like 6 years!!) but it took a while.

Oh and the TA-Hook is something that should have been included as well! It changed the game!

A TA2 with updated graphics, uberhack level (or better!) balance, the hook, and a good matchmaking system (a-la WC3) would be the best game ever produced.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Being sacred isn't all that overwhelming of a cost difference.

With your ability to Heal and your Mystics versitility you can make much more in the way of SC's. (Golems, etc) And equip them properly. Arco is no slouch at all when it comes to dealing with Pythium.

Use Astrologers to Pre-Doom his large armies then use your own Wrathful Skies/Returning Mystics to cripple his forces.

Your higher end Astral Mage (Astrologers) cost much less so you will have more than he will, allowing you to duel him more successfully.

Don't forget that Elephants if used in high enough squads won't rout, which will destroy ranks of infantry and cavalry (until his mages get at them).

The pretender will be your key factor and how you use him.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They won't Last long vs Pythium however. Soul Slay (count on a Pythium human player to get it quick if a war with Arco or Caelum is likely) targets big creatures first, and with their pitiful MR elephants rarely survive it. Unless Pythium prefers to enslave them.

BTW I remember a funny Arco/Pythium battle in Doms 1 where a few pachyderms changed sides several times in the same battle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That must have been confusing experience:
- "He is your enemy!"
- "No, he is!"
- "He is lying, he is the enemy!"
- "Kill him, he is the enemy!"
- ...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
[quote]
But overall, it'll be a contest of economic resource.
Seems that people think that Pythium has inflexable battle ground magic. I don't know if I agree. They have strong astral, decent air, and decent water. They also have a random pick. Don't forget that due to them being excellently setup for communion those little randoms can easily become level 3 or 4 in combat and then they become real power.

Normally that would not be too much of a problem. However with their reduced maintainance costs they can really pump these guys out.

Quote:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not Pythiums having inflexible battle magic. It's Arco having very flexible battle magic. His Arch-Theurg is 380 a piece. Being sacred reduce maintainence cost by half - 190/15. It's still more expensive to maintain than your mytics and astrologer, not to mention twice amount of initial cost.

Theurg is 150 a piece and cheap but they don't have the random pick. A large number of Theurgs with "Quickness", firing off "Starfire" and "Orb Lightning" is formidable. But it's not uncounterable for Arco.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Huzurdaddi --

Check the Philosophers. They're *very* cheap, being pure researchers (heck, they don't even get a single point of magic) -- 50 gold gets you 5 RP plus magic scale. On a GP/RP basis, the cheapest mainline Pythium researcher is 150 gp Theurg with 6 RP (25gp/RP). In magic +3 the GP/RP costs for a Philosopher drop to 6.25; heck, even in Drain 3 that's 50 AU/2RP which is as good as the Theurg in magic-0 on a pure gold basis.

The one limitation on Philosophers is that they're capital-only. The resulting opportunity cost is what'll hurt.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm..excuse my ignorance, but what is a Philosopher? I'm playing Arco right now and I don't have any in my capital. I played Pythium, and don't remember them there either although I'm pretty sure you meant Arco, right?

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Philosopher's a Golden Era-specific unit, from the Akademia magic site. That same site also allows you to recruit stealth+0 Sceptics for tearing down dominion (including yours!).

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

But if you go golden era you lose two of your principle advanatges: great mages and elephants. You also lose the very efficient Hypaspist. In return you get ... uhm ... a good research and some flying units.

Uhm. Ok.

So maybe I can sort of out research him with this setup, but uhm I have no casters. That's worth something I guess. I just don't know what.

I'll stick with plain vanilla Arco, thanks.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suggest you look more closely. You still have mystics.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Pythium is a very well-balanced nation, due to it's strong and reasonably versatile mages, it's solid principes, and having the option of going w/ a bless effects unit or w/ giant poisonous monsters.

However, if it has a weakness I would say it is its slower early expansion. Principes by themselves are not that optimal at taking out independents, esp. w/ high indep settings. As well, it takes a while for it to ramp up magery to any sort of potent threat. Arcos elephants help it quite a bit in the early game expansion, thus hopefully giving it a moderate economic edge for the mid-game.

However, Pythium can deal w/ this (if it doesn't go for super vestals) by getting a strong fighting pretender. But those tend to rack up afflictions, as opposed to an Arcos SC, and become less valuable as the game progresses.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

One thing I like about Golden Age Arco a lot is the Skeptic. It's fun to tear down other people's dominion, especially when it is an especially dangerous one like Carrion Woods or either of the two toxic Ermor themes.

Re: So what is Pythium\'s weakness?
 

Uhm. Pythium expands as fast as a Elephant nation. Principes along with Theurg/Arch-Theurgs with their javelins and tower shields make for strong expanders that have good reinforcement capability because of the Stratmove of 2, the only thing they are not good at taking out are HCav/Knights, which is just fine.