Observations after a month of play
 

- Provinces don't seem to have any natural growth rate without Growth scale, and i can't emphasise enough how detrimental this seems to be. Just a tiny natural growth rate of 0.2 or so would be sufficient.

- Growth/Death weakest of the scales. You never take Death unless you must, and you shouldn't take Growth over Order if you want income. In theory a large empire could grow by a few gold per turn into a much larger empire than one that used only Order and suffered the normal pop loss (random events, patrolling, ect), but im fairly sure it doesn't work this way. Order provides simply far too much income for Growth to overtake it during the length of a normal game.

Unless the effect of the Growth scale is increased i'd suggest adding some sort of additional combat effect. Like, say, Growth dominion has 5% chance of healing an affliction per level for both friend and enemy units; Death perhaps the opposite (excepting maybe undead/demon units). Or just drop the afflictions for Death but add them for Growth. Or perhaps add reinvigoration per level (1/2/3)? (The idea being the inhabitants of a fertile, sopophoric land are more vigorous and have greater health and stamina; the opposite could be true for a Death dominion).

-Mercenaries feel somewhat too powerful. I find myself using them obsessively no matter which faction or scales taken. The real problem is that the AI doesn't seem eager enough to hire Mercs rather than their combat effectiveness.

[edit: actually just noticed something new. Scales seem to affect Merc hiring cost? Testing a 3-Disorder/3-Sloth Pangaea Merc companies were about 1.25 to 2x more expensive.]

-Golem Cult, Water Cult seem the least used and useful Special Dominions.

-The Lord of Fertility's advertised passive benefit has no apparent effect.

-Rain.1/4 pop drowning.1/4 income vanishing.Too hard with the Sucking.

-Bogus! Dude.

[ March 16, 2004, 01:47: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a game. Some things are unrealistic for balance. And some nations benefit from death. There's a spell that benefits from growth.

[ March 16, 2004, 02:17: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

Balance is the reason i want natural growth. Every patrol = permanent income reduction, forever. Every anti-citizen random or spell = permaloss. Every blood hunt permaloss.

IF you don't have growth you shouldn't expect to make up large losses, but you shouldn't HAVE to reduce taxes instead of patrolling, which is pretty much it seems your only option.

BTW, which spells are affected by Growth?

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it has more to do with being Pangaea. Many merc companies dislike Pangaea and charge extra for you to hire them. I get this a bit with Ermor, too. Some of those nice holy-type people don't like me at all.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Provinces grow of their own accord, even if you don't have the scales tipped towards growth.

Growth increases the pop increase by .02% for every notch farther u have it tipped.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No they don't. Population, barring random events or activity, does not change at ALL without growth or death. Only growth, and a few rare random events, and wishing for population, increases population. Just about everything else kills people.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

i hope I'm not the only one who finds it weird to see someone complaining about Growth being weak, and then complaining that population doesn't increase without any growth. Wait a minute. Waaiiiit a minute. I have an idea here...

Take some growth scale! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Then your population will increase! Ooo, it's like magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

EDIT: And if that isn't enough for you, try running a blood-focused nation (Abysia is probably easiest) without any growth. It will rapidly become apparent to you why it's a good thing.

[ March 16, 2004, 04:53: Message edited by: Sindai ]

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

Water Cult is very useful... for all land nations with strong or numerous sacred units, like Machaka, Mictlan, Jotunheim, Marignon... even Abysia. It is the most powerful generic special dominion for such races, on water maps.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

and for golem cult, try playing pythium with con-10 cyclops, research to enchantment 6 and start casting enliven statues with your god...

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Silly Mercenaries. 90% of the armies in Pangaea are made up of crazy, drunk, naked women. They should be paying -me- to enlist in my service.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which summons are considered Golems? Anything under the construction branch, or anything summoned by Earth? Ive tried it a couple times but never long enough to see its effect. How many hp does it add?

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

I agree that Mercs, at least some of them, are often too powerful. Certainly the Eternal Knights are. I also slavishly recruit all the mercs I can, whenever I can, even if it is only simply to keep my enemies from recruiting them.

As to Blood nations with no Growth: I play Abysia with some death (not a lot, usually 1-2) and it works just perfectly; capture 2-3 15k provinces, and that is fine for at least 30+ turns of blood hunting, then go get more. (Abysia gets no income or supply penalty for Death, so it's only population loss to worry about, and as of now, Death is so minor...)
A tiny bit more growth/attrition for growth/death scales would also be welcome in my book.

I think a nice idea would be to have a chance of "natural growth", but only if your dominion is that province is fairly strong. For each point of dominion, you could have a 5% chance of a .02 growth in one turn, all things being equal. Growth scales would add to this, and Death detract.

The 1/4 population drop bad incidents is certainly too much for its fictionalization, one would have to call it a "serious plague" or something. I hate it when it happens, too, but dont feel it should be nerfed, because otherwise Luck/Misfortune scales will be made even weaker than they already are.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I would not say that they are too powerful; I'd rather say that they are insanely powerful! The most effective way to counter them is saving your money for the troops you intend to feed them and use it on the next possibility o bid for them! But I am also not sure whether this should be fixed. After all: Evereybody can bid for them...

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Eternal Knights are usful, but they certainly aren't overwhelmingly powerful. A handful of crossbowmen will kill them quite easily.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Eternal Knights are usful, but they certainly aren't overwhelmingly powerful. A handful of crossbowmen will kill them quite easily. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didnt mean to impy that they are indestructable, although surely it will take more than just a "handful" of Xbows.
I meant: They are too powerful *for their price*. The E-Knights cost 100 gold.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then you should compete for them when they show up. And yes, I have had them completely defeated by only 20 crossbows. They only have a protection of 12, which means that even shortbows could do it.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

Yes, I do compete for them.
I meant: 100 GP worth of E-Knights is better than 100 GP worth of anything else (unless you count fully upgraded and equipped high-research-level mages). That is what I mean by "too powerful".
And 20 Crossbows is slightly more than a handful in my book. But then again, my book is entitled Analytik und Ethik der Namen, so that probably means squat.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OT
Ethik der Namen? Just What the heck do you study ? Germanistik?

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

OTOT: nope, I teach philosophy at a German university and research at a philosophical research institute. Publish mostly in English though, except for that longer (but groovy) work. Sorry was meant to be a joke, now it is turning into a shameless plug. Forget it.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You wont get them for that 100 gold in MP, and in SP the problem isn't too powerful mercs, but rather the AIs poor bidding style.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

OK.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

Bogus showed up in one of my SP games the other night. Think I was playing Ulm. I ran his kill total up to several hundred before I just left him alone and started concentrating on the AIs. That wraith sword on a regenerative creature with his other items is nasty.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the point of mercenaries though. They are supposed to be better than what you could buy for the same gold cost. Hector's Heavy Horse for example would cost far more than 220 gold if you recruited them yourself.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is actually a realistic strategy: In ancient times, rulers *DID*, in fact, hire mercenaries often for the purpose of denying them to their enemies, not to mention keeping unemployed mercenaries from becoming bandits.

If you feel a merc is too powerful for its asking price, and people agree, that mercenary company will be quickly bid up in price to whatever people feel it's actually worth. If you're getting them at bargain basement prices, people must not feel they're worth hiring.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice, which university? I am thinking about studying philosophy next year, so maybe you can give some recomendations.

Re: Observations after a month of play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now that could be a fun random event - mercenaries who remain unemployed for too long start randomly pillaging provinces for cash!
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