Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

the only army that could would probably be a ulm smith with mechanical dragons or mechanical men i'd reckon or other storm demons(dont mention any of those please as i already know).
Please say a army/summons with a nationbased(dont mention unique items either) or summonable non unique commander(as you can't rely on unique ones on a huge map cause they are too few cept maybe fire/water demons)


Vanadrott(non-empowered with one random in air)

5 air 1 blood.(2 air gems)
equipped with staff of storms, jade armor, ring of fire, winged helmet, ring of lightning.

has 5 storm demons infront of the vanadrott in the back corner as a entourage.

set to cast storm power, wrathful skies, aim, aim, aim.

tell me how you beat it, just tried several of them vs ermor against up to 700 sized armies.

size doesn't seem to matter vs this strategy.(althought assassins waste gems trying to assassinate them(my gems) and nightmare kills them sometimes).

[ March 16, 2004, 21:09: Message edited by: DLC ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking of us. This army is far from unbeatable, and if you don't set any constraints on the puzzle, like how much material can be deemed to be a reasonable amount to commit, then the problem becomes a trivial exercise in excessive force. Exactly what level of resources is reasonable to assume?

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

Rings of lightning immunity are remarkably cheap and simple to build, and blood vengeance is far from invulnerability given the availability of MR items and commanders with decent base MRs. Elemental armor ain't rare either. Mistform gets dispelled by magical weapon hits.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

no troops that are lightning resistant(storm demons, mechanical men, mechanical dragon, othernesses etc).

preferably no wind mage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif first nation i'd seek to eradicate is man, caelum and r'lyeh.

remove one wind from him btw, i removed the bag of winds.

any army is fine as long as it isn't exaggerated like 10x25 gem nature summoned dragons(forgot the name of them blah).

1 commmander only limit also http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

blah removed the bloodslave and the bloodvengeance and mistwarriors.

[ March 16, 2004, 21:09: Message edited by: DLC ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

So you want me to kill you with an army that consists of a single commander....how about I just drop my pretender on you? That doesn't technically cost me any gems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

ok i'm done now hehe, nor more editings.

drop whatever you got one my army now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

dominion scales are neutral.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">only one commander, no unit limit tho

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

your pretender is unique btw so he doesn't count http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

can't count on him to fight for you on a huge map either, if i was on a huge map i'd refit my commander with a flying armor instead of that jade one.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. As a World Map player, I play on huge maps all the time, and I *DO* count on my pretender for fighting: In fact, my pretender is the only thing I can reliably get to mobilize in force on a moment's notice, since I'm usually camping out in a lab (airbase), waiting to airdrop into hot spots.

I think that a decently equipped Tartarian should be able to accomplish the job just fine, though.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

*shrug* Again, lightning immunity is cheap to put onto any commander with a spare misc slot.
A Bane Lord with a Ring of Tamed Lightning and an amulet of magic resistance would probably do it for cheap -- takes only 1 air, 1 astral, a couple death. Comes with a magical weapon so mistform is meaningless, will laugh off the wrathful skies, has good enough MR to ignore the phantasmal weapons and to bypass blood vengeance, and doesn't get tired.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

Uhm.

Ice Devil (with arms)

Blood Thorn
Lucky Coin
Winged Helmet
Elemental Armor
Winged Boots
Antimagic Amulet
Ring of Regeneration

Set to Cast: Quickness, Breath of Winter, Attack -Wherever.

Edit: Or if you don't have access to fire/earth, Rainbow Armor/Ring of Tamed Lightning

[ March 16, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

I'm not really familiar with what your force does exactly, but I don't think a strong opponent would have any difficulty finding antidotes to this. Cheap units that can be given magic items, given anti-shock items and wicked but cheap magic weapons.

PvK

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

dont *edit* "dis"count the physical prowess of the storm devils, their melee attack is still armor negatating even tho the lightning part of their attack do no damage the strenght does damage.
i wanna see your ice devil take on them as i am not sure of the outcome.

i could switch the storm devils for some very slow grand melee units(guard commander) and add "cast storm warriors"(or thunder ward which is much cheaper) and 1 more air gem but that's a bit too much research for me, now gimme a non lightning immune army to challenge this one if it's possible.

it's great for anything but caelum,storm devils,lots of mechanical dragons&men and ry'leh othernesses.

now gimme more suggestions ^_^

[ March 16, 2004, 23:03: Message edited by: DLC ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

Uhm. That ID will tear up that army. Test it for yourself by making your own game with your army and an opponent with that equipped ID.

The ID will win every time. Even without any XP, with XP he's even better. A good way to get 2 or 3 stars easy is to send that ID against an Indy and he'll mop them up no problems.

Give you a Non-Lightning Immune army that beats that one? Why? Are you ignoring the fact that you can very easily get lightning resistance?

That army is very easily beatable by a SC, or if you prefer, an army.

How about 30 Mandragoras?

[ March 16, 2004, 23:22: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

(Abysia default theme) I dunno what a Vanadrott is, but since you only have 6 total units (correct?) they are easily killed by fires from afar. Maybe two or 3 castings to get them all.

(C'tis default theme) If that doesn work, get 10 death mages, set to summon lammashtas and retreat. That will summon 20 lammashtas.

(whatever) If that doesn't work, maybe falling fires or falling frost with fodder to distract the devils.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Orrrrr how about 200 manikins? Global Enchantment: Haunted Forest, get 10 shamans, script "Swarm" each with one gem. The devils attack the swarm, the swarm turns into manikins. LOL!! 30 Mandragora are easily killed by 5 supercombatants, but 200 dragonfly-transformers are not.

Edit: Holy crap, that just gave me an idea for assassinations!!!! Script assassin: Swarm. The commander/body guard attacks the swarm, the swarm turns into manikins. ALMOST impossible to beat, unless the assassin is killed by a high-precision spell first combat round.

[ March 17, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unless, of course, the object of your assassination is misunfortunately outside of your dominion.....as is often the case.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

Well, one time in a 1v1 game, I setup my assassins so that each turn, the army comming toward me would be assassinated. It worked really well except for the fact that each assassin died. BUT NOT THIS TIME!

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

I would not be entirely displeased if the "insect to manikin" exploit vanished, as it strikes me as a bit bizarre.

Say, the manikin goodness only happens if size 2-4 (turning larger things into Carrion Beasts as available) or something like that.

Regarding Winged Helm -- curiously, the bit about it enabling flying commanders to fly during storms vanished during the upgrade Dom1 to Dom2, if memory serves.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

How about 1 harvester of sorrows ? ;p

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

A single air 5 Vanadrott with blood vengeance, wrathful skies and 5 storm demons? That's not very hard to beat.

With Caelum:
1 Storm General
25 Storm Guard
1 Seraph: Thunder Ward
3 Mammoths.
11 Wingless.

The storm guard will tie up the demons and the Vanadrott in the first tuen, then the Mammoths will show up and wipe them out if they aren't already dead.

With anyone else, thunder ward works wonders and only requires an air one mage to use 2 gems to cast.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

One Harvest of Sorrow alone won't work.

It's unfair to disallow units like clockwork horror, spring hawk. They require even less powerful magic than "Wrathful Sky".

For example, your army would be easily beaten by two to three Maste Smith with the "Lightning Rod" `guarded by 10 to 20 "Clockwork Horror". All doable even by the magically inversatile Ulm.

Another approach: a Golem with a "Snake Poison Bladder", "Axe of Sharpness", a decent armor & "Ring of Tame Lightning". It will work if the Golem is scripted to "Body Ethereal", "Luck" and attack rearmost.

Or a Bane Lord equipped similarly with "Snake Poison Bladder", "Axe of Sharpness", a "Ring of Regeneration" and a "Ring of Tame Lightning".

As long as you have items like "Ring of Tamed Lightning", your army is not hard to beat. The "Storm" + "Wrathful Sky" is a powerful combo but it's so well-known that most players are aware and prepared for it.

[ March 17, 2004, 03:48: Message edited by: ywl ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

the spell "storm" removes everyones flying ability except storm demons, wrathful skies works wonders on manikin or mandragoras i'd think, those storm demons have perfect accurancy due to aim +5 and the storm not affecting their aim. 5x10 shots of lightning + whatever spells the vanadrott casts.

this is just a simple unit with 5 relatively cheap units with the cost of just

3 water gems(jade armor isn't necessary)
3 fire gems(fire ring only needed if you fight fire)
36 air gems
35 bloodslaves
20 earth gems(one time cost)
3 earthg gems(jade armor)

con 6
alt 6
blood magic 4
alt 1
conj 1

380 + 180(one time cost) gold.

i could remove the winged helmet and remove 15 air gems(-25%, dwarf hammer in this case) and make him cast storm power first then wrathful skies just, wouldn't make all that difference.

that's not all that expensive for an army that can kill anything not specificly made to kill it and it doesn't need supplies cept air gems which it could get by wearing a flying armor(not counting caelum,ry'leh pesky summons, mech men/dragons/stormdemons and air mages with gems).

now this unit and his army is just a byproduct, i dont have to invest anything on my pretender or domain to create this unit whatsover(cept some way to get decent income), i may need a tiny bit of luck to get a random 4 in air and a dwarf with water as a random pick to make the jade armor but it isn't necessary, course i can only make Vanadrotts in my capital which is the only drawback.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In a storm, only Storm Demons, Pazuzu, the Queens of Elemental Air, Air Elementals, Caelum Storm Guard, and Storm Generals can fly.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your army is extremely vulnerable to anything that can reach it quickly, like heavy cavalry. Ermorian hordes are not a good test for this. Mandragoras would work also quite well, since they have enough hitpoints to survive a single lightning strike.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

I am having problems understanding your Posts, DLC, and it may be because I am tired.
I bet I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds to me like you are asking a "Warcraft III" question. I think much much more of the context must be explicated before the question can be answered. Armies just dont pop out and fight each other in DII, there is a whole context behind it -- it's not just the what, it's the where, when, for how long, and who's back at home.

Just consider one small element of one factor, "when": Sometimes one single mage can make all the difference. One casting of antimagic, or arrow fend, or summon storm, or heat from hell, or whatever else you would like to think of can turn an entire battle. So it depends on "when" (research-wise). Tons of other examples.

Sorry maybe it is a language barrier thing.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

Quote:

Originally posted by DLC: the spell "storm" removes everyones flying ability except storm demons,

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In a storm, only Storm Demons, Pazuzu, the Queens of Elemental Air, Air Elementals, Caelum Storm Guard, and Storm Generals can fly.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Spring Hawks can also fly in storm.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the analysis but it's all well-known.

That's why Caelum was always one of the favorite of Dom 1. And that's also why people thought Air was a must-have in that Last Version.

Better yet, in Dom 1, you can't even fire missle in Storm. Now, your precision only suffers a penalty around -5 - easily compensate by a "Wind Guide". So, even though he might suffer from a considerable loss, an player could possibly counter your army with a large number of longbows.

This combo is still regarded as powerful in Dom 2 but I haven't heard anybody complaining about being imbalance yet. Are you trying to suggest that?

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

Welp, some of us don't know all the combos from Dom1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Personally, I find threads like these useful, both in the presentation of the original combo, the reasoning behind it and the counters to it, though it might have been better suited as an addition to that "Expanding Tome of Knowledge" thread.

- Kel

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it's really not much more than the wrathful skies+storm combo that's already mentioned there.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

Quote:

Well, it's really not much more than the wrathful skies+storm combo that's already mentioned there.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, though I like the mention of counters and the analysis...so maybe it was best off in its own thread after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

i thought it was a bit too good, since i want a strategy to counter it with my favourite race abysia.

it's the staff of storms that i think is owerpowered, it ruins fire magic not to mention the already hard time you have when you want to cast strong fire spells like firestorm, heat from hell and that other one whatiscalled.

Wrathful skies is a bit too cheap in fatigue cost also only 3 air and 2 gems compared to 5 fire that fire requires for firestorm, not to mention the comparable low fatigue cost and research cost difference.


I wanted a to see what a good counter vs ermor & my own abysia(my favourite nation) strategies was and this was it, which apparently is wellknown http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

The Air-1 mage casting Thunder Ward with two gems (mentioned before by Graeme Dice) seems like an obvious and simple antidote. Then just send in the melee. No?

PvK

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

A couple seeking arrows & the end result is most likely a dead Vanadrott.

Cost of the counter: 8 gems, + 20 gold for the scout that walks in to rout the demons once the mage is dead.

[ March 17, 2004, 20:53: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

what if he was travelling with 5 scouts? that'd be 1/6th chance of hitting the right peep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

i dont like that air magic is a must http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

which check comes first anyways? if you cast seeking arrow does it arrive before the commander leaves the province or does it hit him before he leaves? since vanadrotts are invisible inside conquered provinces theyre kinda sneaky with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The arrow will strike first, as the magic phase occurs before the movement phase. Vanadrotts are invisible, and it appears that hiding or sneaking units are not targetted by spells, but in order to lead Storm Demons, he'd have to drop out of hide/sneak, and therefore would be a valid target.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not. As a counter, an Ice Devil (which Zen already suggested) requires no Air.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Magic spell should comes first.

It's a common trick to cast a "Call of the Wind", or other equivalent cheap attack spell, to enage your enemy before your main army before your main battle. The fake attack could knock out the gems on your enemy mages when they try to go through their script. So, when your main army attack, they won't be able to cast the "Wrathful Sky" or other similar combos.

There were complaints that the spell AI should be smart enough to distinguish the fake attack and the main battle. I don't know how well the spell AI is doing in the current Version.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do not move the goal Posts once the game has started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

The scouts would die the 1st time the Vanadrott casts Wrathful skies (either they are hiding or not, if they are hiding they are not valid targets for the arrows, if they are not they die to the batttlefield spell).

Even if they didn't, you have spent over 60 gems on your lone commader, asuming that your opponent has at least the same amounts avaliable to counter that's enough fuel for over 15 arrows.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not, replace Seeking arrow with Mind hunt for similar results with a bit more research (but still less than the one needed for your combo). There are other options, if maybe less optimal.

Re: Anyone who think they can win against this army?
 

Why not just send in an army of ~15 Demon Knights and a Demon-bred with the armor of lightning immunity? The demon knights with their high speed and high magic resistance should make it into melee on the second round relatively unscathed. I'm still just playing the demo, mind you, but my Abyssian armies of Demon Knights, Devils, and Summer Lions have so far proven pretty darn tough.