Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Asides from the sage, which is the best unit for researching magic in the game, what other Indies are of any use?

I've heard mention of indies several others times as a mean for some nations to expand during the early game, however, Its remained a mystery how you go about doing it, and why.

First of why use indies to expand, almost always your own troops are better, higher moral, attack, defense etc. and you can build your troops faster because of the fortress located in the provinence.

Secondly, how do you build the indies in sufficient quantities to make them of any use? There aren't any fortifications so production can be very slow 2 or 3 units per turn.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Most of them are useful, though not to everyone, and not always. Some of them offer some things that some nations don't have. Some are good because they are cheap or require few resources so they can be hurriedly hired and sent to absorb fireballs etc. Many of them are good enough that they're useful because of where they are, or because you don't have the gold or resources to only build your favorite units. Some of them are very good and useful to almost anyone.

If you want to build a lot of a particular one, build a fort with a good administration value at their location (then conquer all adjacent provinces if you want even more).

PvK

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Well, I am a self admitted noob but I think most of them are not particularly useful, except in rare circumstances (like needing an arrow catcher, *any* arrow catcher).

There are definitely more than sages, though. I almost always use indie scouts in the early game since I can only produce one commander per turn in my fort. Longbows and xbows are useful for most nations. Some others I only use with a few limited nations (for example, with BF Ulm, I use the cav commanders that have better leadership than my nationals http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Pretty much all standard indie infantry (I am not talking about special site indies like mages) is pretty useless, imo (possibly excepting the 10/10 LI with the javelins). Yes, if you find yourself without an arrow catcher or you want emergency PD recruiting, they are...well, I can't bring myself to actually say 'useful' but they are a lesser evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just one noob's opinion !

- Kel

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Amazons of various types can be quite useful, as can Druids, Lizard Shaman (well, kinda), Knights, and a number of others. They sometimes offer something you don't have (like a different form of magic or the strength/speed combo of a knight) or can be important reinforcements for armies too far from other sources to be bolstered with national troops.

The various Wizards, Illusionists, Witches, and so forth add a lot of variety to what you can field. Don't overlook them!!!

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Raptors might be useful, at least until storms are around -- they're cheap in both gold and resources IIRC and provide a slightly useful raiding force.
Amazons and druids provide magic which might not be readily found on national mages.
The Hidden Kingdom of Elludia and the Grey Tower are two magical sites to take a gander at. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Shamblers let you go underwater, and Tritons let you defend your new holdings more easily.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Ah, lizard shamans. They make decent communicants for nations without a cheaper one -- not Pythium or R'lyeh (well, Star Children can't be recruited inland, IIRC so even R'lyeh might find them useful).

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

I'd forgotten about the indie Raptors! I don't seem to see them that often, but I'm a happy camper when I do!

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some indy provinces allow the hiring of unusual mage types, which are always good to have, to expand the diversity of your national magics. Some nations, such as Mictlan, have craptacular regular troops, for which even Indy HI and HC can be an improvement. Other nations lack archers, etc.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do believe you've just answered your own question: Build a fortress.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

And don't forget moose riders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Seriously, in early to mid game a nice stealthy army can to wonders for your game.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Trying not to repeat what has already been said:

- Cavalry is nice if you are playing any nation without horsies.
- Heavy Infantry is nice if you are playing a low-armor nation (Mictlan comes to mind)
- Water nations will like just about any landlubber units when fighting on land
- Land nations will like underwater units if wanting to take over and keep some water provinces
- The ice cream vendors are nice if you are playing Abysia or Machaka.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

How much does indy units affect your fortification strategy?

I'm playing around with my R'yleh strategies in an SP game... in this game I have a couple of coastal land provinces that border my capital that can produce knights... is it worth building a 40 admin fortess on the knight province that will suck resources from my capital (that I really don't use anyway), as opposed to moving to a more "strategic" province?

In general, how do you balance indie units vs. strategy vs. resources available in selecting where to put a castle?

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Playing as R'leyh, I don't find knights to be all that useful. Given a choice of spending gold on them versus buying more illithids, I choose illithids. For frontline grunt troops I prefer summons (sea trolls are my favorite, and vine ogres are always handy) or shamblers. For wetwork, hordes of cheap tritons are useful.

Being a magically strong -- and aquatic -- nation whose best units cannot be recruited on land, R'leyh doesn't benefit as much from a fortification-indies strategy as other nations do. The squiddies have more (and typically better) options open to them. IMO.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, I agree with you. That is how I generally do it as well.

However, Shamblers and Lobos and Illithids are all magic troops... as are all the summons from the void gate.

And while all R'yleh commanders can lead magic troops(except the scout I guess)... there is a relatively small upper limit per commander... hybrids and slaves are ok to fill in the gaps... but you have to balance between mind numbing squidies, stomping shambler thralls, and cheapie mindless arrow catching lobos... but I'm currently exploring whether indie troops might provide more "bang for the buck" in the normal troop department.

My current battle strategy doesn't seem to dovetail very well with cavalry's fast movement... but they intriuge me because of the possibilities of flanking... which is impossible with any R'yleh unit, except a Vastness... but you might not even ever get one of those, and there are far better uses for that badboy than pseudo-cavalry.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

The shamblers I was referring to are the *indy* shamblers (non-magical) ...

EDIT: vine ogres are not considered magical troops, which is why I think they are so handy.

EDIT 2: as the squiddies, I tend to not bother much with "flanking". I just put up a wall of tough grunts to fend off the enemy and let the squids in my rear area have at the foe with mind bLasts and spells like enslave. Charon is more or less doing in his AAR what I do myself in my SP squid games.

[ March 17, 2004, 18:52: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Flanking is useful with the Squiddlies: I like a good center block of Lobos, pasted to the front wall: They're the arrow fodder and anvil: Then I have a pair of shambler wings on the side, on attack rear, slightly behind them: They close as a set of pincers and mow through the enemy center with their trample attacks, and the squiddly blocks fire their mindbLasts into the fray to sow terror, paralysis, and confusion.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Variety is often useful to have. If your enemies are working on a solution to your Ry'leh troops, then it will be harder for them to also have to deal with knights.

Back to independents in general... just because a troop might be slightly inferior to something else available, doesn't make it useless.

PvK

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Knights might be a rather useful addition to Rl'yeh, actually. The Illithids tend to have the most problem from enemy missile Users, I find, since enemy infantry tends to get mind-bLasted trying to cross the battlefield and enemy cavalry are easily stopped by a wall o' lobos. Knights can flank the enemy when coming from the side with Attack Rear orders and strike against the enemy spellcasters and archers, thus helping to deal with that potential menace.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

I use summoned flyers of various types to attack archers. IMO, R'leyh's gold is best spent on buying illithids. You can never have too many. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was my thought... the main problem I've found with it (so far) is that I generally play R'yleh with Sloth 3... and I've only found Knights on farmland provinces (ie low resources)... even with a 40 admin castle, whether you can get enough Knights together to do much (at 48? rescources a pop) is questionable.

Arryn was right to point to the Indie Shamblers... since they seem like a decent way to go for the non-magic unit replacement for the virtually worthless slaves... high gold low resource... perfect for R'yleh.

And they actually move slightly faster than Thralls do (11 vs. 10), so they could be mixed together to deal with that measley 11 morale they get... and act sorta-kinda like a flanking unit.

Vine Ogres, I'm not sure about... they can't be summoned underwater, and can only be summoned one at a time... and nature magic isn't exactly R'yleh strong suit.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vine Ogres can be summoned 2x with an Ivy Crown, 3x by Crown of the Ivy King, and 4x by an Ivy King himself. That's 4 ogres for just a single gem. A real bargain.

EDIT: PS - Knights cannot be bought underwater either, nor can most indies. The ogres are a suggestion for a tough, cheap unit that DOES NOT EAT, and is not a magic troop.

EDIT 2: Given that illithids are giant-sized, and expensive, you need to develop some nature strength anyway so that you can make supply-boost items (feed 'em) and also cast Gift of Health (keep 'em alive) ...

[ March 17, 2004, 22:04: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What about an Ivy King wearing a Crown of the Ivy King? Does an Ivy King have a head slot? Do the bonii stack?

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Isn't it a staff of the ivy king? Could be wrong. I just remember that an ivy crown combined with the staff gave like 3 vine ogre's at a time (for 1 gem a pretty good deal)

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alas, the King has no head. ("Off wit 'is 'ead!") So no Ogre-summoning abuse is possible ...

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Wait, it's the treelords staff. +one ogre or vineman (+2 nature magic , too of course).

[ March 17, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: Tricon ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are confusing "Treelord's Staff", which is a +1 Ogre item. If you give a Treelord's Staff and an Ivy King's Crown to a nature mage they can summon 4 Ogres, just as an Ivy King can. OTOH, it's cheaper to just summon an Ivy King.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Can you give an Ivy King a Treelord's staff, and abuse THAT? I haven't had the opportunity to play around with Vine Creatures much. None of the nations I've played so far were really strong in Nature magic.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see why not. That should boost the Ogres to 5/turn (I've not tried it yet, but it ought to work). I already have had plans to do just that in my AAR.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's odd...given that you're an Ermor fan, I was sure you would have tried out Carrion Woods by now...

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Weird. Vine Men/Ogre spawning is an exceptionally nice complement to the undead, as they don't eat either, can be generated in large numbers at small cost, and have different vulnerabilities than your default troops. (And one shared: Fire)

One of the cheapest damage absorbing walls available in combat. Even the Vine Men do well at this - Vine Ogre's just happen to be three times better at the same price, assuming you have the magic skills.

Of course, with Ermor, you really won't begin summoning them in great numbers until such time as you can pull in the great nature magic summoners to do the job for you, as Dusk Elders and Spectators have better things to do, but it can still prove an unsuspected (by the opposition) bonus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 17, 2004, 22:59: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see why not. That should boost the Ogres to 5/turn (I've not tried it yet, but it ought to work). I already have had plans to do just that in my AAR. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, as I think more on it, I probably won't do this. I can make a Staff for 30 gems (using a Dwarven Hammer), while I can summon another Ivy King for only 20 gems. It is *much* more cost effective for me to keep summoning more Ivy Kings as I accrue nature gems, than to try to boost the Ogre-summoning ability of the ones I have.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Many Indie units are quite useful :
* Amazons are great
* Shamans are very useful : you can use them for Communions with non Astral nations - just have to build some Matrixes
* Scouts !
* Longbowmen and Crossbowmen are better missile troops than most the "national" ones
* Even Hvy Inf (the 15-prot type) can be used by "non heavy" nations that have no "cheap" high-prot units (Mictlan, or Jotun that have very hvy troops, but only giants)

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vine Ogres can be summoned 2x with an Ivy Crown, 3x by Crown of the Ivy King, and 4x by an Ivy King himself. That's 4 ogres for just a single gem. A real bargain.

EDIT: PS - Knights cannot be bought underwater either, nor can most indies. The ogres are a suggestion for a tough, cheap unit that DOES NOT EAT, and is not a magic troop.

EDIT 2: Given that illithids are giant-sized, and expensive, you need to develop some nature strength anyway so that you can make supply-boost items (feed 'em) and also cast Gift of Health (keep 'em alive) ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I certainly work towards 5 nature with the squidies for Gift of Health... but it's relatively slow going. It's gonna take two empowerments plus a couple items (Thistle Mace + Moovine Bracelet?) to get there with a Starspawn who has a random in Nature.

To deftly tie that back into independent units topic... Druids(2N) or Jade Sorceresses(2N + 2?) could help a great deal in that regard...

I'm looking more for semi-quick ways... convievably cavalry could be brought in if your first above water fort is cleverly placed.

I have yet to make a pretender for R'yleh with any skill in nature... a Monlith would be a natural fit for that since he has a point in nature and astral already, but he's stuck underwater... at least early... and he doesn't have head or hands slots anyway (so only 1 vine ogre a turn). Same deal for the Void Lurker, but he's even worse since he's immobile and aquatic....

So what are you left with that can be a nature pretender for R'yleh at a reasonable price (I really like good scales)?

Arch Mage? He's aquatic... but at least has a bunch of slots...

Hmmm...

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like giving an ancient kraken nature magic, all those HP go great with regeneration.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alas, the Kraken is composed primarily of squishy bits, and has no real protection. He's gonna NEED that regeneration, and a LOT of it, as all those damnable Tritons and Ichytids go about poking his soft squishy parts with sharp things. Barkskin can help, but that's still an entire round of Tritons surrounding you and poking you.

[ March 18, 2004, 01:50: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No empowerments are required at all. You just need an Astral-4 mage (easy with R'leyh). The process is:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Ring of Sorcery, give it to a N1 Starspawn mage (who's now N2)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Thistle Mace (mage is now N3)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Moonvine Bracelet (mage is now N4)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Treelord's Staff (swap for Mace, mage is now N5 and can cast Gift of Health!)</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No empowerments are required at all. You just need an Astral-4 mage (easy with R'leyh). The process is:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Ring of Sorcery, give it to a N1 Starspawn mage (who's now N2)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Thistle Mace (mage is now N3)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Moonvine Bracelet (mage is now N4)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">forge Treelord's Staff (swap for Mace, mage is now N5 and can cast Gift of Health!)</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the tips... I never even thought about the Ring of Sorcery (duh!)...

I'm starting to play around with a Ghost King, who handles additional paths with relative ease (relative to other R'yleh pretenders anyway)... I'm diggin' him.

I was able to make him with 0 points to spare - which always gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahem. Firstly, it's R'lyeh. For some bizarre reason, everyone spells it wrong. I don't get it. It's really starting to bug me, like that "turrent" thing that was going around a few years back. I declared it a bannable offense on my site.

And yeah, I agree: The Ghost King is THE R'lyeh pretender of choice. He's stealthy, he's ethereal, he has zero encumberance....well, he lacks the flight and immortality options of the VQ, but he's also only a 90-point chassis. On the other hand, his paths are cheaper, which is handy for a nation that lacks as many loose points as Ermor. Not quite as potent in early expansion as the Vampire Queen, but you make up for it with the very handy Star Children assassins.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

I would think that one would pick the void lord if you want an early game SC with R'Lyeh. A ghost king doesn't have the hitpoints to be really effective.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on what effect he intends. AhhhFresh never mentioned an intent to use an SC chassis. As a matter of fact, reading his Posts one gets the impression he might be leaning towards a rainbow concept. But even if that were not the case, the stealth and ethereal tags, free ghosts in positive dom, plus being 35DP cheaper (AhhhFresh specifically mentioned he prefers spending points on scales) makes the ghost king a chassis that should not be so cavalierly dismissed.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AhhhFresh did not mention an intent to use the GK as an SC chassis, but *I* did. I believe Graeme might have been responding to my take on the matter, suggesting a Void Lord might make a better chassis. I stand by my decision, however, for reasons I'm not going to repeat again here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Besides, 125 points for the Void Lord chassis is robbery. That's more than a Vampire Queen, and Vampire Queens are far more nifty.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, technically, you didn't either, though you *imply* it if one reads between the lines of what you *actually* posted, and one knows that you have a liking for SCs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

EDIT: personally, it's not a good idea to read more into a post than what's actually said. It leads to ... complications.

[ March 18, 2004, 10:23: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

GK is an obvious good pretender choice whatever the nation in fact, it combines good durability, can pack a goos punch, has easy access to paths, plus he's stealthy *and* ethereal, and not that expensive. Who can ask for more ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd take Magic rather than Luck. It's a much more cost-effective use of DPs, IMO.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Luck +3 is much more important to take if you have to take a high Turmoil scale. If you're going to have more random events, you might as well make a lot of them good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I agree with Arryn - Magic +3 is a better choice for your situation all around.

[ March 18, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not giving up the World map, but if you think the percentage is unreasonable, go ahead and name your percentage when we start the next game, if you're signing up.

And please take your turn, we're all waiting for you.

[ March 18, 2004, 20:26: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you need to play a lot of shorter games with reasonable magic site percentages, instead of monstrously silly games with massive gem incomes. A VQ is extremely vulnerable anywhere past the very initial game since she's undead and has low hitpoints. Besides, neither Atlantis nor R'lyeh have access to the VQ.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If one is talking about using their pretender to speed up initial expansion, then they are almost certainly talking about using it as a SC. There are very few spellcasting pretenders that can conquer independent 6 provinces solo within the first 10 turns.

Re: Uses of Indie Soldiers?
 

Yeah, sorry about the R'lyeh spelling thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And all this confusion related to my intentions...

Here is what I'm testing right now:

R'lyeh Pretender: Ghost King
Magic: Astral 5
Death 3
Nature 4
Scales: Order +3
Sloth -3
Luck +3
Dominion: 6
Fortress: Kelp Fortress (0 point economy model)

Currently, I miss the Magic +2/+3 I have been using for them... I have been using Star Children more and more as assasins vs. Indies (as Norfleet mentioned) instead of as researchers... so I'm not sure how much that combo will retard my research.

I wasn't going to use the GK as an SC in the early goings... just as mind burning artillery support, then as a searcher. But maybe I'll eplore that option. He certainly has a nice "cause fear" effect...

I figured he'd be a decent SC in the late game with good items, though...

But mainy I was concerned with summonings in the semi-early stages, to keep land expansion from stalling while someone slubs back underwater to pick up some more meat shields...