Air 9 bless: useless?
 

Maybe I'm missing something, but 75% shock resistance seems awfully weak compared to flaming weapons, quickness, regeneration or even twist fate. I suppose it might be useful if you're making heavy use of lightning spells, but even then, you're still going to hurt your own units a bit, and it's obviously limited by the research needed, whereas the other level 9 bless effects are useful immediately.
Additionally, there's no really cheap option for getting air 9 either, like the oracle or statue for astral 9.
To cap it all, there aren't even any spells which require air 9; the highest requirement for an air spell is 7 for fata morgana.

The standard air shield effect is decent enough, but it's hardly strong enough to justify such a weak level 9 blessing, is it?

How could the air 9 blessing be improved? There are lots of potential options; a precision bonus, storm immunity, mirror image etc. Mistform or flight would be a bit much, I think.

Personally, I'd go for total immunity to lightning and a free cast of charge body. This is not dreadfully overpowered, but it's useful from the start, and it's different from the other bless effects. Mirror image would be too similar to twist fate, and the Van and Tuatha have glamour already.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

Air 9 blessing makes for a truly AWESOME combination used together with Wrathful skies - and is the best protection against an enemy using that spell if you have many sacred troops.

Additionally, it is a very, very, nice combination if you are fighting air-heavy nations like Caelum or Vanaheim.

It may not be as useful in as many situations as the fire and water blessings, but that certainly does not mean that it is weak.

And that is discounting the exceedingly strong power of the L4 blessing at high levels of air magic. For instance I love air 8-10 for Marignon (a Virtue is best for this) since it will allow my crossbows to fire straight into the same enemy formation my Knights of the Chalice are engaging in melee - and I don't need my Virtue along to cast "Arrow Fend" to get the effect, any priest will do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A high level of air magic useles?? I think not.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Charge body combined with total immunity would be dreadfully overpowered. Every enemy hitting one of your sacred units (for the first time) would die. Imagine attacking an army of knights with flagellants. 30 flagellants would beat 40 or 50 knights. Most of these knights would die.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suppose I'm wedded to the idea of using bless effects as a booster to early game power, and I don't deny that sounds like a powerful combination. But the pain in paying for a bless effect that doesn't have as much immediate power as some of the others and then researching a level six spell doesn't sound that great.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you could always use indy archers without piercing bows, and take fire 9 instead to deal with heavy foes. Although if the air shield works on flaming arrows (which it probably does) then that method does sound interesting. But is it really 'exceedingly' strong?

I suppose my problem is that the air blessings require subtlety, whereas most of the other blessings are in-your-face badassness.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're right, of course. I'll forget about that idea.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For nations with sacred heavy troops, yes. Until the enemy starts putting up "arrow fend", that is. The ability to use the nastiest and most damaging archers/crossbowmen against all enemies on the battlefield without killing off your own heavy troops is a very, very, strong combination. And, of course, it also stops the most common counter to the heavy troops as it prevents your opponent from shooting them as well.

The latter is not so much an issue against the AI as against human players, I must admit, as the AI never uses enough archers/crossbowmen.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds likely. I will freely admit that I find the Fire-9 blessing the easiest to apply to a multitude of situations (so long as I have sacred troops able to survive for more than a round in combat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ). Water-9 is also easy to like, especially for sacred-mage nations but everybody can use the effect. Earth-9 is really only for specialists (T'ien C'hi are probably the ones that benefit the most), and Air-9 is good for those who either fear other peoples archers, their own archers, other peoples air magic, or their own air magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Death-9 is for the dead or the living who want to stick around (and have undead leadership). Nature-9 is for those without sacred mages and whose sacred troops are better off dead than alive [hence the Death-9/Nature-9 combination that is occasionally seen], Astral-9 is for those who really fear being mind dueled and thinks everybody sacred ought to have a second chance - once, and Blood-9 is the most useless blessing of them all (so, the unit that killed you got cursed - who cares?)

With such a list I am sure you will agree that air-9 is far from useless http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

I think Blood 9 is arguably useful for Marignon Diabolic Faith in multiplayer.

dirt cheap auto-curses act as a deterrent, somewhat like miasma.

as well, the +4 str would quite help their dual attack...

[ March 19, 2004, 21:52: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

[ March 19, 2004, 21:47: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that you need to lose a troop for it to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Still, I guess you might be right. While taking down a Knight of the Chalice is surely worth a curse, it might not feel so worthwhile with the flagellants. On the other hand, flagellants benefit much more from a high air or fire blessing than blood. The first allows them to avoid being mown down by archers, the second deals much more damage than the blood +4 strength bonus ever did.

At the end of the day, I think that, as your opponent, I would prefer my troops to end up cursed after defeating yours rather than dead after failing to do so because you used a stronger combat blessing.

Having my own troops cursed (yet victorious), while bad, is not very bad. The only troops I hate having cursed are my important commanders, and an enemy does not need blood-9 in MP to curse those, he can usually make do with totem shields.

That said, I have not tried actually facing a blood-9 Marignon blessing in MP. Who knows, the reality of it might change my perception. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 19, 2004, 22:05: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

Blood 9 Blessing is what I'd like to call a joke. It's not even a guarenteed 'curse' but has a chance of cursing.

Even with +4 Strength a Blood 9 has no attraction outside of what you would be casting with the Blood (I don't see many low level Blood+ spells so only useful if you plan on getting Blood 8-9, which is quite a plan). Being able to rustle up some blood slaves is nice; but hardly worth the point cost of getting 9 Blood.

A much more attractive blessing would be one that includes a HP bonus. This I could see would have potential for use and abuse (which is the point of the 9 Blessings, right?)

[ March 19, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

well, I certainly wouldn't want to argue that it is any good, really.

I know I never take it, and I like bless effects.
(Blood 4 is a nice addition sometimes, though. works well w/ W9 battle vestals or serpent dancers).

[ March 19, 2004, 22:19: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

I mentioned earlier that I thought "Unholy Thirst" would be a good Blood blessing, giving blessed units a life-draining "Bite" attack. But "Hemorrhagic Butchery", the art of striking an opponent to cause profuse bleeding, would be fun, too. It would be something like, "Any opponent wounded by a blood-9 blessed unit has a 25% chance of being affected by 'bleed', meaning they lose 1HP per combat turn until death."

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

But Air magic in general is certainly worthwhile - you get great direct damage spells like orb lightning as well as the precision to ensure they hit what you want them to hit. i.e. the 'indirect' effect of the school (improved precision) has a nice synergy with many of the spells of the school.

So it makes some sense that the blessing effect of the school is less powerful than those of some other shools. You don't want one school to have so many advantages as to overpower any other school, and balancing these sorts of issues is what the dynamic duo seem to do best.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that's a supercombatant killer, though, as I've experienced to my horror...

but Blood does most definitely need a new level 9 blessing. Why not blood vengeance -2 or some such? (actually, I'm not quite sure how blood vengeance works, or what would be an appropriately balanced modifier).

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

Blood vengeance once was the 9-blood-blessing, but it was removed due to severe balance issues.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

so, got any better suggestions...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

As long as the additional Life Drain attack had a certain # of penalties to Att/Damage then Life Drain would be fine.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

I'm with Gavin. Blessings don't have to be balanced in parallel, and trying to do so would make things more bland. High blood magic has its own rewards besides the level-9 bless effect. For example, Blood spells tend to require a ton of fatigue, so dividing it down with a high level (and making the effects harder to resist too) makes the pretender potentially very wicked on the battlefield.

Though, here's an idea - what if it were a chance that the killer sometimes got horror marked instead of cursed? This would fit blood magic, and be somewhat more ominous.

PvK

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

Well, while the suggestions are good, may I suggest that perhaps a better way to 'fix' the Blood-9 blessing might be to enhance the power of Curses? Not directly, perhaps, but indirectly.

Now, I confess that I only have the demo, and I'm not very cognizant of all of the spells in the game, but one night after reading about Undead Tug-of-Wars, I was in bed thinking of a spell that did similar things to Cursed units. Now, you could either make it a battle spell which allowed you to take control of Cursed units, or a Ritual that forced Cursed units in a Province to attack it.

Anyway, does this sound like an idea? If you really want to improve the Blood curse, you could put these spells in the Blood path. Oh, and I apologize profusely in advance if this spell or one like it already exists... :|

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As curses, like horror marks, are permanent, they are already bad enough - when they hit important units. The ease with which you can curse target important units (suicide attacks by commanders with Totem Shields, casting Baleful Star at target provinces) argues against making curses worse.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Horror attacks are rare even in magic 3 dominion, so I'd say Curse is nastier. A horror mark isn't a big deal most of the time.

Maybe a good new Blood 9 blessing would be a chance (with an MR save) to receive a random affliction when attacking/hitting the blessed unit?

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

ehh, why not the obvious +4 hit points for blood9?

makes it attractive then both for cheap bless units and expensive, w/out being unbalanced like blood vengeance, and, i'm guessing, life drain - the problem w/ both I'd think would be how they become just too powerful in an SC or mini-SC chassis.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like it, but that might be obvious. I also like the curse, although it is more fun than useful.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is exactly what I thought was going to happen the first time I ever did blessing effects. Every other stat is covered but Precision, HP, and Encumberance. This would be especially useful for nations like Abyssia, Tien Chi.

Edit: Actually +4 would probably be more appropriate (Like the Earth9 Blessing). +5 HP is alot, I would rather have it be a % so that it can affect both high and low hp's to a decent degree. What the % should be has to be defined as what is reasonable. Testing Flags and Niefel Jarls with %'s to see if point per ability are worth it.

[ March 21, 2004, 01:08: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Air9 giving charged body with no lightning resistance would be fun though, flaggelants turning into air-shielded suicide-bombs. This is not a good idea, but would be fun. Everyone dies but flaggelants are cheaper http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Horror marks are way more powerful than curses, I would think, so this would have to be a rare event. But I agree that it fits the overall feel of blood magic<->Horrors & horror marks.

Or maybe you could make blood slaves into sacred units. So enemy troops who massacre your blood slaves in battle get cursed in the process.

Not that I find blood magic underpowered in single player games, either.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

Perhaps Air 9 blessing could give +5 in precision (like Aim Spell). It wouldn't do much for melee units but sacred mages would become quite deadly.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...And non-sacred. Time to mass-produce Shirts of the Battle Saint. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Am I the only one who really likes the 75% Shock Resistance that Air 9 currently gives and finds it a good bonus?

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

+4 precision would be really nice for nations with sacred mages. It might let the abysian mages hit the something. Maybe good for pythium too but they mostly throw soul slay and other 100 prec spells dont they?

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

They have Air Magic picks which gives them +1 Prec per path. So they don't need it much (They use Orb Lighting often, as well). Nations without access to Nature/Air would be the ones who would benefit from it most with that aspect, and since there are no sacred ranged units (beyond javalins) it wouldn't have a dramatic impact on that.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Horror attacks are rare even in magic 3 dominion, so I'd say Curse is nastier. A horror mark isn't a big deal most of the time.
... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes random horror attacks seem quite rare. My thinking was that Horror marks would be interesting and useful because Blood also gives the ability to call and send horrors, which can be much more effective if there are horror-marked targets. So if the enemy kills some of your sacred units, the horror marks would give you a way to use horror spells more effectively to get back at them.

PvK

[ March 21, 2004, 20:38: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen pointed out something that would really make horror mark more potent is if the horrors got worse every time they attacked. Say if a unit survives the attack be a lesser horror, you get a horror, then a King of the World, then a doom horror, then two of them, etc.

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes random horror attacks seem quite rare. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was thinking more of exploiting horror marks combined with "Send Horror" spells, or the Ashen Angel assassination spell - called 'Manifestation', I think. I've never yet tried exploiting this, even in single player games, but I assumed that this was the point of Horror marks?

Re: Air 9 bless: useless?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That all depends on how many horror-marked units you have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Random Horror attacks are supposed (I think) to happen more in magical domains, but they happened quite frequently in a recent MP game, despite my realm having drain 3. Of course, that may have something to do with playing default Ulm the blood way, and having an ever increasing number of horror-marked scouts with soul contracts, some of which were harvested by Horrors every few turns. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif