Suggestion for a new nation
 

Howz about a nation of peoples based loosely on a Persian/Arabic/Byzantinian nation (I know this is totally a-historical) with relations to their bedouin fellows similar to those of Jotun/Vaetti and Van/human? Bedouins generally have good morale but require more money to conscript.


- Prefers Heat +1
- All units have wasteland survival. All bedouins are stealthy, and all have improved stealth in desert provinces.
- Standard units: Arabian Chargers (mounted light cavalry), Desert Swordsmen (poorly armored scimitar wielders, pillage bonus, berserker +0), Arabian Knights (expensive heavy cav), Bedouin Warriors (stealthy light units, similar to Mictlan or Machaka warriors, but with slightly better morale and higher cost), Bedouin Cavalry (stealthy but expensive light cav), Light Spearmen, Infantry
- Sacred Unit: Whirling Dervish: Berserker +2, lightly armored scimitar wielder -- when berserk, will attack entire square (similar to Harvest Blade effect but WITHOUT "never misses" bonus)
- Mages: Astrologer (SS??), Sage (?, improved research), Loremaster (F??, improved research), Bedouin Visionary (FAS? Priest 2)
- Commanders I: Vizier (Priest 2, stealthy, spy), Arch Vizier (Priest 3, stealthy)
- Commanders II: Mounted Arabian Knight, Clan Leader (Swordsman with decent leadership and pillage bonus), Bedouin Leader (Stealthy, decent command)
- Special Scout: a special desert assassin, a bedouin Reader of the Sand, who, when in deserts, gets improved information and will actually get information on where enemy armies have headed and where they are going to. This commander gets the special command "Track Enemy"; when activated, it will automatically follow (move to the appropriate province) a random enemy commander who is in or who enters that province.
- Anyone care to see a Courtesan? This would be a stealthy 0-leadership commander with the "seduce commander" action; however, she is no powerfully armed succubus, but rather simply a (very inticing) lightly clad woman armed only with a poison dagger, so if the seduction fails and battle ensues, she can probably only succeed in surviving a battle with a cheapo priest
- Special National Summons: Sacred Unit: Djinn Warrior: etheral moustached swordwielder, can go berserk +0, Lesser Fear, requires FA, cost 5 fire.

Well I dont know if this is generally balanced, I originally pictured them with some Earth magic too but that seemed overpowered. Of course more care would have to be given to the exact weapons, armor, and pricing.
Well does anybody else like the idea? I have these visions in my head of swirling sands, dark moustached faces, knives glinting in the moonlight, proud chieftains, wise men staring at the stars, hunched figures reading signs in the dunes, Ottomanian infantry, and seductive beautiful women. Oh sorry getting carried away, just got back from a conference on the Kurdish revivalist Said Nursi and have been reading "1001 Nights".

Wondering: Must a new modded nation actually *replace* an existing nation (instead of: being an addition to it)? That is, could a nation such as this or Ashikaga be *in addition* to, say, Machaka or Tien Chi?

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

If theme modding ever comes available, you might be able to add this *** a theme, otherways I don't believe it is or never will be possible to add nations.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

You can replace nations but currently you cannot add to them. I don't know if that will ever be possible since it would require UI work and the devs have said they're not too fond of UI work.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

OK thanks.

Um... so what do you think of the theme?

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

It would be a good variation for Machaka methinks. Raise the heatscale to +2, since this reflects the desert heat.

I'm not sure the whirling dervish is a good choice for sacred unit. Wrong culture perhaps? But then again I know so very little about arabian myths and legends.

Same thing with Viziers. Weren't they part of the caliphate administration? Perhaps just a name change is all that is needed?

I don't think a Reader of the Sands ability would be possible in Dominions 2. But as a plain cheap assassin in would be great.

Courtesan sounds a bit... Errh... Hard on the suspension of disbelief? Surely it takes more than a pretty face to turn highranking commanders against their former allies? Then again it might be my annoyance for the "seduce" ability talking. I liked it even less in Age of Wonders. Perhaps give this unit both spying and assassination abilities instead?

Just one summoned unit? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif There a tons of cool mythical creatures to be found in this setting.

The nation seems to be a cross between Pangea and Machaka. It should work very well, since the concept is well balanced. A suprising lack of archers though.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

A Middle Eastern style nation would be good. However, I'd shy away from using real-world terms like 'Arabian cavalry' or 'Bedouin Warriors'. It'd be like Man having Welsh longbowmen, or Marginon having a Spanish inquisition.

I'm not sure stealthyness is such a good idea from a thematic POV. The other stealthy nations have magical help, how are a bunch of ordinary humans able to be stealthy? I suppose the stealth is there to represent the impressive mobility of medieval Arabic armies, although I'd represent that by making them a cavalry heavy nation, with diverse all-cav armies a decent possibility. And I'd give their mages a built-in flying carpet for even greater mobility.

Really good assassins are a must for this nation as well, although I don't really see courtesans as thematic, not to mention the silliness of her seducing minotaurs, C'tissians, Abysians, amazons and eunuchs.

Heat +1 seems fine to me. IMO, Machaka should have heat +1 as well, just because there is such a difference between living in a hot land, and living in a volcano.

I'd go for fire and air as their national magics. It's not 'taken' and it fits the nation quite nicely. And you've got efreet (fire) and djinn (air) in the mythology already.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Magic carpets are wonderful flavour. As is Djinn. Unfortunately, there already is a Djinn in the game: check the Lamp. Of course, the Lamp is Unique. IIRC right the Djinn has power in Air, Fire and Astral. You could always mod him too to rename him as as something else...

I think some kind of mystical seducer could be a heroine for this nation. If you want to give her some special ability, Flying and Awe seem thematic.
BTW, she wouldn't be able to seduce C'tissians, amazons or eunuchs, because Succubus can't either. I'm not sure about minotaurs or abysians, though...

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dervishes would be sacred, as they were mystical Sufi dancers. It was considered the pinnacle of holiness at the time, if I recall correctly, to be a great Sufi dancer.

Djinni and Ifreeti would also be sacred in such a culture, by the way. They made sacrifices to the Djinni/Ifreeti similarly to the way the Japanese sacrificed to local spirits for safe travel, good weather, etc.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. If anything, this should be a rather summon-heavy theme in my opinion, with summons backing up the disproportionately large amount of cavalry.

I also agree with Sandman's suggestion about Fire and Air being the main magic paths for such a nation.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She'd have trouble seducing minotaurs, since they are size 3, and Eunuchs can never be seduced.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

tinkthank - I like the idea. A vaguely Arabian nation would be a lot of fun, and there's a ton of stuff to draw from.

I love the idea of dervishes, and of lots of summons. I think the main troops should be horse or camel riders (or both) with light armour, but high defense and high attack rating. I like the idea of stealthy troops - since they aren't big on heavy armours they can move around more quietly and blend in more easily.

Sounds very cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Here are my mage suggestions:

Fakir: 2 air, rides a magic carpet, does not eat.

Magi: 2 fire, 1 air.

The fakir's lack of eating is just a bit of flavor, seeing as how they're able to go without food for long periods of time, and do other feats. Whether his magic carpet can carry other units is an open question.

The magi is a more conventional mage with an middle-eastern sounding name. Depending on the power of the nation, a more poweful archmagi with the usual random pick might be needed as well.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Giving seduction abilities to cheap units might not be such a good idea...plus, a succubus is a demon and has wings, hence she/it can actually carry a commander (perhaps via teleportation of some sort) to your stronghold. However, here we would have a foot unit marching, perhaps, across the entire map with a seduced enemy commander in tow in just one turn/month.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

This nation sounds fun and i agree that there is a great deal of mythology and legend from the Middle East to be drawn upon.

I'm not too certain of the courtesan unit; maybe better would be some kind of 'Harem' unit. Some names of ranks of Ottoman harem women are the "Kadin", whom had born royal children, and the "Odalesques", whom were the more common type.

Harem girls should act as some kind of support unit similar but not the same as the Communicant. They should be something you would want to give several of to every important commander (part of this nation's theme). I'm not certain what they should buff or affect. Maybe +willpower, maybe act as invigoration/take away fatigue.

You could have the harem act act as a kind of 'stable' of diverse cultural origin by giving each girl a small random 'gift' or slightly different attributes (from her native race/disposition), so building a good Harem would be an important part of the theme (something many rulers doted on in RL). Or maybe they could arive as 'presents' from foreign rules, each bearing a small number of gems from their native lands.

And almost forgot; they should be expensive to maintain. Maybe use 4 or 5 supplies, maybe have double maintenance costs, maybe have some province wide effect. Oh, and another idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , is that instead of buying them or having them arive randomly, you could capture them like slaves, although they should be pretty hard to find and rare if they act as a complementary unit - although personally id prefer to purchase them as it seems less libidinous.

Also mirages are often an important element of Arabian legends and environment. Illusion/mirage should be incorperated in some way.

This sounds like it could be fun to play.

[ March 22, 2004, 06:56: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Thanks so much for all of these excellent replies.

I know the mish-mash I suggested is not reflecting any "real" historical nation, and it is a conglomeration from a bunch of things.

I did want an Astrologer type in there, and I wanted a Sage type in there too, to encompass the Ibn Rushd and Ibn Khaldoun types etc; I think they should get a capitol-only Sage-type and Astral-user.
Otherwise, Air and Fire: yes. You are right.
Fakir: love it.

As to the Courtesan: d'accord. (And of course I never pictured her being able to seduce undead, Minoutaurs, or whatnot; size 2 humans only. She would and should and must be inferior to the succubus in every way.)

I am kind of attached to the idea of a Dhervish, so would hate to part with that. Lots of summons, sure, but I do want to keep it balanced.
I wanted to have camel riders, but figured: just call them cavalry.
I also pictured a bunch of swarthy scimtar wielders, but maybe that is not so exciting.

Unfortunately, I know too little about modding to be able to do this on my own .... anyone have time to help me over the next few weeks/months?

Well thanks so much for your feedback

PS. Am currently reading "1001 Nights" (the original in an ancient but apparently quite accurate German translation) with my wife -- that itself is a mishmash of Arabic, Persian, and Byzantinian culture. It is great!

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Actually I've been working on an "Arabian Nights" mod for Arcoscephale since at least 2 months. It's nearly complete except for the sprites (I'm still struggling a lot with the Gimp).

Most of the ideas in this thread are here, including mages on flying carpets, houris (courtesans), djinni and efreeti. I've also added a bit of Ottoman culture with Mamluks and Janissaries. And, Last but not least, Alamut's feared haschichin.

Besides Gimp, my main problem is I have 9 different heroes and can't decide which ones to keep for the final release. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Ooh!
And bedouin types?

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Sort of. Camel archers and sacred camel lancers. Camels are size 4 and have 2 riders (and I swear I made them before moose were introduced) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Why two riders for the camels? this seems very odd to me.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Forgive me, but I have to ask - where's the balance in this new nation? Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a Persian/Arab influenced nation in the game, but what's described in this thread sounds like it has no weaknesses and several strengths.

-Jeff

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't want them to be just another cavalry type with new sprites. And historically the Midianite and Nabatean Arab armies used 2-bowmen camels

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire as one of the nation's primary magic paths isn't enough of a weakness for you?

I don't see it as having any particularly impressive strengths. Nothing with heavy armor, no crossbows or longbows, primary magic path is weak, average at best priests. Cavalry are always expensive and only sometimes worth it. The seducing unit might be good, but probably not as good as a well equipped assassin - a more limited choice of targets and probably a lower success rate. (Although it would be interesting if, when a courtesan fails to seduce someone and has to fight them instead, the target doesn't get any of his armor during the fight... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

It might be fun to play, but I wouldn't expect it to be a serious contender against the likes of Arcoscephale, Pythium, Caelum or Jotunheim.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Jaif has a point about balance.

Flying mages, excellent assassins, effective cavalry, powerful summons, stealthy troops, sacred dervishes. All pretty good.

One obvious place to make up the balance points would be with weak priests. Spread the faith through conquest, rather than preaching. Seems in keeping with the theme.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

It would be hard to say if it's balanced or not without the particulars. Maybe each Djinn costs 30 Air and are barely reasonable for that cast. Maybe the Fire and Air of the mages is minute. Maybe the cavalry are expensive and don't fight well.

I'd wait to pass judgement on balance until you can see what is there, then you can go from there.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

It sounds very interesting to me, especially in light of the myth-laden flavor inherent in the idea. It should fit in marvelously with the already existing nations (which isn't a necessity, but it always nice) and have something unique to offer.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Well when I originally posted the suggestion, I pictured the "Djinn Warrior" as a fighter/mage hybrid, and not *NEARLY* as powerful as, for example, Al Khazim. That would be overpowered.
Otherwise, I dont see this as being overpowered, at least without TOO much national summons.
Weaknesses would include:
- low armor
- no non-random earth, death, blood, nature, water.
- no heavy-hitting units (scimtar wielders and dervishes are the closest that come to it)

Should things still be too powerful, one could always nerf this or that or crank up the prices of some units.

Wouldnt go camel archers, and certainly not with two archers per camel -- sounds like moose riders to me, which I really neither understand nor like either. (A size 4 moose? Please. And two riders? Good luck hitting the side of a barn.)

In general, as someone pointed out, it sounds a lot like Pangaia (which is generally not considered overpowered) or a cross between them and Van and Machaka.

I still like the mish-mash idea, where the capital city (I picture a cross between Alexandria and Constantinople) is one in which scholars and sages gather and civilization has its peak, although the dark temples still harbor the mystic exstatic cults of the dervishes,
and the twilight culture of the sand dwellers is found on the outskirts.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

I probably could have phrased my question better, but my personal philosophy when designing things like this (nations in strategy games) is to a) think of the general theme), b) detail their cool stuff, and c) detail their weaknesses. With those three elements of the design fully stated, it makes it easier to flesh out the details.

I just wanted to incorporate weaknesses into the discussion, and I've seen a number of good replies.

-Jeff

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I can only speak on behalf of my own "1001 Nights" mod, but it has weaknesses, and is much less powerful than the base Arco it's built on.

The main weakness is the lack of reliable infantry. The main line infantry is basically Cardaces, the best infantry type is the Janissary bowman who is very close to the base T'ien Ch'i Imperial Archer, with less protection (8), a strat move of 2 and a 2-handed scimitar (a toned-down greatsword). All that for 16 gold apiece. There's a 3rd infantry type, the 'Harem guards', who are giant eunuchs (giant here only means they have 13 hp instead of the regular 10 - think of Hollywood peplums), armed with the same great scimitars but even worse protection than the Janissaries. That's all for infantry as there are no dervishes in my mod.

Colorful, but not really earth-shattering infantry IMO. Its only saving grace is it's resource-cheap.

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can succubi seduce undead or minotaurs????? To my knowledge they can't even seduce eunuchs...

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

KO wrote:
"Size 4 beings can not be seduced. Neither can lifeless beings, undeads, females, eunuchs, animals nor Heart Companions."

Note that it doesn't succeed very often. Resisted by both Magic Resistance and Morale, IIRC. The succubus then fights and usually has little problem. A non-demonic seductress would probably not make a good assassin, so that would be a major difference in their effectiveness compared to a succubus.

The teleportation home is a stretch though - perhaps a reason then to make them somehow require gems, or be expensive, to account for the magic required to get them home.

PvK

Re: Suggestion for a new nation
 

Yes, Courtesans should be vastly inferior to succubi as combatants but decent seductresses to male humans. And they bring the commanders "home" not by flying (dont forget: the Succubus seduces non-flying creatures as well, and no commander in the game grants other commanders flying abilities; and a succubus can bring commanders back from over 50 provinces away, and noone flies that fast) but rather under that commander's own power. The fact that they could move 15 squares per turn or whatever just needs to be fictionalized away.

Side note: The term "Vizier" I used because the translation of 1001 Nights I have translates the title of Scheherezad's father as "Wesir", which is pretty much a 1-to-1 rendering of the word in German. Dont know what it was in the original.