Tien Chi Default
 

I'm confused about the default Version of Tien Chi. My confusion was instigated by my recent discovery that there is a Celestial Gardener as a national summoning spell.
Admittedly, I had not played the default Version much -- but still it took me over a month to even recognize that this spell *existed*. I don't want to fault the documentation here, but rather the concept:
- why make a national summons which quite conceivably could *never* be used in the course of an entire game? Yes, it took me *that* long to get a CM with a random earth pick. Had I not chosen to cast a ritual spell with that mage, and had I been even less attentive than normal, I might not even have noticed that spell existing.
Fine, now I know how it works. Just like the other celestial summoning spell, the dual-air 1 astral. This is also a spell which requires great luck to even be able to cast. Either you must get lucky to use it (random air pick) or you need to design a god around casting these spells (which, by the way, is not encouraged by the misleading (well: downright false) "flavor text", in which the summons are described as being "only" summonable by the CMs, which is not the case). That seems really very bizarre.

If it is purely a question of balance, why not make them available to celestial masters and more expensive? (*IF* it is a question of balance.) Or make them weaker. Otherwise, I can't see why the horse servants should require 2 air, nor why the gardeners should require a path that the national mages rarely get.

My plea for 2.10: Rehaul the celestial summoning to make it available to all CMs.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

>Either you must get lucky to use it (random air pick) or you need to design a god around casting these spells (which, by the way, is not encouraged by the misleading (well: downright false) "flavor text", in which the summons are described as being "only" summonable by the CMs, which is not the case). That seems really very bizarre.

Actually it's more of a "imperative text" than a "flavor text". It does not fit to have other mages summon them. If you read the desctription you might get a feel for what is right and stop using other mages to summon the servants http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

>If it is purely a question of balance, why not make them available to celestial masters and more expensive? (*IF* it is a question of balance.) Or make them weaker. Otherwise, I can't see why the horse servants should require 2 air, nor why the gardeners should require a path that the national mages rarely get.

It is a special thing and a flavor thing. Gardeners and servants poke the earth in the heavenly gardens. Celestial Soldiers defend the heavenly abodes in the clouds.

The special thing is almost a balance thing but not entirely so. Celestial masters are rarely into earth (a flavor thing). We didn''t want to give them earth, but we wanted the servants to be earth based. The Soldiers are very powerful and should not be easier to summon. Thus the current solution. It also fits that you only summon one gardener and that you rarely build armies around them. Unfortunately (as I'm very fond of them) they become rare.

There should not be any problems with the soldiers as they cost more. When you get the air pick you might not be able to cast the spell anyway.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

Thanks for the very prompt and thorough reply. You make your position very clear -- merci!

I happen not to share your opinion, but that is neither here nor there. What I like about S&A is that the celestial summons are available to the CMs, even if you wont always cast for them (because of gem cost, because you only get 1, etc.) It is just a shame that you cant really use your national summons unless you get lucky, and because of the somewhat slim documentation on the nations, you might not even know that gardeners exist.

Ah well thanks anyhow.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

You do not need to get lucky to use the Celestial Soldiers - you just need to empower any Celestial Master to air 2 or (preferably) to construct a Winged Helmet or a Bag of Wind, which requires construction 4.

Hardly onerous.

It does mean that the use of Celestial Soldiers is more of a mid- and end- game tactic than an early-game tactic, but that is quite fine with me.

If you get lucky with magic sites (and T'ien C'hi is one of the best site-searching nations in the game), you can build entire armies around Celestial Soldiers in the mid-game. Cost-wise, there are few better summons in the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

S&A is supposed to be more magical. The demons reflect this.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

Noob question: what line are these spells located in? Actually, more broadly is there a reference somewhere for all national spells? Or even better, a blow-by-blow description of all the nations so I don't have to start a new game with each new nation/theme to figure them out?

-Jeff

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I just finished up a single player game with Ulm, and T'ien C'hi was the Last guy I took out. In each of my single player games, T'ien C'hi really went nowhere (only expanded to about 3 or 4 provinces, but was able to field these huge armies of forces, like Celestial Soldiers, that I had no idea how to crack. Ulm heavy infantry does nothing to them, and they really don't seem to have any weaknesses based on their stats.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

I got overrun by an AI playing Tien'Chi once. I was Arcoscephale with a Natajara combat pretender, and they had a Ghost King with a bunch of celestial summons. Stormed right through my home province pretty early on.

Jaif, there are national spells listed at the end of the manual, but these Tien'Chi ones don't seem to be there. There are also national spells which come pre-researched for some nations, but which other nations can eventually research - I don't know if those are documented anywhere, and they can be easy not to notice that you've got them automatically and not as a result of your research.

PvK

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

Speaking of tien Chi, I'm on turn 18 of a multiplayer game with luck +3 and I have gotten ZERO heros.

Is this a bug, or am I just insanely unlucky?


Rabe the Coward Magnet

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

Another question about Tien Chi: does anybody else feel that Spring & Autumn theme is actually stronger than the default?

You lose the imperial archers and crossbowmen in S&A. They're powerful but not nonreplacable. The heavy mounted archers are wonderful on paper but they aren't very practical. In return, you get among the best mages in the game, Masters of the Five Elements and the flying Celestial Masters. Your infantries are all crappy but they're usable if supported up by your mages. More importantly, you still have the composite bow archers as your vehicle for early expansion. You even have access to "Dispossessed Spirits" for free. They can help your mediocre infantry a lot in battle.

Default theme of Tien Chi actually feels weak with the vulnerability of their Celestial Masters to Magic Duel. Master of the Way is a good buy but with only one Water and one random, they're hard to use in battle - 2 water and a random or 1 water, 1 nature and 1 random will be better.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are only slightly unlucky, with luck +3 you average 1 hero every sixteenth turn or so.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really. Default T'ien C'hi gets some of the best cavalry in the game (including some of the best sacred cavalry), and they can take order scales. Their better archers, crossbowmen, and infantry are just icing on the cake.

They do play very differently though. I play default T'ien C'hi as an army-heavy nation with good magical backup, whereas S&A lives and dies with its mages.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is a thread entitled "Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells" in the forum, sticked at the top. Or use this link http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...4;t=000459;p=1 and scroll down near the end to Zen's post.

Note not all of the information are necessarily 100% up to date, in fact they probably are not as the post was made Feb. 3rd, 2004, but for the most part it should be adequate. Perhaps someone can make addenum to it including any corrections and V2.08 changes (e.g. Golden Era not included yet).

-Gateway103

[ March 21, 2004, 21:14: Message edited by: Gateway103 ]

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really. Default T'ien C'hi gets some of the best cavalry in the game (including some of the best sacred cavalry), and they can take order scales. Their better archers, crossbowmen, and infantry are just icing on the cake.

They do play very differently though. I play default T'ien C'hi as an army-heavy nation with good magical backup, whereas S&A lives and dies with its mages. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You love cavalry in general? It's hard for me to imagine their crossbowmen and archers as icing on the cake, rather than being the cake http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Different strokes for different folks. Yes, I really do like cavalry in general. Expensive and vulnerable to many things though they may be, I do find cavalry very useful. Heavy cavalry, that is, and the only cavalry that beats the Red Guard is the Black Templar and the Knights of the Chalice. The standard Imperial Horsemen that can be recruited in all fortresses are not too bad either, and the Heavy Horseman combines an archer with high protection (14) with the standard lance attack of cavalry in case of close combat, which allows you to have him very close to the frontline.

Qualification: I do not find cavalry all that useful on its own, as all-cavalry armies are hideously expensive, but as flankers and pursuers that ensure that few enemies manage to flee there are none better amongst the recruitable troops, and sometimes cavalry manages to chew up the entire enemy rear. Cavalry has the staying power and the offensive punch that recritable flying units lack.

[Okay, I tell a lie. Cavalry does not make the best recruitable flanker: Niefel Giants are even better flankers and pursuers, but they are sort of their own Category http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ]

T'ien C'hi heavy cavalry has the considerable advantage that the national mages have paths that enable them to negate several of the vulnerabilities of cavalry. (Arrow fend/storm/mist/anti-magic)

Try Red Guards with a fire-9 or a water-9 blessing.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

I feel that S&A is not weaker and personally is stronger, but that is because I still dont understand the default theme. CMs rock in S&A, and together with DoHFires they make perfect hit-and-runners too.

Oddly enough, I almost NEVER get the (excellent) Master of Five Elements, but stick to the highly mobile CMs, but that may be due to my pretender choice. With two randoms on the CM, I almost always get an Earth fairly soon, and with high luck scales I can also usually get the healing female Hero with nice nature.

And I have learned to live with the troops. The archers are nothing to sneeze at (with wind guide and flame arrow), and I have a use for all the troops except those ridiculous mounted bowmen (let them shoot when guarding a commander!).

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

I think the attraction of the MoFE's over the CM's is that they are an even more fabulous research buy, craft very well, and can plausibly get 2 earth, which enables the EarthBoot/dwarven hammer progression.

I've never seen a CM with 2 earth, and outside of ashkasic record/empowering , there isn't any other way to find those yummy earth sites.

Nobles are MUCH better with Faithful/Lead shield/airshield armor than other non earth combos.

Rabe the Aristocrat Wanna be

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Different strokes for different folks. Yes, I really do like cavalry in general. Expensive and vulnerable to many things though they may be, I do find cavalry very useful. Heavy cavalry, that is, and the only cavalry that beats the Red Guard is the Black Templar and the Knights of the Chalice. The standard Imperial Horsemen that can be recruited in all fortresses are not too bad either, and the Heavy Horseman combines an archer with high protection (14) with the standard lance attack of cavalry in case of close combat, which allows you to have him very close to the frontline.

Qualification: I do not find cavalry all that useful on its own, as all-cavalry armies are hideously expensive, but as flankers and pursuers that ensure that few enemies manage to flee there are none better amongst the recruitable troops, and sometimes cavalry manages to chew up the entire enemy rear. Cavalry has the staying power and the offensive punch that recritable flying units lack.

[Okay, I tell a lie. Cavalry does not make the best recruitable flanker: Niefel Giants are even better flankers and pursuers, but they are sort of their own Category http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ]

T'ien C'hi heavy cavalry has the considerable advantage that the national mages have paths that enable them to negate several of the vulnerabilities of cavalry. (Arrow fend/storm/mist/anti-magic)

Try Red Guards with a fire-9 or a water-9 blessing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I found the contrary - most nations have better cavalry than Tien Chi's, except for their heavy horsemen with bow. Tein Chi's cavalry has low protection comparing to the others. Even Man's regular knights have better stat than them.

I guess the reason is you're playing with high blessed effects, which I usually find impractical. But different people play the game differently. It's no big surprise there.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

I believe the M5E is also immune to Magic Duel which is a notorious weakness of the Celestial Masters (of both normal and S&A).

I think "small" mages like Master of the Way can be used on the battlefield - just don't expect one Master of the Way to perform like a CM or Arch Theurg. A Master of the Way costs as much as eight normal soldiers and will perform roughly at that level. If he kills three or four normal soldiers in one battle he's doing pretty well.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Man's regular knights have better stats? Only if you like MR 10 on expensive units. I do not. I hate low MR on expensive units. There are so many spells, even fairly cheap spells, that can neutralise a small number of dangerous troops if they have low MR. Take Shadow BLast, for instance, which will wipe out a force of MR 10 troops (like standard knights) while only damaging a force of MR 12 troops (like the Red Guard), or the ever dangerous paralyse or soul slay spells, which can rip a cavalry charge to shreds - if you use low MR cavalry. Absent magic and absent blessings, I would agree that Man's regular knights had better stats, but those factors are not necessarily absent.

Likewise, I value high morale on expensive units and especially on flankers, as beginning to flee while you are flanking an enemy that is still capable of fighting is a losing proposition, and any sacred unit gets a +3 morale when blessed. That effectively means that Red Guards have 18 morale - which beats all non-sacred cavalry hands down.

So, if we compare on a nation by nation basis:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Abysia: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arcoscephale: inferior lanceless low-morale cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Atlantis: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Caelum: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">C'tis: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ermor: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Ashen Empire: knights of the unholy sepulchre are decidedly inferior to T'ien C'hi's cavalry - but they do not cost money. On the other hand, they evaporate when the opponent brings along priests. Overall: inferior</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jotunheim: the wolf rider is decidedly inferior</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Niefelheim: no cavalry, but the Niefel Giant beats any cavalry any day and is as swift as slow cavalry. It also costs 115% more.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Utgard: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Machaka: The Heavy, Imperial, and Red Guard beats the Spider Knights any day, but the Black Hunter is stronger than the Red Guard. It also costs 70% more. Even so, Machaka has the edge in pure quality here. (And the Hunter Spiders look cooler)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Man: The Knight of Avalon is powerful indeed, but he is hideously expensive in resources and he is not sacred, which gives the edge to the Red Guard of T'ien C'hi if you use blessing effects. If not, the Knight of Avalon wins hands down</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Last of the Tuatha: the Cu Shee and the light cavalry are decidedly inferior</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Marignon: Those sacred Knights of the Chalice are truly supermen. At their price (29% more expensive than the Red Guard) they had better be. Unit for unit the Knights of the Chalice are stronger, gold piece for gold piece I am not so sure</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Michtlan: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pangaea: the Centaur cataphract is inferior. It has low morale, low damage, and is non-sacred.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pythium: lower morale, MR, damage, and being non-sacred means that I value the Serpent cataphract rather less than T'ien C'hi's cavalry, despite the cataphract's protection bonus and the fact that it lives twice (or rather, the serpent fights after the rider is killed)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Serpent Cult: with the Serpent Cataphract sacred, it is a much better unit. It still suffers from low MR and damage, but being blessed helps its morale and can make it a very strong unit with a blessing effect. This one beats the Red Guard unless you are up against heavy magic</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">R'lyeh: no cavalry</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ulm: Despite their incredibly low defense (9), Black Knights rule so long as they do not face magic. They can face any conventional threat with glee. Against magical nations, the T'ien C'hi cavalry is better though, as there is a lot of difference between MR 9 and MR 12, and blessings only tip the scale further towards T'ien C'hi. OTOH, Red Guards are capital only, and Black Knights beat Imperial Horsemen hands down</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Iron Faith: Black Templars are sacred Black Knights with an extra point of magic resistance, which still leaves them with the low MR of 10. They are better than Red Guard if you do not face heavy magic. On the other hand, they cost 29% more, and if you face heavy magic, they drop like flies.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vanheim: Red Guard, meet your master. The Van is probably the best cavalry in existence despite its low damage potential, because it is exceptionally hard to kill. High MR and defense coupled with glamour means that the Van can survive many things that others cannot. It may only have 13 protection, but you need to hit the damn thing in the first place. Since the Van is also sacred, it can be made into a truly exceptional unit with a good blessing effect. Add to that the cost of 70 gold and 16 resources and the fact that it can be recruited in all castles, there can be no doubt. The Van is the best cavalry in existence. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
In conclusion, I find that preciously few nations have better cavalry than T'ien C'hi, and that most of those that can be considered contenders either have cavalry that is awfully vulnerable to MR dependent spells or suffer from the fact that their cavalry is much more expensive than the Red Guard.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

Peter, there is one area where I will disagree with you. I believe it was:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For Pangaea I think the overall most useful Cavalary is the Centaur Warrior. While if you are doing a broad comparison they probably are not the best for cost effectiveness, but I'd rate them in the top 5.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The one water give Masters of the Way Quickness, effectively doubling their speed for spell casting - very attractive. There are good spells usable at one level of power in most paths. Their problem is the unpredictability of their random, making it very hard to set your research goal for them. Alteration seems to have the most spells usable by level 1 mages, Combustion, Protection, Blindness, Frozen Heart, Luck, Body Ethereal. So, you could in theory aim for high Alteration. Or you could equipped every one them with a Water Ring and aim for "Cold BLast" and "Ice Strke" but that's a lot of research (Water Ring needs Construction 6).

Master of the Deads worth all their gold just for the dispossessed spirits. Spells like "Reanimation", "Revive King" and "Dark Knowledge" make them even more useful. The 3 research points, or 4 with the scale, is another bonus. Moreover, their level can be easily boosted up to 2 by the Skull Staff, which make them even more effective in battle.

So, S&A Tien Chi has some of the best mages in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

Fair enough.
I play with an Earth pretender (Great Mother), so I am not worried about boots -- she makes a hammer, the first pair of boots to slap on my CM/w random earth, and it goes great from there. Usually never get a Mof5E unless I get really bad luck with no-earth-picks with the CMs.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

Never thought of their cavalry as that good, maybe I should give it another go. Odd, I just cant get Default theme to groove for me, while S&A has quickly become not only my hands-down favorite, but one in which do surprisingly better than I normally do. Depending on the map. S&A also has some of the best underwater capabilities of any overland race (cast a Mound king and a few dozen Spirits, and you can go under with good success within the first dozen turns -- not to mention the entire Water deal you get with CMs). Once mid-game is over, and I have not been harried too much, S&A magic really takes off -- in any direction you want. It is also the only race in the game I know of that can forge any non-blood item in the game whatsoever with relatively no effort as long as the Pretender has 2+ earth.

Well I suppose I will never see those national summons available for Default as I had hoped, since I am apparently the only one who feels that they should be made more available but also made weaker.

Any other tips for Default theme? Do you folk normally go Imperial Bowmen with those cavalry types, or what?

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What about the Moose? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What about the Moose? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is some time since I played default Jotunheim, so I do not remember the moose's stats in details.

I do remember that I found its main utility to be as a high HP archer platform, which means that it does not really count as heavy cavalry, since it does not fulfill the heavy cavalry role of flanking and inflicting high damage.

The moose easily wins in the funniest large recruitable unit Category, though, and it might be a better mounted archer than the T'ien C'hi Imperial Horseman, depending on price.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great list, I'd just like to add that pangeas white centaur is great. 70 gold, 11 resources, sacred, berserk(+3), 22 hp, 16 defence, 14 mr, 13 str. Spear, hoof and javelin. The berserk can be really good, increasing the power of both the spear and hoof attack.

Downside is no lances, only 10 attack, 11 prot, 13 morale which probably makes them less effective on killing rearmost archers than red guards.

I did a test of 10 red guards versus 10 white centaurs with no blesses involved, 9 red guards and 1 centaur died. Then i tried it again, two centaurs died. I think the defence makes a lot of difference in this matchup.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">CWs are great too, a non-sacred 40 gold Version of the white centaur.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tried more Last night. The bless effect could make a big difference. You have some (relatively) cheap sacred cavalry and good sacred summonable units. So, the blessed effect could help a lot. I used a Moloch with 9 Fire, Death -1, Unluck -1, Productivity +3, Order +2, 6 candles and the 40 admin castle. The holy units is powerful but I still have a mixed feeling: a Fire 9 Moloch is not a very affordable pretender for Tien Chi.

The miserable 15 protection for the Red Guards still hurt. For example, without blessed effect, I don't know how well they will survive in an one-on-one with normal knights - not to mention Man's better Version. But well, you can't have everything.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly.

If you are expecting a one on one vs knights with no magic involved, then obviously many (though by no means all, morale is still important) other types of heavy cavalry are preferable.

If you are expecting heavy magic, then the Red Guard is probably preferable over the knight, even without blessing effects.

If you are expecting a bit of this and a bit of that and have even a small blessing effect of some sort, say one or two 4s - then the relatively inexpensive Red Guard is your man.

And, as you noted, the synergy with the blessed Celestial Soldiers makes for one powerful melee force.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are only slightly unlucky, with luck +3 you average 1 hero every sixteenth turn or so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's turn 23 with no heros. I thought the chance was cumulative, such that you were *guaranteed* a hero every 17 turns with luck three.

(3%base +3% luck bonus)x17= 102%


Can someone spoil me on how hero acquisition actually works?


Thanks,


Rabe the Oh-So-Lacking a Role Model

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hero acquisition is not cumulative. You get a 3% + luck chance of a hero every turn, as long as supplies permit. So if you have a 6%(w/ luck 3) chance of getting a hero this turn, you STILL have a 6% chance of getting one next turn. It's not going to be 12%. This means you have a 94% chance of NOT getting a hero on any given turn. So after 16 turns, you have a (0.94)^16 = 37% chance of not getting a hero. Hardly a hero every 16 turns or so. After 50 turns, you'll have a ~4.5% chance of not getting a hero. It can happen, but it's not lucky. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Well I think it should be cumulative. Even if at a lower base.

Make the difference between luck and misfortune more discernable.

Rabe the Bummed

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Imperial Consorts are (of course imo) the single best unit in the game. Even against real players and not simply the AI. They are virtually impossible to detect and require a ton of troops patrolling a province to be caught - in truth, i've yet to have a single one be uncovered.

Consorts can shut an opponents' economy down HARD. One consort causing unrest can usually be managed with 80-90% taxes - which cuts income by 25%+. Two will require 50% and the unrest will still build without patrolling. Over three and that province is locked down. You can send them straight to your opponents capital without any fear at all with their +30 stealth. It usually only takes five or six consorts to cut an opponents income by nearly half if placed correctly. Forge Rings of Water Breathing + Flying Shoes (each only 5 gems), and you shut down underwater provinces. I can't play T'ien Ch'i without consorts.

Red Guards are great. Imperial Crossbows are basically the best crossbow unit you can buy. Mages are sacred so cheaper to maintain. Eunuchs are not at all bad to have around once your past the early game (for that extra insurance).

The only mediocre unit is the Prince General, but i still buy them anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

My favorite blessing is Astral-9 for Red Guards; gives them a much greater chance of avoiding 'bad luck' and lets them close ranks. Also means they can charge straight into enemy cavalry and win every time.

Best T'ien C'hi build ive come up with is:

Oracle w/ 9 Astral
6 Dominion w/ Ceremonial Faith
2 Order, 1 Productivity, 2 Growth
Fortified City.

This seems to work very well and feels like it fits the theme nicely.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They have the same stealth as the spies that are available to Ulm or Marignon, but cost 10 gold more. They will be found quite easily in an opponent's capital if the initial province defense is still there. It should only take about 25-40 units patrolling to find it in a few turns otherwise. Black Forest Ulms Members of the Second Tier are considerably more stealthy and also have astral 2, blood 1. They can cast ritual of returning to make it much harder to actually kill them.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually no they don't. Spies have +20 stealth; Consorts have +30. Send a spy to incite unrest in an enemy capital and they are immediately uncovered (i just tested this) - like i said before ive NEVER had a Consort be uncovered.

Members of the Second Tier cost 160 gold and have the same +30 stealth rating. Per gold consorts are much more efficient at causing unrest (obviously). For other uses, perhaps, the Illuminati are better.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have uncovered them on a regular basis with not too many troops patrolling. What I was thinking of was Man's Bards.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh well i haven't played that much in multi so i would assume it were at least possible, but in the game i have played ive yet to uncover a Consort in my territory despite constant unrest reports and patrolling. Although i really can't afford to patrol...

But ive never had a consort of my own be revealed in test games vs. the computer. Up to Hard. So im happy to use them, and they're cheaper than Bards as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I think reveal is:

Spy automatically revealed if ProvinceDefence/Stealth => 1

I don't know how many troops you need to patrol to uncover *X* stealth with *Y* P.Defence.

[ March 24, 2004, 03:51: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

It's a random chance of detection, not an automatic threshold. Some stealthy units have stealth +0 and can sometimes escape detection in tough provinces where others are sometimes captured the first time.

PvK

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

[quote]Originally posted by SelfishGene:

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice: Spy automatically revealed if ProvinceDefence/Stealth => 1

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would surprise me, considering most stealthy units in the game have a stealth value of 0.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Well I think it should be cumulative. Even if at a lower base.

Make the difference between luck and misfortune more discernable.

Rabe the Bummed </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The difference IS discernable, only there's a large uncertainty on when you'll get Heroes, if any.

With Misfortune 2, you only have about 19% chance of getting a Hero in your 20 first turns.

Misfortune 1: 33%

Luck 0: 46%

Luck 1: 56%

Luck 2: 64%

Luck 3: 71%

Also, with the high luck Ratings, there is a decent chance that you will see more than one Hero in that amount of time, or maybe 30 turns. Not bad, if you have good Heroes.

Of course, most of the time just your Heroes are not a good reason to take Luck. But the difference IS significant.

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did not say the difference was not statistically significant.

I said between the high variance and relatively modest increases for positive luck, that the current implementation makes it very difficult to tell you are getting a benefit.

This is IMHO, ... ahem... Unfortunate


Rabe the Punny Guy

Re: Tien Chi Default
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would disagree with you completely here. About 1/4 games with order 3 misfortune 2 will have at least one major setback in the first 10 turns, a setback that easily compensates for the 80 nation points you got for the scale.