Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

I'm missing something. I started a game w/the CotS theme, and while I like it I'm missing how it's any better than the base theme, other than trading sailing ability for superior mage-priests.

What's special about CotS? Do they get a better spell later on like Tien Chi?

Btw, if I could petition for something in the next patch, as a newbie it would be putting these tidbits in the nation selection screen. So when (for example) I click on ulm, see a special theme called 'Black Forest', I can click on that and see that they can summon vampires and then be able to see the actual spell so I can plan my pretender accordingly.

-Jeff

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why does a modded theme have to be "better" than its base theme? Marignon already has two other non-vanilla themes...more than any other nation. CotS is there for flavor, and for a fun time on maps with lots of water and few or no water nations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

CotS has better mages.

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's debatable. They have air 2 and astral 2 instead of fire 3 and astral 2.

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because it costs design points.

If it were a 0 point theme, then it shouldn't be better or worse than the default theme - just different. But a 50 point theme needs better units or commanders to make up for the tradeoff you will have to make in pretender, fortress, scales or dominion strength to pay for those 50 points.

Also, if a theme has scale requirements that are bad for that nation (or bad in general, like Turmoil - still hurts more than the points it gives), then it should get more powerful theme units/commanders to make up for that too. This is why Blood of Humans is (almost?) universally regarded as weak - it has *worse* units than standard Abysia, for a point cost *and* an unfavorable scale requirement.

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because it costs design points.

If it were a 0 point theme, then it shouldn't be better or worse than the default theme - just different. But a 50 point theme needs better units or commanders to make up for the tradeoff you will have to make in pretender, fortress, scales or dominion strength to pay for those 50 points.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see your point, yes. However, I guess I'd say that perhaps you're paying for the Sailing ability on your commanders in a nation which typically has quite little access to Water magic unless the pretender takes it.

Then again, I haven't played much CotS at all, so I probably shouldn't even comment.

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's debatable. They have air 2 and astral 2 instead of fire 3 and astral 2. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">2 air 2 astral 1 random actually, which, IMO, is better. They also have the 1 air 1 astral chartmaker for only 90 gold, which makes for a good communion slave.

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

I probably shouldn't have said "better", but maybe 'unique' 'different' or 'special'. Right now it's different mages and sailing ability on many of the commanders. Personally, I'm not impressed with sailing ability when there's water breathing and amphibians in the game, but that's probably a lack of experience on my part.

-Jeff

Edit: posted too soon. Let's say I made an 'island' map (imagine earthsea archipelago or greece/med or whatever), what races would generally be viable? Obviously CotS, ermor, atlantis, r'lyeh, and Vanir. Am I missing any that would work well?

[ March 23, 2004, 16:50: Message edited by: jaif ]

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well - Man, vanilla Marignon, and really any nation with relatively plentiful sacred units would work well *if* they happened to take Water Cult. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

Sailing is a very different advantage from underwater ability. On some maps, it can be very useful. Not just for islands and hops over water to otherwise-blocked continents, but also when there are seas which border on many land provinces - this can let you sail an army a land-distance of many provinces in one turn. So the value can depend a lot on the map.

PvK

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

Seems to me that CotS should start with a Missionary, not a Friar (since they don't recruit Friars anymore).

Also - Holy Pyre seems unsuitable as a starting spell for the theme, given that they have no national mages capable of casting the spell, at least not without using gems.

In fact - Zen made this same point back in January, suggesting that CotS should have Holy Pyre replaced by something castable by the national mages, in the "Petition for Marginon (sic) CoTS Theme".

Kristoffer O's response was, "Good Point".

Wha' happen? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 21, 2004, 16:14: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Quite possibly. The Missionary isn't Stealthy, is he? I could see problems with giving a Sailing Stealthy Priest as an initial commander.

OTOH, Raptor Caelum gets Seraphines with Province Defense.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Holy Pyre, yes, that's a problem. Probably replace it with that low-Evocation Astral attack spell.

Personally, I greatly prefer CotS Marignon to any other theme (or base) Marignon. I think that's because Air and Astral magic are my two Favorites. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But really, CotS's advantage is that it is the only nation to get Air-2/Astral-2 mages. Well, there's 15.625% of Arco's Mystics, but I wouldn't want to bet on 15.625%. Get enough Chartmakers together, and you can outdo Caelum's High Seraphs at Orb Lightning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The other nice thing is that none of your mages are capital-only.

And you don't lose access to your Inquisitors.

All in all, CotS is a very nicely done theme, to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hmm, I guess, given that arch-theurgs are Air-2/Astral-3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Marignon CotS - What\'s the hook?
 

Arch Therugs are better, but don't they cost 380 gold? A fully developed COTS communiuon is truly frightening, with all the astral (paralyse, astral healing, antimagic, control, etc), as well as the air (orb lightning, shockwave, thunder strike). You also still get a 4-power priest, with some fire capability... as well as often getting astral/fire mages through national heroes. This means the wind guide/flaming crossbows are more common, and devestating even in a storm.