Most Efficient Researcher
 

Considering monthly maintenance costs Vs. reasearch points, who are the best research commanders?

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

I've heard it's the Sage, but I haven't confirmed. That seems likely, not counting things you can summon for no gold maintenance, nor heroes, nor the use of magic which improves research.

PvK

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

Daughters of Avalon, Sages and Masters of the Dead are my favorits. Daughters are better with a magic scale, otherwise Sages beat almost anything.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

The Lore Master is also pretty impressive.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

In general, the cheapest per point of research (other than independants/heroes/etc that you can't depend on getting every game...) are your weak, 1 path mages. This is because every mage character (other than sages) have a base of 3 research, +1 per point in each path. So, if you can hire a 1 path, 4 research mage for 70 gold, or a 4 path, 7 research mage for 300 gold (made up amounts, but fairly accurate in general)... 2 1-path mages are half as expensive as a single 4-path, but have 1 point higher research. This effect is maginified considerably with a positive magic scale.

With a large drain scale (-3), it turns the other way around. Your 1-path mage would have 1 research, while your 4-path would have 4. You'd have to hire 4 1-paths to equal a single 4-path, and they'd cost you 20 more gold.


So, in general, your cheapest national mages are your best bulk researchers. Obviously if you can *afford* to buy the bigger ones, do so, but building cheapo national mages at 2-3 castles a turn is a good way to start the research juggernaut going a reasonable price.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

Thanks.

Now here is the question that will show just how new I am to this game ...

What nation has the Sage, Daughters of Avalon and Lore Master?

In general is there a list/spread sheet somewhere that lists units and their abilities and nation?

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

Lore Master, Sage are found from sites and Lore Masters are also from Events.. Look for Library's for Sages. And Citadel's of the Lore Master's for Sages/Loremasters.

Daughter of Avalon is Man (Base).

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Typically, yes, but not true of all of them. There are many that have zero bonus research (plus one per point in each path), or some research bonus number less than 3. For example, Pyromancers have 1 research, not 4. Others with zero research bonus include Spectral Mages, Amazons, and Witch Doctors.

PvK

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pyromancers have 1 fire, and therefore 3 research in a magic 0 dominion. Other than Witch Doctors, the other mages you identified all have the standard amount of research. Are you sure you weren't playing with drain?

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

Laugh! Yes, you're right - I am playing with Drain - I'd just forgotten about it. My mistake.

PvK

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

It seriously depends on your Magic/Drain scale...
The more the scale is "magic", the more the weak 1-path mages are good researchers... With a Drain scale you need better ones.
The national paths also play a role, with Air, Fire and Death having good research boosters.
AFAIK with limited -1/+1 scales the usual winning couple should be Sages (due to bonus) and Appr Theurg (sacred).With Drain scales Ulm Smiths are obvisouly fine, more so when given Fire lanterns.
Spectral mages are also quite good : no upkeep, access to death (Skull mentor).

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

IIRC, the base RP of a Sage is 7, for a cost of 80 Gold.

The Daughter of Avalon has only 5 RP in a neutral dominion, for the same base cost, but since she's Sacred, she only costs half the upkeep.

It takes Drain 3 for two Daughters to have the same research potential as a single Sage, otherwise they are always higher. So, unless you're doing your research in a Drain 3 environment, Daughters of Avalon are always better in the long run (for research) than Sages. Plus, 2 Daughters will eventually get experienced and get a +1RP each, while the Sage will get a single point.

Of course, Daughters are capital-only, but in my book, anything that makes Sages uninteresting for research is a good buy (but that may be biased by the nations I usually play).

The Vaetti Hag of Jotunheim (55 Gold, not capital-only for 4 RP in a neutral environment) is also a good researcher; she will have a slightly better RP-to-cost ratio, since 7/80 is slightly less than 5/55, as soon as you're not in a Drain environment.

(I hope I don't have my numbers wrong...)

It would be nice to have a chart that lists, for each Nation/theme and each possible Magic/Drain scale, the best RP-to-cost mage available. Of course, you'd have to balance this against the upkeep-free undead (mostly, take initial costs into account)...

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

A contender for best researcher has to be the Arcoscephale Golden Era philosopher, with 5 research for 50 gold. They've not got any magic, however, so they're useless for anything else.

Note that sages are worth buying even for a maximum drain Ulm. 4 research for 80 gold is considerably better than 5 research for 140 gold.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

For me its definitly Sages. ^^ Forge a couple of Skull Mentors (?) and there u go.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you have access to sages there is no reason to use skull mentors. They are better off with gem generators.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither Fire nor Earth magic give research bonuses as far as I know. Master Smiths are worth 5 RP just like any other standard 3? mage in Drain 0. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I always assumed the RP of a mage was the sum of its Magic paths, plus a fixed amount (assumed to be 3), with a few having a special bonus. What's the formula?

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make that 3 a 2.

Add:
+4 for Sages and Adepts of the Metal Orders (except the Iron ones who get no bonus - bug?).
+5 for Wizards.
+6 for Lore Masters.
+8 for the Great Sage pretender.
-2 for Witch Doctors

Adjust for Magic/Drain, except Ulm Smiths count Drain +X as zero.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make that 3 a 2.

Add:
+4 for Sages and Adepts of the Metal Orders (except the Iron ones who get no bonus - bug?).
+5 for Wizards.
+6 for Lore Masters.
+8 for the Great Sage pretender.
-2 for Witch Doctors

Adjust for Magic/Drain, except Ulm Smiths count Drain +X as zero. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm. The Vaetti Hag has 1 ? for magic path, and 4RP. I think the revenant has 1D, and also 4RP, but am not sure about that. Maybe 4RP is the minimum (in a neutral environment)?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow - Do you really forge that many gem generators that you don't have enough slots to spare for research items? It seemed to me that all the research bonus items are essentially upkeep-free research (the best kind!). One skull mentor or lightless lantern works out as a lot cheaper than a sage, in the long run, IMHO.

-LintMan

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When I check the Hag in the recruitment screen I can read "Research ability: 3". Either your Hag has +1 due to experience, or she's in a magic+1 dominion.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When I check the Hag in the recruitment screen I can read "Research ability: 3". Either your Hag has +1 due to experience, or she's in a magic+1 dominion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whoops - I was probably an exp bonus. I can't check it right now; I was relying on my memory, which matched PhilD's post below saying the Hags have 4RP.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make that 3 a 2.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, so I wasn't that far off, but still - my calculations of this morning are to be shifted by one for the Magic scale (what I thought was Neutral was Magic 1).

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow - Do you really forge that many gem generators that you don't have enough slots to spare for research items? It seemed to me that all the research bonus items are essentially upkeep-free research (the best kind!). One skull mentor or lightless lantern works out as a lot cheaper than a sage, in the long run, IMHO.

-LintMan </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my case, I rarely have all researchers decked out in misc items, but I don't agree that the research bonus items are that much cheaper. Gems are a limited resource, while Gold is easier to find. Unless you're playing the Fever game, of course, but then upkeep and costs get more and more irrelevant.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think it's necessary to load researchers down with research booster items, but having some seems nice.

It guess it depends on what you'd be doing with those Fire/Air/Death gems otherwise, and how averse to upkeep costs you are (and whether cheap researchers are available to you). In my current game, I had lots of extra fire and air gems, because I lacked any mages of those types (except for a couple of sages with a single level in them), and also could only buy 1 sage per turn, so spending those gems to ramp up research power seemed like a pretty good deal.

-LintMan

PS - I know you can alchemize fire gems to gold; can you go the opposite way and convert gold to fire gems? Then you'd be able to buy the fire gems to build the lightless lantern.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, that would potentially give Earth and Fire a huge edge over other magics.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, Master Smiths should have 6 RP, since they have 1 Fire and 2 Earth. But the Sage is still better (and is a source of magic variety for Ulm, although a limited one).

And of course, the Philosopher is a good researcher. And he's not completely useless for anything else - he's got a small leadership value.

[Edit: typo]

[ March 24, 2004, 12:01: Message edited by: PhilD ]

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither Fire nor Earth magic give research bonuses as far as I know. Master Smiths are worth 5 RP just like any other standard 3? mage in Drain 0.

Re: Most Efficient Researcher
 

Phil makes an excellent point however:
Experience matters. So this is another factor which will favor lots of smaller mages as opposed to fewer powerful mages in general. I often forget this, but it is true; in longer games, you will get 2, 3, and even 4 stars on some mages.