On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

How do effective Dom2 players use their Pretenders in combat in early game expansion?

Particulary, how strong a Pretender does one need?

What spells are most commonly used on these pretenders for protection?

What types of items are generally required for pretection before sending your Pretender off into battle?

These questions are mainly to figure out how to prevent the Pretender from racking up afflictions, or dying.

How many standard troops ought to be brought into battle with the Pretender, if we are talking about basic missile troop and footman type of units.

Finally, do you send the Pretender in straightaway after buffing with any necessary protection spells, or do you try to get a few rounds of offensive spell casting in as well?

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

There's sooooo much here.

Firstly, let me start off by saying I very much doubt I am an "effective" player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But I wanted to answer your questions with another question, before offering my own pitiful advice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

What nations are you thinking of, specifically? Pretender choice/Magic paths are chosen within the framework of a national identity.

Any spells and items which protect your pretender from either picking up afflictions or being hit at all are good - Lucky Coin, Pendant of Luck, Body Ethereal, Protection, Mistform, etc. Regeneration and reinvigoration items are also quite helpful.

In general, if I'm trying to build an SC I go whole hog - I like to be able to send the pretender in by him- or herself.

For solo SCs, I really like the Wyrm with Astral 5 (casting Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, and Body Ethereal on himself before the enemy gets there), the Nataraja (with some Ice Swords and a Lucky Coin), and the Earth Mother. The Vampire Queen is outstanding, too, because of all her great innate abilities...so you can spend your forging time on other items for her.

But as I said, I don't know if I would consider myself good. I win more than I lose against the AI, but that isn't saying much.

EDIT: Oh, the Shedu and the White Bull make really good solo SCs, too.

[ March 25, 2004, 22:06: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

The vampire queen with 2-3 earth perhaps 2-5 astral is great. Being immortal it has no problem with dying or afflictions, and it can kill most indies with some alteration research and ironskin-personal luck-earth might-attack.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

Why not just pick a Red Dragon? You get a great "static" Pretender in the form of a sage plus a flying fire-breathing killing machine that can take out entire armies with ease.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The red dragon has not many item slots to power him up, and he might gain afflictions even in early game, depending on the indipendents strength.

Imho there are only 2 ways to have your pretender doing melee at the beginning of the game:

1. Pretender is immortal/recuperating with the first beeing better.

2. Your Nation has strong nature magic for fairy queens and gift of health.

Sadly, those points often go hand in hand with each other. You will have nations like Pangaea with both and Caelum with none.
I actually tried the Nataraja with Caelum, 4 ice swords, some air armor (cant remember which) and some other items you get early game. This worked for 2 or three fights until he lost one arm, and went downhill from here.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And even less than that will do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A Vampire Queen with a black steel plate armour (an Ulmish master smith and many other earth mages recruited in round one can make one in round two) and orders "attack rear" will destroy nearly any group of independents you throw her at, even strength 9 independents. You can have her conquering provinces single-handed from round 3, and if she ever dies, just make sure you have a new set of armour ready so you avoid wasting turns. Add other cheap items (a horror helmet is another favourite) as circumstances allow, but don't waste resources on expensive items or research just for her sake in the early game - she does not need it to conquer.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

It also depends on the starting spell of the nation. If you are playing Abysia or Marignon for instance, you can take advantage of the offensive starting spell by making a pretender with high fire-magic. These types of battle-mages are also less likely to get afflictions, but of course need some backup to keep the opposition at a distance, unless you go with the Phoenix which does not mind going down in flames with an affliction or two, since it is immortal like the vamp queen.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are not kidding! Wow is she good. She whoops on basically any independent. She also crushes almost any computer army. Once in a while the computer may get you with a bunch of flying magic weilding units ... but how often does that happen?

What really makes her go (IMO) is a combination of a life sucking attack, etherial so hard to hit, and 0 encumberance. The 0 encumberance really makes a difference at the start of the game. Many other SC's have the problem of running out of endurance but she just keeps killing.

She's my favorite SC right now. Anyone else want to share their favorite SC's? Maybe something is better (in the early game) than the vampire queen, if so I want to hear about it!

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Natarajas are a better choice for Arco: The fact that the Nataraja is not immortal and is rather prone to afflictions is entirely curable by your Arco priestesses, and a wide variety of forging paths on your national mages gives you a good selection of equipments to choose from.

The Vampire Queen is definitely a beastly SC chassis, with a host of innate abilities and a full set of equipment slots.

The Vanheim Allfather is another good one: Mounted, so armor encumberance can be ignored, a low base encumberance value of 2, which drops to 1 with experience (and is unaffected by armor), and built-in Glamour/Mirror Image and flying.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Isn't it usually past the beginning of the game once you have access to fairy queens and gift of health?

Personal regeneration (low level, 2 Nature I believe) or a Ring of Regeneration help quite a bit in preventing afflictions. They can usually do weaker independents no problem since they flee fairly quickly but they might get an affliction or two on something stronger.

And anything can be a SC with Arco since their priests heal afflictions.

Oh, and anyone with a high level of death magic and level 3 Enchantment can take weaker independents with just Raise Skeletons. A Prince of Death with 2 level 2 death mages (positioned slightly to the rear and to the side of the PoD to avoid stray arrows) backing him up can handle pretty tough independents by themselves with just that spell. It's like an instant army.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

Huzurdaddi --
Caelian ice weapons do, in fact, count as magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif So there's your flying, magic-wielding opposition right there...

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

Does anybody use those immobile pretenders? In one of my first demo games I used the Glyph. I didn't realize at the time that there's a very good reason why it was zero points. All you can do with them in the opening few turns is research, right?

PatWx

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

Immobile pretenders certainly have their uses. The are typically cheap and have high starting paths and dominion while having low path costs, which means you can get either stronger ritual magic, better blessings, or better scales. Best for longer games, though, where their magic and dominion can really shine.

Don't choose the Sphinx, however. It has no redeeming abilities whatsoever as it is inferior to the Sacred Statue, the Monolith, and even the Oracle - but costs more.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's actually exactly what I was talking about! I was shocked when they crushed my pretender in about 2 rounds of combat.

So taking her is a little of a crap shoot (with good odds!). Against almost anyone she rules in the early game, but she has problems against Caelian.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A lot of people seem to like the Natarajas. However for early expansion I don't think it's a very good choice. He needs a lot of weapons to get going. That's like 20 water to make 4 swords. That's a good while to wait for most nations, and he's pretty gosh darn vulnerable without those items.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup he looks pretty good. However he looks weak to me compared to the vamp queen. He costs more, yet it sure looks to me that he will have a hard time taking high strength independents. I guess I SHOULD try him before flapping my mouth off.

So let's hear some more early game (and if you wish late game) SC's. Let's see if anyone can de-throne the vampire queen!

I'll put in a vote for the Son of Niefel. He's cheap, he's big, he's tough. With boots of boots of Behemoth he's super, sadly that's not going to happen for some time since Jotunhiem does not have access to earth gems ... pitty. So while I think he has potential he is not going to be beating any strength 6+ independents by himself for a little while.

[ March 29, 2004, 18:17: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

The Vampire Queen really does rock...

...but I also want to put in my vote again for a Wyrm with Astral, researched up to at least Astral Shield (but Body Ethereal doesn't hurt either) with a Pendant of Luck and a couple of nice helmets. He can really eat indie provinces like M&Ms...and he also shares the VQ's ability to attack water provinces unhindered.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The VQ is not amphibious and cannot attack water provinces, unless you buy her ranks in water magic....which works for anyone, VQ or not.

The VQ is actually a poor amphibious attacker early in the game, because she has poor hitpoints and protection, and will not survive the round 1 Triton dogpile without items, since there is no time to cast spells. Wyrms are much better at this, but may rack up a lot of unpleasant afflictions from it.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The VQ is not amphibious and cannot attack water provinces, unless you buy her ranks in water magic....which works for anyone, VQ or not.

The VQ is actually a poor amphibious attacker early in the game, because she has poor hitpoints and protection, and will not survive the round 1 Triton dogpile without items, since there is no time to cast spells. Wyrms are much better at this, but may rack up a lot of unpleasant afflictions from it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bah. Of course you're right, Norfleet. Mea culpa. I just take Water 2 on my VQs so frequently that I forgot she wasn't amphibious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I always try to take the Icthyid (sp?) water provinces before tackling the Tritons, too. VQs with Quickness and Breath of Winter can be really, really devastating solo combatants.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

VQs are really nice... but I'm not sure that they're ALL that... still only got 23 hit points. And no protection to back her up when the odd hit does get through the etherealness.

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're forgetting about the boost in HP pretenders get from friendly dominion. 40+ HP is plenty against regular indies when you're also ethereal.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...which is why the VQ works best with a nation like Ulm, who can give immediate access to full Black Steel Plate.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hand of Dust and Hand of Death...make short work of even toughies like heavy cav. Taking 2 Water (relatively cheap, especially since Blood and Water go well together i.e. Ice Devils) gives you early access to Breath of Winter.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really, I find that immortality is just sort of icing on the cake. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I rarely lose my VQs, sending them out solo to kill 8-strength indie provinces.

[ March 29, 2004, 22:30: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're forgetting about the boost in HP pretenders get from friendly dominion. 40+ HP is plenty against regular indies when you're also ethereal.

Quote:

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...which is why the VQ works best with a nation like Ulm, who can give immediate access to full Black Steel Plate.

Quote:

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hand of Dust and Hand of Death...make short work of even toughies like heavy cav. Taking 2 Water (relatively cheap, especially since Blood and Water go well together i.e. Ice Devils) gives you early access to Breath of Winter.

Quote:

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really, I find that immortality is just sort of icing on the cake. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I rarely lose my VQs, sending them out solo to kill 8-strength indie provinces. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, Black Steel Plate would do the trick... but who else besides Ulm has that as option in the early going?

Don't get me wrong, she's fantastically powerful... especially early. But she has two glaring weaknesses: she's undead (spells and weapons made specifically to f-up her day), and she's fragile (relative to other SCs).

With a suit of armor and against indies inside your own dominion, this is not a problem... but if your expansion can't exceed your own dominion spread, how much advantage are you really getting over other SC pretenders?

It really doesn't take long for a Void Lord or Nataraja to get up and running... and they can fight effectively in other dominions... so they can pretty quickly catch up to whatever gains you might have made due to the VQ in the first 5 turns.

All IMHO of course... and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord... nice size 6 with 88 hp, protection 14, Encumbrance 2, cause fear(+5), and an extra life drain attack... natural paths of Astral/Water... yummy.

Of course he's R'lyeh only, so that pretty much invalidates my point about the Black Steel plate being Ulm only... but, whaddya want; I'm a hypocrite.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As an added bonus IIRC, the life drain tentacle is damage 10, where the standard life drain is damage 0.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As an added bonus IIRC, the life drain tentacle is damage 10, where the standard life drain is damage 0. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, but you don't add strength to the Void Lord's tentacle... so it's a straight 10, and thus it's actually weaker than the VQ's 0+13...

If you did add strength... *shudders*

[ March 30, 2004, 00:26: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes it is. But one affliction alone is not that bad (depending on the affliction of course). However, multiple afflictions are very bad, but it will take your SC Pretender some time to accumulate these. By the time this is the case you should have access to those mentioned spells.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

[quote]
Yeah, Black Steel Plate would do the trick... but who else besides Ulm has that as option in the early going?
[/qoute]

Well through alchemy many races have quick access (by turn 5), although she will have to do the crafting. But it's not a bad thing to have her be a little of an earth mage too, more protection.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you should try her out a little. Unless the dominion is quite negative there are very few independents that can take her. I know that I dismissed her due to her hit points. My mistake!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What do you equip him with to allow him to survive against those nasty independent defences in the water realms (at higher independent strengths)? Black plate I guess is a possibility. But it would be a killer on the encumberance side for him.

Further talking about the VQ having a weakness since she is undead, he is a magical being and that means that there are some weapons (hello moonblades) which will kill him pretty quick.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you are giving the Vampire queen earth magic there is no need for armor, just research alteration 2/3 and cast stoneskin/ironskin before attacking for 15 or 20 protection. With earth2 you can cast earth might too which is nice to do some more damage and thereby more hp back from the lifedrain.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The low hitpoints would normally be very risky since she can die quick even with lifedrain and regen, but with immortality and flying she can just try attacking again the next turn.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

Based on the comments here, the number of Pretenders that are optimally effective in melee in the early going seem fairly limited: dragons, Natarajas, VQ, maybe Phoenix, White Bull and Shedu?

How about using Pretenders as magical artillery? Is this more or less common than using them as SC, and is it more or less effective, or about the same?

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you are giving the Vampire queen earth magic there is no need for armor, just research alteration 2/3 and cast stoneskin/ironskin before attacking for 15 or 20 protection. With earth2 you can cast earth might too which is nice to do some more damage and thereby more hp back from the lifedrain.

Quote:

I think you should try her out a little. Unless the dominion is quite negative there are very few independents that can take her. I know that I dismissed her due to her hit points. My mistake!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The low hitpoints would normally be very risky since she can die quick even with lifedrain and regen, but with immortality and flying she can just try attacking again the next turn. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is all true, however a Void Lord can be just as potetent by Turn 5-6 as a your Earth Magic VQ. More so, in fact.

I can have Alt 3, Enc 1 (maybe 2)... and 2 Ice swords...

Thus: (Ouickness)(Body Ethereal)(Personal Luck) (Breath of Winter)

With a protection of 14, Defense 20 (thank you ice swords), HP 88, Etherealness and Luck, Breath of Winter and Fear... encumberance 2, with a life drain attack.

And of course that's only the beginning... regeneration will be there next turn... astral shield soon after... add a Horror Helmet and... well, you get the picture.

My major point is, that having an "invincible" SC by turn 6-7 is not that hard.

VQ's are great, but I don't think they're as uber as they're made out to be.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But of course, the VQ is available to virtually everybody, whereas the Void Lord is available to only one nation. So that is a massive difference there.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't forget about the Earth Mother. Some of the Titan-style pretenders are reasonably effective in the early game as well, depending on forging and research.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am sure there are people who do this - I tend to usually either build for supercombatants or site-searchers/forgers. But a site-searcher could certainly be used as artillery, given the right paths and the right research. The trouble with this is that you won't really get much out of them in the early game, because your research won't be high enough for some of the really effective artillery spells.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I use the Void Lord as an example, because I am most familiar with R'lyeh. Ironically enough, I experimented with it because the VQ is not available to them... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

But I imagine somebody who's familiar with a Nataraja SC, could get them fully equiped in a similar amount of time...

The Bulls are nearly unstopable beasts with only Enchantment 2 researched.

To me, effectively battling Indie Str 6+, is not much of a challenge... tons of pretenders with a little research or a few items can tear through indies.

So when I look at a SC, I look at how effective they'll be against other SCs. Which is where the VQ seems really lacking to me... 23 HP, 0 base protection ...

Etherealness is worthless vs. magic weapons... and that shiny suit of black steel plate is worthless vs. armor peircing... and that undead nature means that there are a bunch of weapons that do x3 damage to her...

Off the top of my head, I can think of the Flambeau which is high damage, armor peircing, and x3 damage vs. undead... and available at construction 4.

Of course the VQ is immortal, so she can come back to die again... uhm, great.

Maybe Norfleet can come in and show me where I'm wrong about this, but I just don't see it.

[ March 30, 2004, 18:01: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed I so cast stoneskin/ironskin. Great little spell. And earth might adds to her strength which is nice.

However I find that I can forge the armor with alchemy about the same time that I get quickness/stoneskin. And then I am ready to go, and you protection is near 30. That makes it quite difficult for indeps to do any damage at all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find this of limited use early on since the spell power is just not there. Maybe once you get way up the tech chart it becomes possible but that is a long time to wait!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is a lot of research for turn 5 I think it may be possible for turn 6 (which means attack on turn 7). I have not played R'lyeh but that seems like a lot of research (considering that you lose 2 mage-turns forging).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A fine list of spells (especially Breath of Winter). Hard to pull off in the ocean though. Once you reach land you may indeed be an SC though. You do accumulate afflictions though. The VQ does not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you will be taking nature as well? What are your scales and what are your paths? Having astral is a big hole in a SC due to magic duel. If you astral is not above 6 people can send cheap casters at you (I hope that the die is not open ended in magic duel ... but I don't know, if it is you are never safe, that's horrible!).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know about them being uber since that is ill defined. I do think that they are the best early game super combatant. And it's shocking to me. Like I said due to her low HP I dismissed her at 1st.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is one sick spell I have to say. Almost makes me want to take astral on an SC. Almost!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't you already have like horror +15 or something silly like that?! How much do you need http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes I like anything with trample! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I have not tried her in a while though I found her of less effectiveness than I had expected. I should try her again to see if with what I now know (or think that I know!) if she performs better. The lack of flying will hurt though.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">20 water. That's a good amount. Going to be hard to get that *really* early for most nations (hello atlantis).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enchantment or alteration? I guess the regen would really help him. I usually find that Alteration is the SC line of choice. But given his magic (and the silly cost of other lines for him) I guess it makes sense.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree. Against high strength independents I find that all pretenders need some help, it's just a matter of how much help, and that translates into how many turns. And I find that the VQ wins that race. And in some cases by a wide margin.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Certianly. And this is not her strong suit (she's not bad against most, but against some she may have problems). But this thread is about the early use of pretenders in combat. And it opened my eyes to the VQ (thanks all!).

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

Huzurdaddi - you mentioned a reluctance to taking Astral on an SC, probably due to Mind Duel...but I think you might reconsider and stick Astral 5 on a Wyrm. Talk about an SC! Research up to Astral Shield and let him rip through the indies. It's really amazing...

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fine in SP, less fine in MP where one of the astal nations will have a lineup of 6-10+ cheap L1 astral units all with orders to mind duel.

Apart from the threat of battles, I have not tried it, but I assume i sucks big time to be mind-dueled to death in an assassination attempt by a R'lyeh Star Child. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you're right... it's attack on turn 7. And all I'm doing is recruiting mages, researching, and patrolling with the starting army to combat raised taxes.

It might be possible to do it a turn faster by alchemizing your astral income to fire gems... but it's probably not worth it, since you're gonna need those when you get to Construction 2.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">3 Water, 7 Astral, 3 Nature
With scales of: 3 Order, -3 Sloth, 3 Magic
Dominion:4
0 Point Kelp Fortress

The dominion is quite low for an SC, which is why I like the 88 base hp... so I can fight outside it... and just build temples and cheap indie priests... and I make an assasin or scout my prophet, to extend dominion ahead of my Void Lord.

The castle is not much of a weakness, as resources are largely irrelevant to R'lyeh... and you actually end up with a mausoleum if you beuild a fortress above the waves, so it's like a free 40 points.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alas, it's only +5... so +10 makes it the equivalent of a Wyrm wearing 2 horror helmets. Which makes me happy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is no doubt that the VQ is the fastest out of the gate... most definately with Ulm. And her immortality allows you to be a bit reckless with her initially... which is fantastic for someone just learning how to use an SC...

Though, if they don't slap some armor or her or learn to cast stoneskin, they are going to be disappointed.

EDIT: Magic for Void Lord pretender was off.

[ March 30, 2004, 19:37: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tell that to one of my friends' super Molochs with exceptional equipment who lost an arm to my crossbowmen - in melee. He swooped directly into the formation and let them suicide in melee attacks against his 16 AP fire shield, but some of them got lucky enough to hit him for a few points of damage and one of them cut off an arm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It may be unlikely, but it does happen if you get attacked by enough troops, even if you are ethereal, lucky, and have exceptionally high defense and protection.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tell that to one of my friends' super Molochs with exceptional equipment who lost an arm to my crossbowmen - in melee. He swooped directly into the formation and let them suicide in melee attacks against his 16 AP fire shield, but some of them got lucky enough to hit him for a few points of damage and one of them cut off an arm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It may be unlikely, but it does happen if you get attacked by enough troops, even if you are ethereal, lucky, and have exceptionally high defense and protection. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

I'm sure it can happen... but I like my odds with 3 attacks per round, plus quickness, plus breath of winter, plus astral shield, plus fear +10... I'm pretty confident that the attackers that aren't dead, frozen, paralyzed, or running away: can't hit or hurt him. I guess I'm "reckless". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And anyway, that's partially what the nature is for... either Gift of Health or a Fairy Queen mid game.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am sure there are people who do this - I tend to usually either build for supercombatants or site-searchers/forgers. But a site-searcher could certainly be used as artillery, given the right paths and the right research. The trouble with this is that you won't really get much out of them in the early game, because your research won't be high enough for some of the really effective artillery spells. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you've got the path high enough for it - Fire Darts. Evocation 1, armour piercing, amount of darts goes up with path level, though path-independent low damage forces you to research up to Flare before going up against heavy cavalry. Plus, you can get the scorching started from turn 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Of course you need some screen of troops and this isn't answer for all -strategy, but if you're looking for an artillery support from the start, the darts are an option. With fire9 as an added bonus: flaming weapons bless effect.

I'm quite uneasy trying to thug my way with expensive units (dying, wounding, etc) and found that one approach a bit more forgiving than a melee pretender when I had to quickly come up with something for a MP game few months back.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, like I said, I believe that it can happen... but I have yet to see it happen vs. indies... in dozens off tests against random str 9 provinces. That's good enough for me.

And the Void Lord can't go blind, so he's at least immune to that particular ticket to the SC retirement home. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually my 1st SC was a wyrm with astral. I was shocked to see how well he did in combat. I actually thought that something was wrong with the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However after reading how Zen is so afraid of astral on SC's I decided I should try something else.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm ... increasing taxes and patrolling on the 1st few turns. That may in fact be a good idea! I've never done it since I thought that the population loss from higher taxes would make it not worth it ... I'll have to try it out! Good tip!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well My VQ gets them all of the time (weirdly) and she has protection in the 30's, is etherial, and regenerates. However her defence is no where near 20. Oh and silly me I don't give her a coin of luck most of the time (cuz I'm a tard).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice astral! If Mind Duel is not open eneded (and I think it's not ... I hope it's not) then you are safe from those cheap level 1 dudes. Good decision!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is that right? Wow, that's a pain for those aquatic races. I suppose that means that you have to forge sacks of wine quite commonly!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes ULM would be turn 3. That would be nice. Pythium (my current fav!) is turn 5. No idea on the other races, I figure they will take a touch longer.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it reduces it by 90%, actually so yes indeeeddy!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sucks to be him then!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But that follows from my experience with my VQ (note: I do not have astral shield).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">B
leech whenever I use these all I see is them raining everywhere but on the enemy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now you are talking this is a great bless effect!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? it says that he starts of "blind" but I thought that was just window dressing and for flavour.

Anyway to summarize what we have so far:

The VQ is an excellent combat pretender by turn 3 (if ulm) or turn 5 for many other races. She can fly which gives strategic options. However she is not the most uber of all pretenders in 1v1 combat.

The Void Lord is an excellent combat pretender who takes about 7 turns to take off (if you research hard). He also requires pretty harsh scales to be truely excellent (due to cost of magic paths) however he will obliterate any independent, and will do well in 1v1 combat later in the game.

Anymore good SC's to add? With accompaning magic paths, items, and turn by which he/she becomes Ub3r.

[ March 31, 2004, 01:52: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Astral 5 vs astral 1 is a near guarantee that the wyrm will win every duel.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, luck is pretty crucial (an additional 50% miss rate beyond the 75% from etherealness)... and so is defense... since the only 100% sure way to not get afflictions is to not get hit! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The reason why you are getting more afflictions is because the chance is related to what percentage of your HP the damage you receive is. So the lower your hit points, the more likely you are to get an affliction.

Not a big deal for a VQ though.

I feel that things like Astral Shield and serious Fear effect are very important, because they reduce the number of attacks that come at you dramatically...

Being a walking blender is helpful too (understatement)... but that's hard to balance with not falling unconcious due to fatique... because I'm not sure what the exact numbers are for what that does to your defense and protection, but I'm certain it's really really bad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Oh, and I never invade a Lizardman province with my SC... curse is, uhm, irritating.

[ March 31, 2004, 03:22: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's see what happens against a cheap astral 1 mage. Let's assume that on a tie the attacker wins. Let's also assume that the die is not open ended (if it is open ended, and I hope it is not, then the chances of dying are always quite high and there is no defence).

Given you roll a 1, then if he rolls a 5 or 6 you die.

Given you roll a 2, then if he rolls a 6 you die.

Total probability of death: 3 / 36 or 8% of the time your SC will die. Or put another way it takes on average 12 level1 astral mages are required to kill you.

For level 2 astral mages the chances of dying are 6 / 36 or 16%, and it takes on average 6 mages to kill you.

If on a tie nothing happens then you are pretty safe, only a 1 / 36 chance of dying against level 1 mages and 1/12 chance of dying against level 2 mages.

So level 5 is not great defence. Level 6 defence is great. And level 7 is SUPER.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL. I agree. And the astral shield really helps too.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did not know that it works this way. If so well that makes a big difference!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually this is a big one IMO. I find that many times my SC's (not the vamp queen) go unconcious due to fatigue. This is one of the main reasons I like her. Perhaps I do too much buffing. You really should see if you can work earth into your pretender for Earth Might. But your fear of +10 probably saves you from really long fights.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Astral 5 vs astral 1 is a near guarantee that the wyrm will win every duel. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really.

I have a hard time imagining anybody massing mind dueliests without somebody carrying a Banner of the Northern Star or casting Light of the Northern Star to boost the horde of duelists to astral 2.

Which gives you a 5 to 2 situation. As Astral duel is determined by adding 1d6 (closed) to the astral rank with ties killing both duelists, the odds of killing off the Wyrm are actually pretty good.

Using this comparative chart, we see that with the +3 advantage, the Wyrm has a 16.725% chance of dying each duel, for a 1-(1-0.1675)^n risk of dying against n duelists. For n=6 that is 66.7%, for n=10 the risk of the Wyrm dying is 84.0%.


On the other hand, we might be in the situation that there was no Banner of the Northern Star or (more likely) one in which the Wyrm also boosted by 1 (e.g. Power of the Spheres, Light of the Northern Star), leaving the Wyrm with an effective +4 advantage, which translates into a 1-(1-0.08402)^n risk of dying when facing n mind duelists. For n=6 that is 40.9% risk of dying, for n=10 it is a 58.4% risk.


Near guarantee that the Wyrm will win every duel? I think not. And if the side massing low-level astrals began using communion before mind duel, I really don't know what would happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

An advantage of 6 makes you immune (until the opposition communes or boosts), an advantage of 4 on an extremely important unit (such as your pretender god) makes you a target.

(Note that the risks are very slightly off, as the percentage chance of dieing was based not on actual probabilities but Saber Cherry's statistics based on 2,000,000 tries)

[ April 01, 2004, 05:26: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

Forgive me for asking. But is it really likely that someone would bother building lots of astral mages and telling them all to mind duel....when most of the time that your fighting the enemy won't have any astral mages in their army, or if they do - you can't be sure of it beforehand ,so you'd be wasting your time (unless you're at war with an astral nation, but there arn't many of those...)

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I knew my enemy had an astral 5 Wyrm, you can damn well believe that I would attack the army where the Wyrm was with an astral squad of death. Killing off the enemy pretender god is nearly always an exceptionally good idea and worth a lot of casualties, even more so when it means knocking magic points off a unit with decent magic skills.

And if I do not know the stats of an enemy combat pretender god before it comes to serious battles between our forces, that should be reckoned a serious failure of information gathering on my part. Forewarned is forearmed.

I am not advocating having all your low-astral mages constantly on mind-duel as action #1 (though that does make sense at times), but certainly as a viable strategy when defending a province the medium-skill astral unit is moving through or when attacking the province it is stationed in. Worst case, there are no astral opposition in the province you attack, and your astral mages will use other magic than mind duel sinse there is no legal target for the spell.

Astral 5 (against human opposition) is just too little to feel safe unless you are an immortal for whom dying is just a way of life... Or death, as it may be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now, if the astral 5 Wyrm is equipped with a Starshine Skullcap and a Crystal Coin (taking up two out of its four precious equipment slots, but needs must when the enemy can field astral mages), and casts Power of the Spheres and Light of the Northern Star, THEN it can probably mind duel just about anything (except for a high communion) to death and a low-level astral death squad would get a nasty surprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If fighting an astral pretender, is there any reason not to have every astral mage you send at it scripted:

(Communion Slave)(Communion Master)(Mind Duel)

Besides being 3 actions, increasing the chances that you mage will be dead before he can mind duel...

Other than that, the only reason I can see not to do it would be if the "spell affects every member" effect of communion had meant that if one member of the communion died from a mind duel, they all did.

But I don't think that's the case is it? I can't seem to find much information on it...

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have heard it said on these Boards that for purposes of mind duel communion does not raise astral level.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I *really* hope this is true, or as I said there is no defence against Mind Duel.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's funny! I think that Saber Cherry has become addicted to Monte Carlo simulations! It's only 2 dice, which means that there are only 36 possibilities. It's not horribly difficult to calculate the exact odds! But the chart is good enough for most purposes.

Anyway this is why I was saying taking astral 7 on your original pretender was a good choice. Was there any other reason that you did it? Of course you are stuck since that pretender chasis has astral already built in.

Re: On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat
 

For my part, as far as a Magical Attack pretender, I have yet to see a better one than the Phoenix. I typically go for a Fire9/Air6 Phoenix, especially if I have sacred troops. In any event, once you have Flame Darts, you're pretty much good to go. Air Shield goes up first round if there are archers, and then you just wade through them. If they get to you, you have nice 'personal range' effects to deal with them like Burning Hands or Shockwave (is that what it's called?) and whatnot.

After getting Flame Darts, you can either continue to get better options, or you can switch to get Flame Shield or more defensive options.

Anyway, my thoughts on Artillery Pretenders.