Undead retreated?
 

I assassinated every undead commander in a province and broke siege. The undead retreated because they weren't mindless. This is with SoulGate Ermor.

Was it intended to have the disposessed spirits and velites not mindless?

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Yes. Almost all of Soul Gate's units have very good morale but are not mindless. Ghosts and the like have always traditionally been thought of as intelligent.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahem. A souless is a body without a mind, a spirit is a mind without a body. So what would be a mindless spirit? In case you didn't know, "spirit" and "mind" are the same word in many non-european Languages.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

"Dispossessed" in "Disposessed Spirit". That indicates if it ever had a mind, it doesn't have one now.

Anyway, not to start a debate, but I HATE SG ERMOR!!!

I hate it like like nothing else. The hate which I have for it is so strong that if I had any more hate, I would go mad, and start murdering my clients.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

HELP ME!!!

I have a few turns to research! I have 7 Dominion in my province. Ermor has 3 temples surrounding my province but my dominion is still holding up well so far.

--------------------C'TIS--------------------
GEM -- INCOME/OWN
Death -- 24 (Well of Misery)/24
Nature -- 3/3
*I can probably send help for gems.*

PATH LVL -- RP LEFT
Conj 8 -- 923
Alter 2 -- 39
Evoc 0 -- 20
Cons 0 -- 20
Ench 3 -- 87
Thaum 1 -- 40

COMMANDERS (MAGIC)
1 Pretender (8 Death)
1 Prophet Assassin (1 Nature 1 Death)
2 Lizard Kings (4 Holy)
3 Assassins (1 Nature 1 Death)
6 Shamans (1 Astral 1 Nature)
7 Mages (1 Nature 3 Death 1 Random)


-------------ERMOR (Human Player)------------
-Has about 350 Spirits and Legionaires surrounding my castle (probably without commanders, but he could easily put up 1 defence per province to provide one)

-Attacked my Last province (home province) Last turn

-I assassinated all 4 wraith commanders and made all his undead retreat to surrounding provinces

-It looks like the only commanders he could have left is a "priest" (don't know which kind), 1 wraith, and a pretender.

-The pretender is right next to my castle. It is a lich queen.

-I don't think he would attack my castle for a few turns for fear of losing his undead in the surrounding provinces. Instead, he may try to regather his undead. (Note his lack of commanders)

[ March 26, 2004, 01:51: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A "dispossessed man" is a man who possesses nothing, but is still a man, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A "dispossessed man" is a man who possesses nothing, but is still a man, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes, a mindless one.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you're totally spooned.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since you invested so heavily in Conjuration and so little in everything else, and since your gem income is limited to death, your best option is:

(1) Research Conjuration 9.

(2) You need 5 level-4 death mages, if needed research a bit Construction and forge Skull Staves to meet that requirement.

(3) Now that you have your level-4 death mages, use them cast 5 Ghost Riders each turn on your own capital, and have your remaining mages and the Lizard Kings patrol there.

(4) If your mages and priests survive this exercise for, say, 10 successive months, they should be considered fit and able to deal with everything Ermor will throw at them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Undead retreated?
 

And/or use less powerful mages casting Pale Riders? And/or use priests. A Wraith Lord and/or Eater of the Dead might serve well, if you can keep enough other units around and still amass gems. Looks grim, though.

Is Ermor led by the AI or a human?

PvK

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt I have enough time!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't have time to research to lvl 4 construction, but I have allies that can give me skull stalves for death gems.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Patrollers will get attacked by Ghost Riders. I don't think I can research to lvl 9 conj on time.

Ermor is a human player. I was thinking of using solar rays?? I could research to lvl 2 evoc in one turn. But I don't think I have enough astral Users for it to be effective.

[ March 26, 2004, 01:57: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Argitoth, I don't think Nagot was being serious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Undead retreated?
 

. . . (useless post)

[ March 26, 2004, 03:19: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Just use your famous "disintegration strategy", which works against everybody. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

...Sorry for that one, I could not resist it...

It would be tempting to say that you get exactly what you deserve for focusing so narrowly on conjuration 9, but I am more interested in how you managed to assassinate four Ermor Wraith Commanders in one round - that is an impressive feat and, considering it was done in your dominion, a fairly heavy blow to your opponents death gem economy as they are gone forever. Well done - now how did you do it?

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He doesn't know Disintegrate! His Conjuration focus has left him devoid of Disintegrate, an Alteration 8 spell.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">C'tissian Empoisoners are quite adept at assassinating undead leaders, having death magic ability: Argitoth had Thaum-1, which easily enables him to cast Dust to Dust repeatedly. That'll make it fairly easy to blow through all but the most heavily protected and strongest undead leaders.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I noticed. That is why I teased and added the http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right, and if additionally they have boots of quickness they can do major damage. It is just that I expect SG wraith leaders to have a bodyguard of 5 ghosts each (SG gets ghosts for free every now and then, and this is an excellent use for them) and they can do major damage to most assassins.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1 Wraith - Protection of the Grabe
1 Assassin - Eagle Eyes

2 Wraith - Protection of the Grave
2 Assassin - Dust to Dust (miss)

3 Wraith - Protection of the Grave
3 Assassin - Dust to Dust (miss)

4 Wraith - Protection of the Grave
4 Assassin - Dust to Dust (miss)

5 Wraith - Moves in to attack
5 Assassin - Dust to Dust (hit) (wraith down to 12 hp)

6 Wraith - Moves and attacks
6 Assassin - DEAD


I tested it time and time again, and never had 100% success. The way I defeated 4 wraiths was giving my assassins 5 death gems allowing them to cast "Raise Skeletons" or "Raise Dead". They summoned around 30 undead each and that was enough to kill a wraith. I have tested and tested until I came up with the perfect solution. Note: I've tried many different scripts using Dust to Dust. Absolutely no script with dust to dust would have 100% success.

[ March 26, 2004, 13:35: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

I guess the question is...

does SG having units that don't dissolve when leaderless, with its many other advantages, give it such a large advantage over AE as to make the latter theme unlikely to be played?

(i.e. is this the intended behavior?)


Rabe the Neither Rare or Done Well

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AE gets many more troops than SG does, have cheaper unholy-4 priests (23 death gems vs 35), gets sacred troops in abundance (SG gets NO sacred troops except the rare Wailing Lady), and does not require a magic scale.

They play rather differently.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

I've decided to go for lvl 9 conjuration. Nations are helping me survive on every part of the map. I don't think I'll be vanquished from the game just yet.

[ March 26, 2004, 17:10: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it's better to go for Thaumaturgy 6, from which you get "Whither Bones", an undead killer. It's long shot but it's better to go for Conjuration 9, which requires even more research points.

You pretender has 8 death, he could keep casting "Summon Ghost". It'll be 9 gems for 8 ghosts for him. Life drain should be magical weapon and so reasonably good versus the undeads. If you had 10 turns, that would be 80. Quite a formiddable army. They're probably still not enough to turn the tide but it's the best you can spend your time and resource on right now. Keep assasinating his commanders might help... SG's commanders is quite expensive.

But it's, at best, a hopeless struggle. Good luck.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I strongly disagree, hence I am trying my best. Is life drain a ranged attack? Are ghosts all that strong against lots of undead? I'm just summoning a bunch of bane lords. I guess I'll use 9 gems for ghost summoning and use the rest for bane lords. Those bane lords are very strong.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Maybe you should add some pale riders into the mix. Their Good fodder and fairly decent fighters.
Your pretender should get 20+15 a pop. 35 ldhorsemn a round are not too shabby (and in my experience better then a single bane lord.)

But I have no real experience against soulgate ermor....

Good luck anyway.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I strongly disagree, hence I am trying my best. Is life drain a ranged attack?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Touch attack. Same as the Vampire Queen.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Given the hitpoints of SGs troops, I would expect each ghost to kill a unit per round of close combat except when facing apparitions or other ghosts, which typically make up a very small part of the ethereal armies.

Note that I have not tested this. It is based on the conjecture that the Ghosts life drain attack counts as a magic weapon and thus bypasses ethereality.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If your good friends (hint! hint!) send you charcoal shields and rings of reinvigoration as gifts, this may be the wiser choice. The 7hp fire damage is enough to kill most of SGs troops and if you rely on bane lords, you are going to get mobbed - and mobbed by troops that can paralyse and steal strength (though I do not know whether the latter affects undead - it probably does).

The easiest way to kill hordes of SG troops in melee is to make them commit suicide.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Life drain attacks inherent to monsters -- ghosts, vampires, horrors, et al -- are generally melee-only. The life drain spell, on the other hand, has some range. Wielded against undead, neither provides the usual healing and reinvigoration side effect.
Ghosts are not terrifically strong against undead, particularly undead with magical attack forms since the magical weapons ignore etherealness. I'd probably prefer undead archers, for their ability to hit the undead masses before meleeing, and since banefire arrows are conveniently magical; it might be possible to do fire-and-run attacks with them.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

To do that I'd have to divert my already-low-research to enchanment. My hope is to get Army of the Dead, lol. That will truely be harsh.

[ March 26, 2004, 19:19: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might be on to something... but what do you mean by this?

Also, I will have at least 7 bane lords and some ghosts before I am in danger of the undead storming my castle, and right now Ermor is having a really hard time getting an army to my castle. (he's too scared to send his VQ to collect his undead in enemy dominion it seems). don't forget i have many mages who will be able to cast dust to dust and solar rays (destroying a single area of undead, not just one target). It might not be much, but added all together I bet I have a good chance of holding my ground for a few battles.

[ March 26, 2004, 19:27: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might be on to something... but what do you mean by this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just another reference to the fire shield/regeneration combination. The great weaknesses of SG undead (with the exception of the wailing lady and the leaders, obviously) is that they 1) don't do all that much damage per attack and 2) have few hitpoints. Their strengths are 1) their small size which allows them to mob units, 2) their unconventional attacks which can nullify their opponents physical attacks, and 3) their ethereality which makes them hard to hit.

The fire shield/regeneration combination takes advantage of their weaknesses and nullifies most of their strengths.

It would work even better with a naturally regeneration monster like a troll lord.

[ March 26, 2004, 19:37: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think he mean use charcoal shileds that give a fireshield, so the undead will hit your troops and die to the fireshield.

Note that long weapons with magic effect can go just the same thing when wielded by unit that has a lot more attack skill that the attackers.

Flambeau is lenght 3, lighning spear is lenght 4.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Bane blade is length 3 and the lords have 14 attack.

CHARCOAL SHIELD
5 Earth, 5 Fire

-5 Protection
-2 Defence
-Fire Shield

[ March 26, 2004, 19:50: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I apologize. I've forgotten about their undead status...

Somebody has to check whether the life drain of ghost is effective versus SG undeads. They're undeads but they're not inanimate or lifeless. Most of the weapon of SG require a check versus MR. Ghost's MR is quite high. That will be a plus.

For fodder, it's probably easier to just used "Dispossessed Spirits" that you've already researched. 4 gems for 15 of them. It's a good buy. Since you also get nature, you can crank up the protection of Vine men or Vine Ogres. They're lousy junk. But they're cheap. There is no point fighting mass of undeads with elite troops. It's your priests who will be doing the job any way.

Bane lords are usable but you need some way for him to kill the ethereal undeads in massive number before being overwhelmed. SG's dispossed spirits will be extremely nasty in this case, because after enough hits, they might eventually paralyze your Bane Lords. I think they can even paralyze mindless summons like Winter Wolves - don't ask me why http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . "Charcoal Shield" might indeed the only economical way.

The battle will be cute as it would be an two almost identical armies of undeads fighting each other http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

What I meaned hopeless is more because: if you're down to the Last one or two provinces, his troop production will overwhelm you sooner or later unless somebody else step in and attack him now.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Caelum, Jotunheim, Pythium, I think Man, and soon T'ien Ch'i will be attacking Ermor.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is the most diplomatically inappropriate thing ever posted in a public place.

Ye Gods, but you're an idiot, Argitoth.

Edit: Actually I take this back. It's actually quite clever to sabotage everyone's relations with Ermor, and entirely in your interest to do so.

Its still unspeakably asinine, though. /edit

As for the actual assertion,.. Ermor and I have perfectly peaceful relations, or at least we DID. ;(

I'll thank you not to presume too much from death gem donations for the common good.


Celestial Rabe the Appalled

[ March 26, 2004, 20:48: Message edited by: rabelais ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Caelum, Jotunheim, Pythium, I think Man, and soon T'ien Ch'i will be attacking Ermor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you posting other players' plans here? I sure hope you have their consent in revealing them, otherwise it is a diplomatic faux pas of the highest order. Nations have burned for less.

On the other hand, if it is an ingeniously planted piece of misinformation intended to sow dissension between current allies but future enemies, my congratulations.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I strongly disagree, hence I am trying my best.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Aye, that's the spirit. Never give up, never surrender!

Re: Undead retreated?
 

hohOWAhwHAWAAAHHAAA!!! Flames FrOM AFAR!! flAMES fROM AfARR!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ March 27, 2004, 00:13: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Aren't you inside a castle?

I can't believe so many people gave you free gems to cast that. Ermor's not that big a threat.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I only have my home province right now.

They didn't give me that that many gems. I had most of it myself. Well of Misery will also boost everyone's economy except Ermor's. I'm the host and if I die, I'll still have to run the server, that will stink.

[ March 27, 2004, 01:54: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Undead retreated?
 

Why are you worried about fires from afar then?

I got killed ridiculously early in the first game I hosted. Kind of annoying to have to host a game I wasn't in, but it's unfiar to everyone else not to.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It was a joke! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif i don't think i can explain the joke. It's like, flaming... you know? flaming a thread?

Re: Undead retreated?
 

If you're "dispossessed" then you've lost something, but that something is not necessarily your mind.

Re: Undead retreated?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well you aparantely lost your FACE!!